NC166 Julius Caesar

[Noble Zarkon]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Julius Caesar of Rome, whom we last played in NC CXI which was also the last time we played the Romans. The Romans start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Julius is IMPerialistic and ORGanized. The combination is good for warfare, in that IMP gets out those first few settlers faster and leads to faster acquisition of Great Generals, and ORG makes it less expensive to have a large empire.
  
• The UB: The Forum, a market that gives +25% Great Person Points, a nice boost for a non-PHIlosophical leader.
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Praetorian, a stronger swordsman widely viewed as the best UU of its era.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, high sea level.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped one strategic resource for food in the BFC. Picked the opponents to try and give some interesting variety.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC number Leader Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[dutchfire]

Yummy! Wet corn and pigs and early happiness (ivory). Might try to give it a go at Immortal, would be the first time on that difficulty. Settle in place looks to be the best option, tech agriculture first. Then hunting or Bronze Working?

It also looks good for a Praetorian rush if we have iron. What's the usual approach to Praetorian rush? Worker techs -> Iron Working directly, or do you first want to get your economy up?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Reserved.

 

[dalamb]

SIP on a plains hill seems like a no-brainer. I've been told standard strategy for Rome is BW > IW > hunt for iron, but with no fish, Ag is going to have to come first.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

It also looks good for a Praetorian rush if we have iron. What's the usual approach to Praetorian rush? Worker techs -> Iron Working directly, or do you first want to get your economy up?

I've been told standard strategy for Rome is BW > IW > hunt for iron

Praets are strong enough to take a whole map if you play it right, personally I would get a reasonable economy up with 3 cities pumping out troops when the time comes. Don't delay too long but get the worker techs and your cottages up and running. you do need IW fairly early so you know where the Iron is (this is NC so there will be Iron somewhere reasonably nearby).

 

[duckstab]

SIP does seem to be the way to go here. I'll accept the mapmaker's assurances that Iron isn't too far off because putting it the other side of the continent would just be too evil.

I'm thinking of going Agriculture->AH->Hunting->Pottery->BW->IW. Or maybe postpone Pottery, if working one or two Ivories yields enough commerce. Any thoughts about this?

Playing on Noble, standard speed, with huts/events on.

 

[aitkensam]

I'm thinking of going Agriculture->AH->Hunting->Pottery->BW->IW. Or maybe postpone Pottery, if working one or two Ivories yields enough commerce. Any thoughts about this?

Playing on Noble, standard speed, with huts/events on.

Probably could skip AH too and mine pigs (unless you uncover lots more AH resources). Wet corn is a good amount of food.

I'm always tempted to go straight for Alpha and backfill IW, but I guess if you're going to self tech IW for anyone then it should be for JC! Also, if you're playing Noble then the AI could take a while to get IW so teching it seems good.

I will give this a go on Imm later too. Looks like a fun start.

 

[Pangaea]

Have played to 300BC, on Immortal. Quite fun. JC usually is

Went Agri -> Hunting -> AH -> BW -> IW. Hunting for a little extra commerce before AH. AH wasn't really needed I suppose, but in any case, I wanted to tech IW myself to know asap where iron was.

Spoiler :

I was unlucky with settling. Settled two spots to the south before getting IW, Sitting Bull put a city to the east, and then he got Stonehenge. I was just roading to the iron, after putting down a fourth city for the sole purpose of grabbing that iron, and then his border expansion stole it. GAH!! Whipped a monument and eventually took it back, but I lost at least 15 turns on that accident. Got out some Axes instead, and Barrackses.

Assaulted Hatty in 475BC, and in 300BC all her 6 cities are captured and she is no more. Don't have Currency yet, and we're bleeding some SERIOUS money. -28 at 0%. Ooops!

11 cities this early without Currency spells trouble, no two ways about it.

 

[duckstab]

To 1000BC

Spoiler :

Been pretty straightforward so far. I did delay IW because I wanted to hook up the pigs and get Pottery. It turns out I haven't been able to build many cottages yet so that's mainly been of value for granaries so far. Haven't really needed cottages due to the Ivory in any case.

Because I didn't go straight for IW, I'd settled 2 cities before I found the iron just off to the east. I cranked out a settler and just hooked it up a few turns ago. Am now gearing up to build a bunch of Praetorians and take out Gandhi and Hatty at least. SB, I'm not so sure. I know Dog Soldiers are a pain even for Praetorians, and his archers are going to have CG I at least. OTOH Cahokia is on flat ground and this is only noble. Thoughts?

