Nearly all Europeans are in fact Russians...

[BirraImperial]

So if I'm a descendant from Spaniards...that means I'm Russian too!!!

 

[gay_Aleks]

You still don't get it. We're all Russians, let's make love, not war.

 

[sophie]

You still don't get it. We're all Russians, let's make love, not war.

Or better yet, both at the same time.

 

[gay_Aleks]

All is fair in love and war, in the end.

 

[classical_hero]

I thought CFC was Domen's plaything, as proven by his random intervention with graphs on gene and ethnic distribution in random threads.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I thought CFC was Domen's plaything, as proven by his random intervention with graphs on gene and ethnic distribution in random threads.

He still hasn't started any IOT/NES governed solely by these graphs, so hope still remains.

 

[sophie]

He still hasn't started any IOT/NES governed solely by these graphs, so hope still remains.

Oh god no.

 

[gay_Aleks]

What, you don't want Domen to be your GM? Once you join PoleNES, you'll be a Pole.

Forever.

 

[Domen]

On previous page I wrote:

"They discovered R1b also in an Early Neolithic individual from north-eastern Spain"

But the problem with that R1b from Spain is that it tests negative on P297 mutation, which means that this guy was NOT ancestor of great majority of modern European R1b (which is P297+). On the other hand, hunter-gatherer from Samara (6th millenium BC) tests positive on this mutation.

I quickly made a map of Neolithic Y-DNA in Europe discovered so far (if I ommited something, I will add later):

Those two Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHGs) had distinct Y-DNA - R1a and R1b - but in autosomal DNA were genetically very close to each other.

They lived ~1250 km from each other, but were genetically close - both could be characterized by the same DNA component, named "EHG". Both of them were hunter-gatherers and both lived during the 6th millenium BCE (possibly even during the same century!):

However, those other 7 R1b individuals from this study - those who lived near Samara 2,000 years later (3339 - 2622 BC) were autosomally distinct from those two hunters (R1a and R1b). They were autosomally roughly like 50% EHG (so 50% like those hunters), and 50% like modern Armenians. So it seems that Yamnaya Culture (which had kurgan burials) was a mixture of 50% descendants of EHGs and 50% "Armenian-like" people (immigrants?).

We also have Y-DNA from Andronovo culture (also steppe people and kurgan burials) - and they were 9 R1a out of 10 males (from a few different sites). So we have both R1a and R1b in the steppe. But both R1a and R1b could be brought by EHGs. Now question is - what Y-DNA did those "Armenians" bring in?

Scythians were also mostly R1a, and so were Tocharians (see below).

I've found a reconstruction (by M.M. Gerasimov) of that hunter-gatherer who lived 5500 - 5000 BCE in Karelia (and now we know that he was R1a):

================================

And here about Tocharians from Xiaohe (in the Tarim Basin).

According to a 2010 study, they were nearly all of R1a haplogroup. But according to 2014 data, not yet officially published, their R1a was not Z93 branch, but rather Z282 branch ("European") - which suggests that they came directly from Europe. Here a 2014 comment about this by a co-author of that 2010 study:

Link to the 2010 study: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

And this is from the comments section (by one of co-authors of the study):

Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.

In other words - Tocharians in the Tarim Basin had similar R1a to that of Karelian hunter-gatherer from the 6th millenium BC (and to modern Europeans).

 

[Godwynn]

Does anyone else get this weird 1940's scientific racism / ethno-linguistic nationalist vibe from Domen?

Instead of the Germans it's now Pan-Slavism. Let's leave this crap in the dustbin of history please. Ancient people and tribes migrated, conquered, and assimilated. I wouldn't be too surprised if all Europeans were related one way or another.

 

[Domen]

Where do you see Pan-Slavism?

It's not like Slavs have a monopoly for R1a.

Modern Norwegians are a roughly 30/30/30/10 percent mixture of R1b / I1 / R1a / others.

Oldest (Neolithic) I1 so far was discovered in Hungary in LBKT culture - see the map above.

In Mesolithic to Neolithic Scandinavia neither R1b, nor R1a nor I1 was found so far.

As for Slavs - North Slavs are heavy on R1a but South Slavs are heavier on I2.

