[BTS] Need Help on Monarch

[crashmon]

Hi All

Have been lurking for a while, and follow Lain's / AZ / Henrik's walkthroughs (also have played a couple of NC games but on Prince), but I'm still struggling to beat Monarch... I have won some games, but my win rate is about 30%, and I'm sure the problem is easily fixable with some tweaks to my game... I usually find I can rush the nearest civ in early game, but then tend to lose my way and end up with too much catching up to do by the time mid game comes....

So I've decided to take the plunge and start a shadow game as Egypt (Ramesses)....

Settings are here, pretty standard game

Spoiler Settings :

Spoiler Starting position :

I'm thinking of Settling 1S as this would give me more river tiles, but should I SIP? Moving the warrior on to the Gold Hill should help me see what tiles I have to the east to make the first call.

First build should be a worker, but should I go AH first tech (as I am egypt, so horses would be key)

 

[crashmon]

File Here

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moving the warrior on to the Gold Hill

Do that before you think about anything else

 

[jnebbe]

I'd settle 1W on the plain hill; gives you an extra hammer, keeps both food in BFC, you're only losing hill tiles by the river, and you can easily share that pig with a 2nd/3rd city to grab that gold.
I'd probably move warrior 1NW first though.

 

[krikav]

I second what @jnebbe says. Settling south doesn't make much sense, rather not lose a turn in that case.
Only alternative to SiP would be on that PH, so moving warrior NW would possibly reveal something that could make that option better.

That said, I do think I would SiP here. I'm no huge fan of gold, but with Ramesses here it could open up some nice possibilities for a oracle gambit of some sort (Oracle CoL is nice for caste since SPI)
Not that an oracle play should be the main plan, but losing a turn and losing BFC gold makes it much more unlikely.

 

[crashmon]

So I have moved the warrior 1 NW and have found another PH apart from that nothing much

Spoiler Warrior Move :

So looks like SIP might be the call here... Lots of production possibilites as well here

 

[Fippy]

Not a game changing mistake, but moving your warrior NW was pointless cos you saw there are only forests
While moving on gold would have revealed something.

Settling thoughts could go like this..with SIP you get a strong Bur. Capital later.
1w on the hill would give that plan up instantly, and you play for fast expansion.
I think it's important to point out why things get suggested, in shadow games.

 

[coanda]

I'm thinking of Settling 1S as this would give me more river tiles, but should I SIP

If you look carefully at tiles just inside the fog of war, you can get some information about what sort of tile it is. It won't tell you if there are resources on those tiles, but it's still useful - particularly on turn 0 of the game, as the first few turns are so very important. This is called "fog-gazing," and is a useful habit to get into on turn-0 when considering where to scout or settle. So for example just by fog-gazing I can tell you that settling in place is going to give you riverside grass tiles at 1N2E of the settler, 1S, 2S, and 1S2E: 4 riverside grass tiles. Moving the settler 1S gives up the grass river 1S (you're putting the city tile there) and the grass river tile 1N2E (moving out of the radius); the only clearly riverside tile you pick up (2S2E) is a plains-river tile (you can see the color at the edge of the fog of war). You don't actually get more useful river tiles; you get fewer useful river tiles (plains tiles without resources, other than sometimes plains-hills, are generally worthless junk tiles until fairly late in the game even if they are riverside). As a side note, I can also tell by fog-gazing that moving the warrior NW isn't going to reveal anything useful because there's three forest tiles bordering that hill; that's all he'll see. Similarly with moving him NE. SE onto gold or SW onto pigs are the only warrior moves that might reveal anything here; I'd go with SE onto gold.

Moving on to the second point: think small when settling early cities. You're concerned mostly about how good they are at, say, size-5 - stuff they can do at size-10, 15, 20 is so far in the future that it's not the big concern. The concern is something that will help you quickly get out your next couple cities, get key early techs, get your early workers going, all the stuff that's going to happen soon and long before the city has grown to a huge size. The power tiles for this capital, looking at the opening screenshot, are in order: pigs, plainscow, gold. Then you've got four riverside grass tiles, and a plainshill, all of which are decent tiles to work. And after that you might want a couple scientist specialists. That gets you up to size-10, way past the early game. There's no need to get more decent tiles; the only reason you'd move would be for an immediate, tangible upgrade. Even if moving south gave you five more riverside grass tiles (instead of losing you two, like it actually does) you wouldn't care much - sure, something you might do if there was literally no cost, but not at the cost of spending a turn moving the settler.

On a similar point regarding thinking small and fast returns, if you settle on a tile that gives 2 hammers then your city tile produces 2 hammers. This is very often a power move - it means that the city at size-1 can generally be producing 5 surplus food+hammers per turn instead of 4, which means getting a worker in 12 turns instead of 15. So spending one turn to move onto a plainshill, in exchange for saving three turns building your first worker, is very often the correct move. In this case it's less clear because you'd lose that gold tile, which is a pretty nice one for your early commerce. If you saw a valuable second city around the gold sharing the pigs with the capital it's something you might consider; moving the warrior SE onto the gold would reveal enough surrounding terrain to probably judge if there was enough useful stuff in that region.