My big problem now is a shortage of workers. Hope to pick up a few from my conquests.

View attachment Anatis Confodere BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Pangaea]

Played a bit further, to 600AD.

Spoiler :

Research was practically at a standstill, but with changed tiles here and there I managed to snail my way to Currency, where we finally got our heads above water. Had so many Praets that I figured it was better to try to kill somebody more. Sitting Bull was backwards, not near Feudalism, so I went after him despite Dog Soldiers being tough buggers. Took more time than expected, but in 600AD he had just one city left, so we peaced out for some techs. I got 6 workers in the last city I took, which is always a great sight!

Still well behind in tech, but once this land gets properly online, the economy will hopefully improve loads. Fantastic with cheap courthouses that can be 2-pop whipped.

Monty has been at war with Gandhi for a long, long time, but it doesn't seem like he's getting too far - hasn't taken a city yet. Otherwise it's been peaceful.

Oh yeah, had to laugh out loud when I got Pyramids in 500AD. Was supposed to be failgold building, but nobody ever built the thing. So that was great news really. Rep will help a lot with research. Can't believe it hadn't gone by 500AD on Immortal though. Usually goes well before 1AD. Sitting Bull had built the MoM, so that's mine now

 

[RavenousX]

Spoiler :

Immortal/Normal Speed

I struggle with early rush games so my game was not ideal by any measure - I was pretty conservative early on. It helped having a lot a really low unit spammers nearby. I am sure someone really experienced could have taken the map in the bc's. Note for future runs: get to feudalism quicker.

First went after Hatty but I started a bit late as I was trying to get my cities on-line first. Took her out but I was late enough that Asoka got Feudalism and vassaled her with one city. So after I killed her I had to turn towards him but my economy was in trouble so I razed a city, took another and then of course Monty attacks. So I had to peace out with Asoka.

Capped Monty after bring my stack around. Meanwhile Sitting Bull randomly attacked after a one-turn plot. So I after finishing Monty off I brought my stack back around and took out sitting bull with trebs and elephant and praet.

Then I went back after Asoka and capped him and got to steel to take out a pretty advanced Ghandi. That was enough for a dom win. CR3 cannons are really good by the way...

Some screen caps below.

 

[SiGG]

I think i'll throw my hat in the ring to get a bit of help with my game. I am playing on noble, looking to improve!

I also chose to settle in place. Other than the defensive bonus, the plains hill gives you an extra hammer in your capital?

 

[aitkensam]

I think i'll throw my hat in the ring to get a bit of help with my game. I am playing on noble, looking to improve!

I also chose to settle in place. Other than the defensive bonus, the plains hill gives you an extra hammer in your capital?

Yep, and don't underestimate that extra hammer! Start of the game is key so having that hammer in your first city means 12-turn first worker instead of 15 and hopefully the start of a big snowball

 

[dalamb]

Monarch, Epic, BC 4000-215

Spoiler :

Expanded peacefully for too long; Gandhi got to 60% culture in Delhi and lost one praet per defender in 2 of his 4 cities, leaving too few to take the rest comfortably -- especially given that Monty declared on me while most of my praets were off busy in Gandhi's territory. Backed up to just before the war with Gandhi and will go after Monty for now, though he's a farther target and will likely hurt my economy until I can whip courthouses. Just finished Construction so will have cats next time I attack a high-culture city.

Decided I needed a decent economy before trying a praet stomp, which from the above may have been a bad idea (standard advice I've heard for Rome is BW > IW right away, though Agr was needed just for food). Tech order was roughly Agr > Hunt from a hut > BW > AH > Wheel > pott > IW, finding it's in a not particularly good location. I build a city right on top of it to minimize the chance of losing it. Then myst > medit > priest > writ > alpha > (arch/sail from Asoka) > curr > CoL (got confu) > (Masonry from Asoka, with 60G, monotheism from Gandi plus 50 gold) > math > constr. Somewhere in there I got Polytheism from Hatty and tech'd Aesthetics for trades.

Current territory:

Spoiler map :

I've explored the rest of the world, except Monty's territory (didn't want OB when he was worst enemy of most of the world) so know where most of the targets are. I can bribe Hatty to attack Monty fairly cheaply (CoL for 50 gold plus war), but am not sure how much help she'd be.

