Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Game

[Roman Citizen]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 3-3=0 ELIMINATED, as much as a Czech civ would be cool, I would rather prioritizes the other options on the remaining list.
Burmese 14
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 14+1=15 Of the two Caucasus options we have, while I do think Armenia has a more interesting history to it, but I think Georgia has the more interesting leader selection. Georgia works better for Civ Vi.
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 4
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Kimiimaro]

The heart of Europe suffered a heart attack... But that doesn't matter. I'm actually happy! It proved twice to be the best Civ from the round three! Also, being the last purely (used this word to exclude Georgia lying between Europe and Asia) European Civ eliminated from the winners bracket, it proved to be the best purely European Civ in this Elimination thread!

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18+1=19 - African Civs are needed, and @Returning Lurker gave enough arguments to convince me to vote for them.
Burmese 14
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 4-3=1 - I'd rather have Carthage to represent them again.
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10


R.I.P. Bohemia. You fought well.

 

[Zaarin]

(used this word to exclude Georgia lying between Europe and Asia)

Personally the Caucasus is more Asia than Europe, a transitional zone between the Near East and Central Asia more than Asia and Europe.

 

[luigilime]

Personally the Caucasus is more Asia than Europe, a transitional zone between the Near East and Central Asia more than Asia and Europe.

Yes but aren't Armenia and Georgia usually considered European in culture? But anyway the fact that there has to be a discussion of a continents border already makes the border useless. I mean Europe it's just a Greek concept that came to be because they thought Europe and Asia were separated at the Black sea. Let's just agree that Eurasia is the continent and Europe is "the peninsula of peninsulas".

 

[Kimiimaro]

Yes but aren't Armenia and Georgia usually considered European in culture? But anyway the fact that there has to be a discussion of a continents border already makes the border useless. I mean Europe it's just a Greek concept that came to be because they thought Europe and Asia were separated at the Black sea. Let's just agree that Eurasia is the continent and Europe is "the peninsula of peninsulas".

I talked about location. Bohemia/Czech Republic lies in Europe, Georgia between Europe and Asia and Armenia in Asia. That's why I said "purely" European.

 

[Morningcalm]

Here; I forgot it was usually spelled "Shakes" in English, and I misspelled the Tlingit--should be Sheiyksh. Also, I think the Haida/Tlingit have a very obvious unique unit: Haida war canoe.

That's a title rather than an actual leader, no? My objections about the lack of a more well-documented leader for the Haida/Tlingit remain.

 

[Guandao]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 14
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA (14+1)=15 They can represent a part of Canada instead of Canada being in the game. Their artwork and culture are unique for Amerindians.
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 1-3=0 Eliminated! Leaders aren't interesting enough
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Phrozen]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 14
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15
Hebrews 22 -3 =19. Small regional power at best. Often conquered by the other powers of the time.
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Swahili/Kilwa 20 + 1 =21. Deep ocean going African traders.
Tibetans 12

 

[Zaarin]

Yes but aren't Armenia and Georgia usually considered European in culture? But anyway the fact that there has to be a discussion of a continents border already makes the border useless. I mean Europe it's just a Greek concept that came to be because they thought Europe and Asia were separated at the Black sea. Let's just agree that Eurasia is the continent and Europe is "the peninsula of peninsulas".

Why, because they're Christian and not Muslim? Georgia is perhaps somewhat more European (though I'd still argue that European influence there is very modern), but Armenia and Azerbaijan have always been in Iran's cultural sphere since their earliest history.

That's a title rather than an actual leader, no? My objections about the lack of a more well-documented leader for the Haida/Tlingit remain.

That's a Eurocentric mindset; for the Tlingit there is no distinction between a name and a title. Indeed, as far as the Tlingit are concerned, all individuals with the same name/title are the same person. Names are considered intangible property, belonging to the matrilineal clan collectively, that is granted in trust to the user at birth, and when a child receives the honored name of an ancestor they inherit that ancestor's soul and personality as well. Certain deeds (particularly hosting potlatches, but also deeds as a warrior or the call to become a shaman) can elevate one's status and lead to the inheritance of new names, and yes, the soul of the previous owner of the name comes with the name.

