Need some advice on military and production

[B1sh0p]

Just lost another game. This one I just gave up on, cause I didn't think there was any way I could win. I was number 3 in score, out of 9, which is much better than I usually am doing, but I don't think there was a snowball's chance in hell I was going to win.

This seems to be a recurring problem in my games. When I get to the mid game, I find I just don't have as much production capacity as the other civs. I want to keep a modern, competitive military, but it seems like they can just simply pump the units out faster than me. To remain competitive in power, I would have to shut down all cities and just produce military units. In most cases, I'm not looking for a fight, not planning to go to war. So to shut down 8-9 cities just to produce military units, when you don't even want to go to war, seems like quite a waste. Especially when half of those cities aren't very high producers.

So I have 2 questions:

1) I don't exactly know why it is that I have such poor production. So can you give me some tips on being a more productive civ, while remaining technologically competitive?

2) As far as military goes, how modern should I keep it? In most games, when a new tech comes along like Gunpowder, I like to have at least 1 of the new units available in every city (in this instance, a musketman). Is this a mistake? Should I get away from trying to build up a good defense in every city, and focus more on making offensive units? (in this case, go for cavalry). I have a hard time deciding exactly how much defense I should build. And it's simply not ecconomically feasable to upgrade all of the units, so how long should I keep the old units around, which ones should I upgrade, and how many should I disband?

Military really seems to be one of my shortcomings. I understand the relation of the units, i.e. archers are good for city defence, pikemen are good vs mounted units, axemen are good vs melee, etc. It's just the ability to create enough of a military to stay competitive that I lack.

 

[Zebra 9]

You should keep your military totaly upto date. I usualy slowly replace my weakest units with more upto date stuff then disband the old unit, I also only upgrade high promotion units. Usualy I try to keep my military at about average strength, that's when I'm not going world domination.

Now I'm not exactly sure how to be more productive, but I find that building cities in more statigic locations & not being afraid to go to war for a resource (I mean a resource like iron not bananas, obvious right).

I'll let you know I'm not a civ pro, I myself have never finished a game & I've had Civ IV 5 months.

 

[Cam_H]

If you post a game, I'm sure your predicament will be clearer to others on the Forum.

(1.) 'City specialisation' might be this issue here. A portion of your cities should focus on commerce, a portion on production.

(2.) 'The best defence is a good offence'

 

[drkodos]

FYI: Power as displayed on the power graph is not just the number or type of military units. Technologies researched and even some buldings such as walls and castles contribute "points" to a civ's power.

Because of this, it is sometimes possible to "fool" another civ into thinking you are more powerful than you really might be. Just like a cat does by puffing up and looking bigger by only presenting the view that makes them look most dangerous.

Make sure to reasearch miltary techs. Keep tabs on what research other civs are conducting. Do not build buildings that do not fit directly into your long term goals (i.e. No library needed if the city is a low commerce/high hammer, production city).

Promote units strategically to counter opponent units (i.e. Axemen with SHOCK promotion can take down Praetorians).

Follow one of the play-along games found in the strategy forums. Play a shadow game and/or mimick what is happening so you can see for yourself what effect things have over a period of several turns.

But most importantly?



Have fun. It is just a game, afterall.

 

[cleverhandle]

I agree that posting a game would be helpful. There are lots of reasons your production could be lagging - poor terrain improvements, low population, lack of specialization, etc. It would also be good to know what level you're playing at.

I usually find production to be one of the easiest metrics to beat the AI in (at Emperor, at least). The AI has a tendency either to farm or cottage everything in sight, and rarely has any serious mining towns. As a rough measure, in the early stages of the game (through the Middle Ages), I consider 10 base hammers per turn to be "decent production" - worth the trouble of building a forge, at least (though not necessarily right away). If I have, say, 8 cities, then probably 5-6 have at least that much production, with 1-3 having closer to 15. By the time factories roll in, my better producing cities have 20+ base hammers, and I'll (eventually) build factories for anything that has at least 15 (which is most of them).

As far as military goes, it's also quite important to build the Heroic Epic in an appropriate location, which means you need a Level 4 unit. In more peaceful games (like island starts), it's worth the trouble to bait barbs, stage small wars, and do whatever you need to do to get that unit for the Epic.