Long story short, with no more information I'd settle in place. Depending on what a warrior scout onto gold revealed, I'd be weighing either settle in place, settle 1W and put my second city somewhere like 1S of gold (share pigs with capital, grab the gold, if there's tiles worth working around there) or maybe consider moving the settler 1SE onto the grass forest if the warrior found something unusual.

Worker-first is almost always the right move on non-coastal starts, and it's going to be the right one here. The first priority in tech is usually whatever will improve your biggest food-surplus "power tile," which is the pigs, so Animal Husbandry first here makes sense (there are times, for a pasture or work boat resource, when you maybe don't go that route... but Egypt starts with Agriculture, so Animal Husbandry is straightforward to get here and the right move).

 

[Noble Zarkon]

So I have moved the warrior 1 NW and have found another PH apart from that nothing much

Oops, you said move him on to the Gold hill which would have been a good move but you did something different and as @Fippy said pointless. The main reason to settle 1S would be if there is a 2nd gold there, with enough food to work them that's a really strong start IMO (I note @krikav disagrees!!).

 

[coanda]

To be fair, his initial instinct (scout SE) was correct. Several people recommended he scout NW instead (which would make sense if not for those forests visible in fog of war, a detail easy to miss looking at a little screenshot on a forum post). So it was a mistake, yes, but not his mistake.

 

[crashmon]

Thanks for advice... So looks like SIP is the call..... Will do that when I play next (will be tomorrow morning EU time as I am away from computer).

So looking ahead..... after worker Pigs is the first target (and teching AH).... However I saw this from coanda "The power tiles for this capital, looking at the opening screenshot, are in order: pigs, plainscow, gold."

So after AH, would the call be BW or Masonry? Lots of forest to chop out makes me think BW also my its on the path my UU, also will need to clear some forests for cottages?

Will post again tomorrow morning after I settle in place and start the worker

[Edit] sorry got confused with Quarry, I don't need Masonry for Gold, so after AH, I think I'll aim towards BW, then Pottery.

 

[krikav]

Not a game changing mistake, but moving your warrior NW was pointless cos you saw there are only forests
While moving on gold would have revealed something.

Settling thoughts could go like this..with SIP you get a strong Bur. Capital later.
1w on the hill would give that plan up instantly, and you play for fast expansion.
I think it's important to point out why things get suggested, in shadow games.

My fault, I didn't see the forests.
And yes, you are correct. We should be better to provide motivations for the suggestions we lay forward.

 

[lymond]

Great posts by coanda!

BW most def

Spoiler Although :

On this level and with this power start, one might make the argument of going Mining>Alpha next. Depends on more map knowledge and AIs met. I’m not very familiar with the map type. There is time to make that decision after Mining and more scouting. Other questions would be easy access to horses and/or easy spawn busting. Or if a juicy target in decent proximity may make BW high for chopppin’ WCs

 

[crashmon]

Hi All

So have moved the warrior to the Gold Hill and its not what I really wanted to see just a lot of rubbish plains tiles (we on coast and have a fish tile as well)... I also see that the coast goes sw by looking at the fog so thinking of moving warrior north east next to see what is in that direction. Or Should I move him to the NW instead.

Spoiler Updated Map :

No need to rush decision on whether to head to BW or to Mining next, will need to do a little more of map before making that call.

I’m not very familiar with the map type

Its similar to a continents map, only difference is that with continents you only have 2 landmasses 90% of the time, this map can spawn up to 6 (but not an islands map, the continents are still large). As this was a shadow game, did not want to do Pangea as I find Pangea easier, and I struggle with continents type maps, so hopefully will gain tips as well).

https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/map-scripts-guide/#mirror

However I have no idea how many we will get it will be between 2-6, so could easily just be 2.

 

[Fippy]

Hi All

So have moved the warrior to the Gold Hill and its not what I really wanted to see just a lot of rubbish plains tiles (we on coast and have a fish tile as well)...

Wrong thinking, finding fish + floodplains is great. Lose ideas like every city must grow big, what you need are a couple strong tiles

 

[lymond]

Yep, that could be a nice spot actually. No, the move did not affect your settling decision much but info is info. With fish and fp you gotta nice spot there that can work that gold when Thebes can't. Settle on desert unless there's more seafood down there. Plains tiles may have a strat resource

 

[coanda]

There's definitely a city site down there past the gold.