I'm in good shape, though I'm not a particularly good warmonger and may tire out before Praets go obsolete.

 

[Flipantropo]

Spoiler :

Played this on Inmortal. Sitting Bull settled right on top of the iron to the east before i got IW, and the other closest source I could see was to the north, deep inside Indian territory. Gandhi was the leader in score, he had founded Buddhism and spread it long and wide. He was everybodys friend, except for that feathered lunatic. I built a bunch of Axemen for the conquest of India while building walls in my southern cities for fear of an Aztec invasion. Then I got really really lucky as Gandhi decided to solve most of my problems, by launching a combined Indian/Egyptian sudden attack against the Aztecs.

So while my enemies were busy fighting one another, I had little trouble conquering the indians to the north. The best prize was Delhi, once i built the Mahabodi the selfless Buddhist pilgrims gave the city like 30 gpt. The glorious Roman army was almost succesful in the liberation of India from that tirant Gandhi, but the usurper, hiding in the last city loyal to his illigitimate government, called his friend Zara of Ethiopia to support his struggle for injustice and oppresion. Soon after that, the foolish Sitting Bull decided to join the Axis of Evil, forcing His Imperial Majesty, God Walking Among Men and Light of the Arians to graciously kiss Zaras Royal Butt for a temporary cease-fire.

After getting His Foolishness Sitting Bull to undertand that all I have always wanted is peace in the realms of men, i could go back to the Path of Virtue and resume my crusade against the Indian usurper and his Ethiopian masters. Military action was justified: the Indian people had already suffered enough. Meanwhile, outside the lands of what is Right and Civil, a new axis of Evil was forming, little did I know of its true dimension. Montezuma, leader of the barbaric Aztecs and his puppets, Hatshepsut and Foolish Bull, decided to try and challenge the will of the gods by launching a pitiful invasion of Roman lands. But those in the true land of Purity and Lollipops had nothing to fear, for those smelly cowards knew not how true warriors fight- with rifles.

So His Supreme Excellency, Loved by Many, Feared by All, finally fulfilled his birth right and brought peace and joy to the realms of men. That happened around 1800 AD, I had distributed my many great generals between 2 cities which were pumping out units with 4-5 promotions nearing the end.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

@Dalamb

Spoiler :

I advocated getting your economy in shape before going to war but I think you might have overdone it, on Monarch you should have been able to take the whole map with Praets.

 

[dalamb]

@NobleZarkon:

Spoiler :

I expect so. I'm not too clear on what else I should have done other than "go for IW sooner" and "attack pre-currency" (the latter from someone's comment about the difficulty he had mid-conquest before currency). Unfortunately most posters don't go into enough detail on their early games, so I don't have other people's examples to learn from.

 

[Pangaea]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

That might have been my comment, as I had to limp to Currency after taking out Hatty. Got there after some microing of tiles without strikes, and at that point I had so many Praets (30-40 I think), so decided to go after SB. Did that and haven't played since, but once all those cities come online, perhaps I'll have enough research to begin to make up the lag behind in tech of the others.

As for my early game, I went Agri-Hunting (commerce)-AH (boost from Hunting)-BW-IW. At that point I saw iron was outside my first three cities, and SB got it thanks to border expansion from Stonehenge. Eventually I won it back, but it took time, and I couldn't settle on top of it.

Getting to Currency post or during the war can be a pickle, but I'm not sure waiting until Currency is online is necessarily the best either, as you risk the AIs getting Longbows (at least on Immortal, and surely Deity). SB didn't, which is why I attacked him after Hatty, despite his nasty Dog Soldiers.

Building up for that early war was done with heavy chopping and whipping. Think I had three workers, who were basically busy chopping forests. Since there was a delay due to missed iron, they had pre-chopped a good bit of it, so once I got iron, it was pretty fast to get out a lot of Praets. In addition to chops, I tried to time it so that cities could two-pop whip Praets, almost finishing two in two turns. That way you quickly get a big army, and Praets in the BCs will normally stomp somebody pretty hard. I also got up barrackses in those first cities, so they come out of the gate with CR1. Soon enough they have CR2 and 3, and at that point are almost unstoppable, even for shock axes.