 

[svv]

I think anybody can build Heroic Epic (units built 100 percent faster there). It takes the level 4 unit to build West Point (units built there get extra experience). It's often a good idea to build those two in the same city, or build one of them with Ironworks.

If you've got a ton of money laying around and you're in Universal Sufferage, one fun thing to do is pay gold to speed production in the West Point city every turn. You'll get a whole bunch of highly effective units very quickly. To have this kind of money laying around, you'd really need to have effectively used religions and shrines earlier in the game.

 

[drkodos]

I think anybody can build Heroic Epic (units built 100 percent faster there). It takes the level 4 unit to build West Point (units built there get extra experience). It's often a good idea to build those two in the same city, or build one of them with Ironworks.

Heroic Epic definitely require a level 4 unit.

Ironworks is a strange and costly Wonder. It can take a long time to recoup the hammers it takes to build it. The only time I push to build it is when I am going for Space Ship victory in peaceful Conditions. At 700 hammers, if it is put in a city with great production, lets say 30 natural hammers (which is HUGE!), it gives an extra 7 hammers per turn (+7 more with coal hooked up later). At that rate, it would be 100 turns before it yielded an extra hammer based on investment if it is built out the hard way. In the meantime, those 700 hammers would buy you 7 Grenadiers, which could be the immediate difference to beat down another civ. That is why I often wait until later game to pick a very good grassland spot with river to put Ironworks specifically for building Apollo mission and other SS components.


To the OP: Are you getting Metal Casting soon enough and building forges? Expensive, but absolutely essential mid game. Also, consider getting a religion and running Organized Religion civic to increase hammer yield in those cities with your ate sponsored religion. Chop and whip like mad in OR Civ in those cities that have both a forge and a granary. That will give you a huge boost to hammer production.

 

[B1sh0p]

I think my biggest problem is I didn't have any cities that were that great for production... Last game, I had no happiness resources, and that's a big reason I failed (too much unhappy citizens, couldn't grow my cities). This game I tried to remedy that by grabbing happiness resources as a priority... in the mean time, the city locations weren't that great.

Seems like whenever I learn something new, I forget something old.

 

[Illithid]

In the game where you were having issues with happiness, building a stronger military might have been the perfect ticket for success. Hereditary rule could have been used to solve both happiness and military issues.

I have always been builder heavy when I play. As I moved up in difficulty the biggest thing I have learned is the idea of specialization. There is the obvious specialization implied by the national wonders to try and focus cities. But more importantly, the reason for specialization is to allow you to choose not to build unnecessary buildings in a city.

One suggest is to set aside one city in the early game to build a barracks then just have it focus on building military units all game long. Once you get sufficiently large enough you might want to assign more cities to doing this but for the most part you really shouldn't stop producing units. Even if you want to play a peaceful game the best way to maintain peace is through threat of your military.

 

[Ace4nyC]

In the game where you were having issues with happiness, building a stronger military might have been the perfect ticket for success. Hereditary rule could have been used to solve both happiness and military issues.

I have always been builder heavy when I play. As I moved up in difficulty the biggest thing I have learned is the idea of specialization. There is the obvious specialization implied by the national wonders to try and focus cities. But more importantly, the reason for specialization is to allow you to choose not to build unnecessary buildings in a city.

One suggest is to set aside one city in the early game to build a barracks then just have it focus on building military units all game long. Once you get sufficiently large enough you might want to assign more cities to doing this but for the most part you really shouldn't stop producing units. Even if you want to play a peaceful game the best way to maintain peace is through threat of your military.

I totaly agree with you on this one, and i'd like to add one thing. Specilize cities derictly on border for culture + edu. Your cultural bonus will keep those cities alive and well for very long sieges. Believe me i know

 

[bovinespy]

I totaly agree with you on this one, and i'd like to add one thing. Specilize cities derictly on border for culture + edu. Your cultural bonus will keep those cities alive and well for very long sieges. Believe me i know

Plus, if you pump up the culture in your border cities, it will take longer for the enemy to reach your cities from the border. And, if the unthinkable happens and you do lose a city, if your culture has been high enough, your borders will engulf the city. This will help to isolate the units in the city and make it easier for you to retake it.

 

[Ace4nyC]

yup thats the idea.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Very good advice here.