The standard advice is "put your food special in the inner ring so you don't need a border pop to start working it." That way the city starts contributing earlier and needs less set-up time. In 95%+ of cases, that's the right call. Here, that would mean settling NW of the fish / SE of the gold. If you find something good 1S or 2S of the pigs, this could be one of the rare exceptions to that inner-ring rule. Because 1S of the gold would share pigs with the capital, it could "steal" the pigs long enough to grow a little so it's not as useless without a border pop; that'd let you catch the fish you see and the mystery tiles further west if they're worth catching. Either way, it's a nice helper city for the capital. It can work that gold when the capital needs a bit more food surplus, can work a couple riverside grass cottages to grow them up a bit; eventually as you get more happiness and can start growing the capital more it can take them back and really leverage the boosted tiles with Bureaucracy and an academy. While this city itself is still a respectable contributor; working floodplains, fish, some scientist specialists after building a library.

On the flip side... while you're definitely going to want a city down there at some point, seafood tiles can be a little slower get improved (especially for your first coastal city, where you can't pre-build a workboat). And it looks like it's probably out on a little peninsula, in which case it's a very safe city spot that you don't need to out-race an AI to secure. So it's a spot I'd be keeping in the back of my mind as I went on scouting elsewhere, hoping that it would end up maybe a third or fourth (or even fifth) city depending on what other spots I found elsewhere that I wanted to take first. If all the land I found elsewhere was junk I might end up settling it second, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

Edit: Also, one last thought. You're researching Animal Husbandry now, and the game generally tries to give players either copper, horses, or iron somewhere close to their starting location. With all the forest we're seeing elsewhere nearby (which won't have a strategic resource, the game won't generate that way), there's a chance of horses on one of those plains tiles.

 

[Fish Man]

There's definitely a city site down there past the gold.

The standard advice is "put your food special in the inner ring so you don't need a border pop to start working it." That way the city starts contributing earlier and needs less set-up time. In 95%+ of cases, that's the right call. Here, that would mean settling NW of the fish / SE of the gold. If you find something good 1S or 2S of the pigs, this could be one of the rare exceptions to that inner-ring rule. Because 1S of the gold would share pigs with the capital, it could "steal" the pigs long enough to grow a little so it's not as useless without a border pop; that'd let you catch the fish you see and the mystery tiles further west if they're worth catching. Either way, it's a nice helper city for the capital. It can work that gold when the capital needs a bit more food surplus, can work a couple riverside grass cottages to grow them up a bit; eventually as you get more happiness and can start growing the capital more it can take them back and really leverage the boosted tiles with Bureaucracy and an academy. While this city itself is still a respectable contributor; working floodplains, fish, some scientist specialists after building a library.

On the flip side... while you're definitely going to want a city down there at some point, seafood tiles can be a little slower get improved (especially for your first coastal city, where you can't pre-build a workboat). And it looks like it's probably out on a little peninsula, in which case it's a very safe city spot that you don't need to out-race an AI to secure. So it's a spot I'd be keeping in the back of my mind as I went on scouting elsewhere, hoping that it would end up maybe a third or fourth (or even fifth) city depending on what other spots I found elsewhere that I wanted to take first. If all the land I found elsewhere was junk I might end up settling it second, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

Edit: Also, one last thought. You're researching Animal Husbandry now, and the game generally tries to give players either copper, horses, or iron somewhere close to their starting location. With all the forest we're seeing elsewhere nearby (which won't have a strategic resource, the game won't generate that way), there's a chance of horses on one of those plains tiles.

Could be copper/iron on that incredibly sus unforested hill.

Also, I noticed on opening the save OP has over 1600 land tiles on this standard-sized map (you can mouse over your score for that info). Seems like this is a pretty bonkers map script; most have half that number or even less. Not impossible - if anything, this makes your game even easier on monarch, but just something wacky to note.

 

[krikav]

What a incredible stroke of luck, that there was a food source down south there, so that some other city can hold the gold!

 

[crashmon]

H'm I'm a little concerned about the map script now, its one of the standard ones which comes with the game (not one I have downloaded)... I have used this map script before did not notice anything special (but that was on small not standard size)

Anyway in terms of the spot to the south.

1) If we get Horses there I would probably settle 2nd City there
2) If no Horses considing I have the spot locked up, I might wait for it to be a back fill city (3rd or 4th), as being Egypt, horses will be important.

Is my thinking correct here, or should mark this as 2nd city regardless anyway. I will need a costal city as I know there will be at least another continent on the map for later in the game.

If we do make it 2nd city, then I guess Fishing will become more important to tech... I still think after AH we go Mining, but then we now have 3 choices

• BW for chops / hopefully reveal Copper on Map / Slavery option as well
• Fishing for food for 2nd city (but we do have a FP which I can irrigate in early game for food, so fish maybe not as important to dirvert from BW)
• Writing to push to Alpha (but this depends on meeting other civ's and seeing that we have a lot of land tiles)

My thoughts are still to go for BW first, but it does give us choices

In terms of warrior moves I am planning to go north, but should I explore coast to the west first.