New Beta Version - April 20th (4-20)

[Recursive]

They were described as an emergency button, and ideally if you're managing your cities well you shouldn't have to use it at all IMO.

Having it be a required part of happiness management, especially when it gives you a permanent GPT penalty, doesn't seem like a lot of fun, especially if it's build PW -> grow -> build PW -> grow -> repeat ad infinitum.

 

[Stalker0]

They were described as an emergency button, and ideally if you're managing your cities well you shouldn't have to use it at all IMO.

Having it be a required part of happiness management, especially when it gives you a permanent GPT penalty, doesn't seem like a lot of fun, especially if it's build PW -> grow -> build PW -> grow -> repeat ad infinitum.

I think the complexity here is we have two problems:

1) Base Happiness management is still not effective enough for wide. PW is meant to be an emergency button, but people are having to hit it too early, even with "reasonable" expansion and "reasonable" sizes.

2) PW is not effective. Even when you hit the emergency button, its not doing much for happiness.


So we need both solutions to improve the system.

 

[Recursive]

I think the complexity here is we have two problems:

1) Base Happiness management is still not effective enough for wide. PW is meant to be an emergency button, but people are having to hit it too early, even with "reasonable" expansion and "reasonable" sizes.

2) PW is not effective. Even when you hit the emergency button, its not doing much for happiness.


So we need both solutions to improve the system.

I agree, I think PW are a good idea in principle and also a good way of representing the government working to relieve unhappiness from an immersion standpoint - but I think it should be there as an option for people who overextend themselves to devote some hammers and gold to getting themselves in decent shape happiness-wise, or as a panic button if unexpected problems arise - e.g. the guy who you were trading 6 luxuries with and your neighbor Attila decide to start a coop war against you.

Although in that case, you'd better have a strong military already built.

If it has to be done regularly to manage a reasonable amount of growth and expansion it's not a fun mechanic. And as you and others have said, -10% hasn't really done much...so while making it more powerful might be a good idea, I strongly favor the "make adjustments to the base happiness system" approach. G has said happiness is meant to be non-intrusive unless you push your empire to the limits.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree with others that PWs need to have a straightforward +happiness or -unhappiness reduction. I favour flat reduction.

a %-based Needs reduction isn't guaranteed to move the needle if you really are in the hole. If a PW is completed by someone and the % empire / on the top UI doesn't move at all, that's horrible. PW literally has 1 job, and if it can't do it, or can be put in a situation where it appears that it can't do it, then it's going to feel really bad, especially for new players who are still trying to grasp how this happiness mechanic even works.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with others that PWs need to have a straightforward +happiness or -unhappiness reduction. I favour flat reduction.

a %-based Needs reduction isn't guaranteed to move the needle if you really are in the hole. If a PW is completed by someone and the % empire / on the top UI doesn't move at all, that's horrible. PW literally has 1 job, and if it can't do it, or can be put in a situation where it appears that it can't do it, then it's going to feel really bad, especially for new players who are still trying to grasp how this happiness mechanic even works.

Agreed. One area that I think is an easy look is to increase Empire needs reduction power of the Military Base and Arsenal. That would be a way to more directly tackle wide but leave Tall alone, which right now seems to do very well with happiness (as it should).

 

[Bhawb]

Agreed. One area that I think is an easy look is to increase Empire needs reduction power of the Military Base and Arsenal. That would be a way to more directly tackle wide but leave Tall alone, which right now seems to do very well with happiness (as it should).

Do many wide players build these? I stop building defensive buildings after Castles except in cities on the frontline that I expect to need them in, and cities that need the secondary traits like Air production and theft protection. They have really high maintenance and production cost, have just 1 policy relevance; they just aren't worth the cost unless you really need that extra city defense. It wouldn't hurt, but I can't see myself building them for happiness in a wide empire when an extra 2+ happiness per city just doesn't translate to meaning much.