As others suggested I usually (in the early game) set up a designated production city producing military units. I usually locate it around enough foodtiles to feed about 10-12 citizens - the rest will be hills/woods, copper/iron in the dotmap would be nice. This city will also get 2-3 military powerhouse buildings besides barracks - national/world wonders. Forget Ironworks - I usually place it in a different production city, since I don't need the extra output. But a forge and later factory/coal/waterplant is a must.

Also, keep your military campaigns short (meaning not too many turns) and focused - think Blitzkrieg. Strike with overwhelming power at a few enemy keycities, make peace and adjust your forces to the next strike - perhaps 20 turns into the future or something, depending on overall strategic goals.

 

[B1sh0p]

In the game where you were having issues with happiness, building a stronger military might have been the perfect ticket for success. Hereditary rule could have been used to solve both happiness and military issues.

Actually, that's what I did. And it was both a blessing, and a curse. Since I had so few happiness resources, I was forced to stay in hereditary rule for the whole game. The allies I had chosen didn't have any happiness resources to trade, and I didn't want to trade with those who were against my allies. If I changed civics to a more productive/economical one, away from hereditary rule, I would stand to lose half of my population to unhappiness.

Oh well, gonna try again tonight. So let's see, I went overboard with military the first game to keep the happiness up there, then the second game I went overboard grabbing happiness resources and my military suffered... Gonna try to strike a fine balance tonight.

Thanks for the input guys, I'll let ya know how this one works out.

 

[drkodos]

I think Representation is a better Civ than HR for addressing happiness issues because it does make your units impotent, happiness is really only an issue in the larger cities anyway, and any specialist with generate extra beakers for research. They only reason I would ever use HR when Rep is avaliable is to sidle up to a Civ that has it as a favorite civic and use it to manipulate their actions.


One more thought to share: Completely ignoring unhappy citizens has its merits. When I really want to go for the jugular, regardless of level being played, I do not stop warmongering because of unhappy faces. Sometimes even if they force a large city into starvation, I will not call off the dogs. I have found this most useful and effective to win the wars much faster as far as total turns and much quicker in the game. Since they are not really people, I do not allow any psychological impediments get in the way of a precision demolition of another civ. Pivotal is to completely annihilate the opponent. Do not settle or sue for peace. Press the initiative. When they come seeking mercy, the boot must be driven in with greater firmness. This way, after victory is acheived, one is not plagued with the unhappy faces pining for the Homelands. Once the war is over the starved cities grow back very fast.

 

[cabert]

If you post a game, I'm sure your predicament will be clearer to others on the Forum.

(1.) 'City specialisation' might be this issue here. A portion of your cities should focus on commerce, a portion on production.

(2.) 'The best defence is a good offence'

I totally agree, as usual , with cam_h.

You need a level 4 unit to build Heroic Epic (HE). This can be done by killing a few barbs.
With some hills, some food and HE, you can pump a unit per turn for most of the game.
Let me rephrase this.
You SHOULD pump 1 unit per turn for most of the game.
If the HE isn't that grand, make it one unit every other turn. Should do the trick.

 

[cabert]

Ironworks is a strange and costly Wonder. It can take a long time to recoup the hammers it takes to build it.
The only time I push to build it is when I am going for Space Ship victory in peaceful Conditions. At 700 hammers, if it is put in a city with great production, lets say 30 natural hammers (which is HUGE!), it gives an extra 7 hammers per turn (+7 more with coal hooked up later). At that rate, it would be 100 turns before it yielded an extra hammer based on investment if it is built out the hard way. In the meantime, those 700 hammers would buy you 7 Grenadiers, which could be the immediate difference to beat down another civ. That is why I often wait until later game to pick a very good grassland spot with river to put Ironworks specifically for building Apollo mission and other SS components.

you're a bit off here.
Iron Works give +50% production with iron, and +50% with coal.
So at 30 base hammers, you gain 15 hammers every turn with just iron, then 30 hammers with coal.
And 30 base hammers isn't huge. It's just a soso production city.
Try a riverside Ironworks under state property
Here an example :

this city has 65 base hammers (including 3 from a settled GE), so IW pays off in 11 turns. And specialization wasn't even fulfilled (one town should be turned into a workshop soon, I know it's a pity but when you build the last spaceship parts, you don't care about commerce).
Note that this isn't even under a golden age (I couldn't get one in the last run towards space )