 

[aitkensam]

Played on Immortal up to 1AD (more detail than normal )

To 1000BC

Spoiler :

Opened AG->Hunting->BW and city builds went Worker->Warriors->Settler (size 3)->Warriors->Worker (size 4)->Settler (size 4). Worker farmed corn->mined pig->built 2 camps->moved to next city. First city (2760BC) went to the south, 1N of Cu, revolt to slavery while settler en route. Worker farmed FP*2 (joined by second worker), then mined Cu.

Binary teched IW (2160BC). Next cities went 1SW of NW gems (2000BC), to get gems/Cu in first ring and later help cap build cottages, and 1NW of iron (1720BC), to secure iron, share caps corn later and get bananas long term. Workers improved special tiles and did a bit of pre-chopping as I had no other worker techs yet...

When I settled 3rd city, Sitting Bull had already settled 4E1N of iron so I wasn't worried about losing it to him and wanted to get gems site first to help my tech.

Next techs went Wheel->Pottery->Writing (1520BC). Workers put a few cottages down and did some more pre-chopping. Cap got started on a library - growing slowly cos no pigs... Other cities did granaries. Think I had four workers by now. And a couple of barracks and an axe or two cos I ran out of builds before pottery.

Started building praets and binary teching to Math. Workers still mining/cottaging/pre-chopping/roading to frontline. Warrior scouting revealed some of Gandhi's and Hattie's lands. Gandhi's looked greener so I decided he would be target.

Math came in at 1000BC and 975BC I got a double worker steal opportunity on desert iron so DOW'd Gandhi.

To 1AD

Spoiler :

Praets weren't quite in position when worker steal appeared, but his cities fell in 925, 825 (Delhi), 750, 675BC. Mostly archers, couple of metal units. Workers chopped and roaded. Think I got 5 workers from him in total, so up to about 9-10 and 8 cities.

900BC Zara got Alpha. Traded him IW and Math for it. Pretty lucky. Traded for Masonry, Myst, AH, Poly, Med by 700BC when Currency came in (thanks to city capture gold and riverside cottages). Self-teched PH. Sold it for gold to encourage people to tech Monarchy.

Halfway through Gandhi war I decided to take Hatty too so started sending some praets south. Also tried to catch a barb city by western fish but Monty beat me to it.

DOW'd hatty in 675BC, same turn as GS born in cap and made academy. Her cities fell in 600 (Thebes), 525, 500 (4W of Thebes, tundra, razed), 325, 250BC. Also nabbed a barb city in NE (pig, iron, rice, silk) in 375BC.

Around start of Hatty war I noticed Oracle was still available so tried to get it in Delhi. Got built 450BC and I had 4 chops ready to go to finish it in 425BC. Nevermind, more praets...

Monty demanded 120 Gold from me. I gave it unwillingly, maybe I shouldn't have... but then he dogpiled Hatty so all good. He took one city in W.

That was her down to one city, but some time earlier at around 550BC Sitting Bull had demanded 260 Gold while I was teching CoL (in at 475BC) and I declined. He started plotting so I made peace with Hatty so I could get troops back in place in time. Hopefully Monty will finish her off to save me the trouble later.

275BC Zara got Monarchy. Gave him CoL for it. 150BC CS in.

225BC Sitting Bull DOW'd me and targeted my initial iron city. I couldn't get back in time so let him take it (175BC) while I regrouped and took it back in 100BC.

Now got about 10 Praets gathered around his city 2W1S of marble. One unit (0.7/4 Dog Soldier ) left inside to be taken next turn. Think I will take peace after that and tech to Cuirs. Medieval wars are effort...

Oh and I only just took a religion. Buddhist with Monty and Zara. Spread to eight cities so far.

So far built 34 Praets, 3Axes, lost 21/1. Killed 29 Archers, 12 Swords, 11 Axes (2 Dogs), 15 Chariots (9 War) + 5 others.

Got 12 cities (one Egyptian city given to smallish Zara to lower maint and cause border tension with Monty). Got 11 workers (4 built), 10 Granaries, 6 (cheap) CH's, 5 libs, 4rax some other stuff, no wonders. 54 pop (cap size 10), 62 improvements. Really want calendar (Zara has it), but really don't want to tech it!!!

 

[las91]

Just registered to say I've really enjoyed the past couple of the NC maps, just finished my fastest standard win ever with this map (1530 AD on Prince, Diplo with AP) so I'll probably be looking to bump up the difficulty soon. Definitely easier to play maps than the Fractals/Random Civ/Leader that I've been forcing on myself....