 

[luigilime]

Armenians 16+1=17 interesting and unique culture
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 14-3=11 I prefer Siam and Khmer
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15
Hebrews 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Swahili/Kilwa 21
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Kimiimaro]

Vietnamese got clipped off.

 

[luigilime]

Why, because they're Christian and not Muslim? Georgia is perhaps somewhat more European (though I'd still argue that European influence there is very modern), but Armenia and Azerbaijan have always been in Iran's cultural sphere since their earliest history.


That's a Eurocentric mindset; for the Tlingit there is no distinction between a name and a title. Indeed, as far as the Tlingit are concerned, all individuals with the same name/title are the same person. Names are considered intangible property, belonging to the matrilineal clan collectively, that is granted in trust to the user at birth, and when a child receives the honored name of an ancestor they inherit that ancestor's soul and personality as well. Certain deeds (particularly hosting potlatches, but also deeds as a warrior or the call to become a shaman) can elevate one's status and lead to the inheritance of new names, and yes, the soul of the previous owner of the name comes with the name.

They always taught me that Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan are similar to other southeastern European countries with ties to the middle East and Iran. And are considered in Europe and they are part of the council of Europe, you the thing that you never hear anywhere?

 

[luigilime]

Vietnamese got clipped off.

Fixed

 

[Morningcalm]

That's a Eurocentric mindset; for the Tlingit there is no distinction between a name and a title. Indeed, as far as the Tlingit are concerned, all individuals with the same name/title are the same person. Names are considered intangible property, belonging to the matrilineal clan collectively, that is granted in trust to the user at birth, and when a child receives the honored name of an ancestor they inherit that ancestor's soul and personality as well. Certain deeds (particularly hosting potlatches, but also deeds as a warrior or the call to become a shaman) can elevate one's status and lead to the inheritance of new names, and yes, the soul of the previous owner of the name comes with the name.

Good for the Tlingit, but you can't develop an agenda and leader ability based on some largely fictitious concoction, which is what we would have to do to get one of their leaders in Civ VI as it stands. Some civilizations are simply not going to work for the game as it currently is configured. There are many ways to incorporate the unique cultural flavors of Haida/Tlingit without making them a full civ and some leader with barely any Civilopedia text. For good or ill, the Haida/Tlingit slot simply doesn't work for Civ in the same way the Olmec don't--no leader with history that we can use as their representative. I can understand fudging a unique unit a bit (see Babylon's archer units from Civ IV and V, which are based on wall paintings), but concocting a leader out of a title simply won't work for Civ.

As for your argument that this is a "Eurocentric mindset"; it's not a uniquely European mindset to perceive of civilizations having distinct leaders. Many people outside of Europe think civilizations ought be perceived as led by recognizable leaders with tangible footprints on history, not this airy-fairy "well, we can have America led by "President", whose agenda will be to develop and use nuclear weapons" nonsense. We can't have Tlingit led by a title any more than we can have Greece led by "Orator" or France led by "King". If we really wanted to rid ourselves of Eurocentric mindsets, we need not not bind ourselves to any of them--we need not play Civilization, which as a game series is imbued in some respects with very European assumptions about how history works and what entails a civilization. Maybe in other games you can get civs led by titles, like Shoshone and Iroquois led by nameless "Chief"s or "England" led by "King", but Civilization draws as one of its central tenets the idea of a civilization led by a recognizable leader (even if that leader is obscure like Amanitore and/or with semi-mythical elements ala Gilgamesh).