Languages do not strictly correspond to genes (and why should they correspond more to paternal haplogroups than to maternal ??? - it perhaps depends on whether a society was more patriarchal or matriarchal).

But Neolithic Europe had a much different Y-DNA landscape than modern Europe.

Ancient people and tribes migrated, conquered, and assimilated. I wouldn't be too surprised if all Europeans were related one way or another.

True. But it's nice to have an insight on how that happened!

Between Russia and Germany there is still a "black hole" with almost no ancient Y-DNA from this region found so far. But this April we will probably see the results for Y-DNA of a Bronze Age warrior from what is now Eastern Poland (his well-preserved skeleton was found in Rogalin near Hrubieszow, close to the Ukrainian border).

In 2012 we had the very first ancient Y-DNA obtained from Oetzi the Iceman.

Now in 2015 ca. 100 samples of Ancient Y-DNA (and few times more of mtDNA, which is easier to extract) are known!

Rapid progress, almost as rapid as with discoveries of extra-solar planets.

 

[Kozmos]

But how does it matter?

 

[Domen]

This finding is actually more sensational - an important argument into the 100 years long dispute on East Germanic / West Slavic boundary:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539586

Y-DNA from Late Bronze Age Lusatian Culture (as part of Urnfield horizon), from Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld in Saxony-Anhalt.

This is the first - so far - ancient Y-DNA from the Lusatian Culture (Biskupin in Poland is the most famous site of this culture).

He was named in this study as individual Halberstadt_LBA, I0099:

I0099/HAL36C (grave 40, feature 1114, 1113-1021 calBCE, MAMS 21484)
was buried in right-handed flexed position, head SSW, facing SE. Two decorated LBK pots
and two undecorated globular pots were found above the grave but it was not clear whether
they were part of the burial or the back filling. Thus, the skeleton was also originally thought
to be part of the LBK burial series found at the same site, but subsequent radiocarbon dating
performed for this study indicated a much younger date, placing this individual within the
Late Bronze Age Urnfield [in this case Lusatian Culture, which was part of Urnfield horizon] of the Mittelelbe-Saale region.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

ID number - I0099
Pop Label for Analysis - Halberstadt_LBA
Culture - Late Bronze Age
Group - LBA
Location and sample details (e.g. sample, grave and museum ID) - Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany; HAL36C, grave 40, feature 1114
Date (lab no.) - 1113-1021 cal BCE (MAMS 21484)
Country - Germany
Sex - M
mt-hg - H23
Y-hg - R1a1a1b1a2

What is so revolutionary about this find? That individual had Y-DNA hg R1a1a1b1a2 (see below). And he lived around years 1113 - 1021 BCE.

But more importantly - he was part of the Lusatian Culture, about which for the last 100 years scholars argued whether it was Balto-Slavic or Germanic. And now we have a typically Balto-Slavic DNA from this culture - and not even from its central part, but from western periphery!:

This haplogroup (R1a1a1b1a2) is today almost exclusively a Slavic-Baltic marker. Here more about it:

https://translate.google.com/#auto/..., восточно-альпийский, чехословацкий и другие

R1a1a1b1a2 (S204 / Z91, S466 / Z280) - an Eastern European marker (probably Balto-Slavic), is found throughout Central and Eastern Europe, the western limit of distribution stretches from East to South-western Germany and further to the north-eastern Italy, is spread in Russian, Ukrainians, Volga Tatars and others. Inside branches divided into several clusters studied so far only in general terms: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, Eastern Alps, Czechoslovakia and others.

And also here:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

So what does this discovery mean ??? That ancestors of Slavs and Balts lived in East Germany around year 1000 BC. But did they speak Balto-Slavic language ??? Or East Germanic ??? Or yet another (now extinct?) Indo-European language, neither Balto-Slavic nor East Germanic?