 

[chicorbeef]

Do many wide players build these? I stop building defensive buildings after Castles except in cities on the frontline that I expect to need them in, and cities that need the secondary traits like Air production and theft protection. They have really high maintenance and production cost, have just 1 policy relevance; they just aren't worth the cost unless you really need that extra city defense. It wouldn't hurt, but I can't see myself building them for happiness in a wide empire when an extra 2+ happiness per city just doesn't translate to meaning much.

Yeah, I don't build Arsenals/Military bases. Like at all.

Honestly I think we should either scrap Public Works or make it into a building. It's supposed to be an emergency button, but that creates a dilemma where if it's too powerful for its cost then it's abusable and if it's too weak it's useless. As a building it wouldn't really be abuseable but I don't know if we want to add a simple happiness building. It could be worth the shot.

 

[Stalker0]

Do many wide players build these? I stop building defensive buildings after Castles except in cities on the frontline that I expect to need them in, and cities that need the secondary traits like Air production and theft protection. They have really high maintenance and production cost, have just 1 policy relevance; they just aren't worth the cost unless you really need that extra city defense. It wouldn't hurt, but I can't see myself building them for happiness in a wide empire when an extra 2+ happiness per city just doesn't translate to meaning much.

Considering that most wide cities are unhappy, +2 happiness = +20% Growth, +20% unit production. That's not nothing.

 

[Txurce]

Yeah, I don't build Arsenals/Military bases. Like at all.

Honestly I think we should either scrap Public Works or make it into a building. It's supposed to be an emergency button, but that creates a dilemma where if it's too powerful for its cost then it's abusable and if it's too weak it's useless. As a building it wouldn't really be abuseable but I don't know if we want to add a simple happiness building. It could be worth the shot.

I'd guess there's an accessible range between abusable and useless. Moving the slider on what we have now is a reasonable way to see if there's a need for more radical changes.

One alternative, if executable, would be to make it a true emergency option by giving it an "abusable" kick that degrades steadily into uselessness. RL Public Works provide largely temporary economic boosts.

 

[Bhawb]

Considering that most wide cities are unhappy, +2 happiness = +20% Growth, +20% unit production. That's not nothing.

It is about as close to nothing as you can get without literally being nothing. Growth reduction isn't a concern for cities that are already getting to be too populated, and spending 3500 production to gain 20% unit production doesn't math out very well.

 

[pineappledan]

The aim has always been to get city happiness management to the point where only the poopiest tundra cities are going to need the help that a PW provides if a skillful player is managing their empire well.

That Having Been Said. PW need to be effective. They need to be usable. They need to be tangible. Then, balance happiness around the goal that Emperor+ players will choose to build something that actually provides yields over PWs 99% of the time. If people who don't know as much about the game aren't supposed to use it then it shouldn't exist. If it exists then it should be at least viable. Sub-optimal, sure, but many of you are basically arguing that PWs should be either garbage or Byzantine, in which case they are just a n00b-trap and a source of impotent frustration.

I agree with @Enrico Swagolo that scaling PWs on era feels like an unnecessary punish for people who resort to PWs (ie. n00bs), because it chastises them for not having predicted a happiness problem 1-2 eras ago. Scaling by number of previous projects should be sufficient.
Another unnecessary double-punish for n00bs is no flat unhappiness reduction; people who aren't on the forum have no idea if they are even working unless they see an immediate bump in on the top bar.

People like @Recursive and @Txurce are talking about how we need to make these PWs as peripheral as possible. But... Why? Or perhaps more accurately, How? And how are we going to communicate that? Are we going to make the button on the UI smaller so n00bs will click it less, or bury it in some sub-menu? Or perhaps make the project contextual, requiring a certain level of global or local unhappiness before it can be built?

If we can agree that VP is more for the thousands of regular downloaders who don't speak up, rather than the few dozen of us here who do, then I think we can agree that PWs need to become more accessible and their benefits need to be more tangible. I'm trying to get my wife into this game and sometimes it feels like people on this forum are kneecapping me by lobbying for the obfuscation of these sorts of on-ramp mechanics.