 

[The Kingmaker]

Armenians 17
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 11-3=8 I think they should be the next ones out.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15
Hebrews 19+1=20 As a small nation, they've had a much more profound impact on the world than most great empires have had.
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Swahili/Kilwa 21
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Morningcalm]

Armenians 17
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 8
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15 - 3 = 12 (Who would lead them? Haida have scant few leaders, and not much is known about their leader choices in the first place.
Hebrews 20 + 1 = 21 (Agreed re: Hebrew influence on thought, culture, world religion, etc)
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Swahili/Kilwa 21
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Manifold]

I am very familiar with the Carthaginian governing system. Hanno the Navigator was an important person, but he was never involved directly in the government--perhaps you are thinking of one of the gazillion suffets named Hanno? Also, basileus would be a very strange translation of sopeṭ; it would much better suit milk, but for the Carthaginians Milk was a god, not a title.

That again is not true. The Phoenicians had have kings and Carthage had has a Queen and kings. The oligarchy was adopted only later.
Hanno's journey took place at monarchical times

The heart of Europe suffered a heart attack... But that doesn't matter. I'm actually happy! It proved twice to be the best Civ from the round three! Also, being the last purely (used this word to exclude Georgia lying between Europe and Asia) European Civ eliminated from the winners bracket, it proved to be the best purely European Civ in this Elimination thread!

No doubt Armenians are Europeans. They speak a language which is related to the Greek language. Are they not actually Greeks Mithridates VI of Pontus fought a cruel war for the freedom of the Greeks against Rome and his successors continue this war from Armenia. Georgia/Colchis lies north so it absolutely make sense to count them as European too.
And for Bohemia I hope that we get a medieval Europe scenario like 1000 AD with the Italian Civ. Bohemia/House of Luxembourg will get his important place there.

My daily fake vote

Armenians 17
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Burmese 8
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15 (18-3) I am not impressed by this wooden shoe
Georgians 15
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 12
Hebrews 21
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Swahili/Kilwa 21
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 11 (10+1) I only say Cold war expansion

 

[Kimiimaro]

No doubt Armenians are Europeans. They speak a language which is related to the Greek a language. Are they not actually Greeks Mithridates VI of Pontus fought a cruel war for the freedom of the Greeks against Rome and his successors continue this war from Armenia. Georgia/Colchis lies north so it absolutely make sense to count them as European too.
And for Bohemia I hope that we get a medieval Europe scenario like 1000 AD with the Italian Civ. Bohemia/House of Luxembourg will get his important place there.

Once again - "purely" European was meant a Civ that lies in Europe, which excludes Armenia and Georgia. By the way, I still have problems with writing Gruzie instead of Georgia. I always have to rewrite it

Such Scenario would be interresting, but don't forget that the Luxembourgs became kings of Bohemia in year 1310. Before that, Přemyslid dynasty ruled over the Duchy/Kingdom of Bohemia.

 

[God of Kings]

Ho Chi Minh would be an interesting leader. Just take a look at his goatee:

Some of his other portraits show him as having a fuller goatee.

 

[Returning Lurker]

Good for the Tlingit, but you can't develop an agenda and leader ability based on some largely fictitious concoction, which is what we would have to do to get one of their leaders in Civ VI as it stands. Some civilizations are simply not going to work for the game as it currently is configured. There are many ways to incorporate the unique cultural flavors of Haida/Tlingit without making them a full civ and some leader with barely any Civilopedia text. For good or ill, the Haida/Tlingit slot simply doesn't work for Civ in the same way the Olmec don't--no leader with history that we can use as their representative. I can understand fudging a unique unit a bit (see Babylon's archer units from Civ IV and V, which are based on wall paintings), but concocting a leader out of a title simply won't work for Civ.

I was just gonna say that it was hypocritical to argue Harvest Mountain Lord isn't an acceptable Olmec leader when he A) Almost certainly existed and we have no reason to seriously doubt the steles commemorating him and B) We don't have his "original" Epi-Olmec name (as in, we know what the name translates to but not how it was actually said in Epi-Olmec language) but now using a generic title rather than an actual dude (like, say, Harvest Mountain Lord) is kosher. But yeah, your reply was way better.