His maternal haplogroup is no less interesting. It is H23 - here is what I found about it:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2566-mtDNA-H23

H23 (C10211T) is estimated to be about 3000 years old based on diversity of present day samples, however, there is an H23 sample from ancient remains from the early LBK farmer culture found at Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany dated to about 7000 years ago.
H23 has 30 samples including: 5 from Germany, 2 from Sweden, 2 from England, 2 from Ireland, 2 from Netherlands, 2 from Russia and 1 each from Poland, Scotland, and Czech. While H23 was present in Germany at least 7000 years ago, the most recent common ancestor of the people in the H Subclade Discovery project probably originated in an early Germanic [???] tribe in northern Europe around 3000 years ago.

While his R1a lineage is descended from pastoralist Corded Ware Culture, his mtDNA lineage (this H23) is descended from Linear Pottery Culture, who were Neolithic farmers. So when pastoralists came from the steppe, they took wifes from among local women of Neolithic farmers!

===============================

This find of Y-DNA which is today mostly Slavic-Baltic, in Bronze Age Lusatian Culture, is sensational either way - because:

1) If that Bronze Age R1a1a1b1a2 spoke Balto-Slavic language, then we have Slavic migration into Poland & East Germany debunked (Proto-Slavs were there already during the Bronze Age, in such case).

2) If that Bronze Age R1a1a1b1a2 spoke East Germanic, then we have depopulation of Poland & East Germany debunked (Slavs did not come to empty land, but assimilated East Germanic & Celtic tribes).

So - no matter which interpretation we accept, this is sensational (because until recently a scientific consensus was that Poland and East Germany became completely depopulated during the Migration Period, and then that empty land was populated again by immigrants).

 

[Terxpahseyton]

But how does it matter?

Careful now!
At this point nobody knows what might happen once Domen realizes the answer to that question.

Does anyone else get this weird 1940's scientific racism / ethno-linguistic nationalist vibe from Domen?

Naw, all I get is a mildly more interesting and wildly more bustling tom-petty-vibe

 

[JohannaK]

He will most likely track everyone here by their probable gene distribution and kill us in his petty revenge against the world.

 

[Domen]

The title of the thread is not fully serious (in case if you didn't realize).

But I already explained this (I mean Russia as a geographic area).

'Megavillages'?!? Those are cities. Never heard of this before, going to investigate.

OK, but cities inhabited mostly by farmers.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Steven Seagal is Russian... and Mongolian.

In the past, I thought he's a Native American and that his surname is Seagull...

 

[Domen]

and that his surname is Seagull...

Of course it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5_mlQOsUQ#t=17

In the past, I thought he's a Native American

It is now very probable that there took place a back-migration to Eurasia from North America, by some groups of Native Americans, actually.

I stumbled upon this info yesterday - it is also related to this new study on ancient DNA (some Native-American admixture was found in Eurasians).

====================

Those were Chipewyan-like genes. A small admixture, but still. Possibly some groups of ancient Chipewyans crossed the Bering Strait on boats into Asia, and then their genes spread gradually by intermarriages from village to village (it is rather improbable that they came deep into Eurasia, but they could intermarry with some North-East Asians, then those North-East Asians with people to the west of them, and so on - up to Central Asia and Europe).

When you for example have a population that is on average 2% Chipewyan, you might still find a Chipewyan-looking guy among them (just like you can win a lottery - some "cumulation" of Chipewyan traits might randomly pop up in some individuals from a group which is only a bit Chipewyan).

 

[Domen]

An updated version of my previous map - distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup types in Neolithic-Mesolithic Europe:

We still have "black holes" - Britain, Italy, much of Eastern Europe (still no Stone Age Y-DNA from these areas).

 

[Phrossack]

Does anyone else get this weird 1940's scientific racism / ethno-linguistic nationalist vibe from Domen?

Instead of the Germans it's now Pan-Slavism. Let's leave this crap in the dustbin of history please. Ancient people and tribes migrated, conquered, and assimilated. I wouldn't be too surprised if all Europeans were related one way or another.

I can't tell what flavor of scientific racism or ethnic nationalism it is. 1890's? Too modern for that. 1940's? Possibly.

I can imagine Domen carrying around a bag full of pamphlets with archaic maps of Poland to distribute, ear plugs for ignoring what others say, calipers for measuring skulls of passers-by, a portable DNA testing kit for determining other's genes, and a map and markers so he can determine where one should live or which territory should belong to which country based on the results of his tests.