 

[Rekk]

I agree with @Enrico Swagolo that scaling PWs on era feels like an unnecessary punish for people who resort to PWs (ie. n00bs), because it chastises them for not having predicted a happiness problem 1-2 eras ago. Scaling by number of previous projects should be sufficient.

Another unnecessary double-punish for n00bs is no flat unhappiness reduction; people who aren't on the forum have no idea if they are even working unless they see an immediate bump in on the top bar.

I don't agree regarding scaling on era. The point of scaling on era is that a city will take a comparable amount of time producing their first public works in classical as it does in industrial, for the same benefit. If you choose to build public works in classical because you forsee issues in industrial, then you send X turns now for no immediate benefit instead of spending those X turns on something actually useful.

If you don't let it scale on era, then a public works that takes 10 turns to build in classical will take 1 turn to build in industrial, when the gain in either era is supposed to be the same. What is supposed to be a hard/emergency decision in classical will be an obvious choice to automatically enter the build queue in industrial.

Even with it scaling on era, it's faster for a late era city to build public works than the earlier eras (public works costs scales linearly with era, while city production scales much faster.)

 

[Recursive]

People like @Recursive are talking about how we need to make these PWs as peripheral as possible. But... Why? Or perhaps more accurately, How? And how are you going to communicate that? Are you going to make the button on the UI smaller so n00bs will click it less, or bury it in some sub-menu?

If we can agree that VP is more for the thousands of regular downloaders who don't speak up, rather than the few dozen of us here who do, then I think we can agree that PWs need to become more accessible and their benefits need to be more tangible. I'm trying to get my wife into this game and sometimes it feels like people on this forum are kneecapping me by lobbying for the obfuscation of these sorts of on-ramp mechanics.

I wasn't disputing that it should be effective nor arguing that it should be obfuscated from players, I was arguing that it shouldn't be a required part of happiness management if you manage your empire well and don't overextend yourself in growth, science or expansion (big unexpected surprises aside) - otherwise the mechanic isn't fun. PW in their current form are fine aside from needing to be more effective, but I think the base happiness system needs adjustments so it acts like more of an emergency button and less of a crutch you inevitably have to lean on once you reach a certain point.

I feel like your post is a bit unnecessarily accusatory, although I think this was unintentional.

I don't agree regarding scaling on era. The point of scaling on era is that a city will take a comparable amount of time producing their first public works in classical as it does in industrial, for the same benefit.

If you don't let it scale on era, then a public works that takes 10 turns to build in classical will take 1 turn to build in industrial, when the gain in either era is supposed to be the same. What is supposed to be a hard/emergency decision in classical will be an obvious and beneficial choice in industrial.

Point, although I agree that a flat happiness/unhappiness adjustment is going to be more easily understood by new players and more effective as an emergency button.

 

[Rekk]

Point, although I agree that a flat happiness/unhappiness adjustment is going to be more easily understood by new players and more effective as an emergency button.

I have no opinion on what the exact bonus should be other than "actually effective".

 

[pineappledan]

I feel like your post is a bit unnecessarily accusatory, although I think this was unintentional.

Added more names so it doesn't sounds like I'm singling you out so much. Also, I reduced the number of times I use "you", which is unnecessarily accusatory. It's not my intention to demonize anyone, but rather to point out that the opposing viewpoint is decidedly not n00b-friendly, and that I think we can do better by making VP's design a bit more humane.

 

[Rekk]

People like @Recursive and @Txurce are talking about how we need to make these PWs as peripheral as possible. But... Why? Or perhaps more accurately, How? And how are we going to communicate that? Are we going to make the button on the UI smaller so n00bs will click it less, or bury it in some sub-menu? Or perhaps make the project contextual, requiring a certain level of global or local unhappiness before it can be built?

If we can agree that VP is more for the thousands of regular downloaders who don't speak up, rather than the few dozen of us here who do, then I think we can agree that PWs need to become more accessible and their benefits need to be more tangible. I'm trying to get my wife into this game and sometimes it feels like people on this forum are kneecapping me by lobbying for the obfuscation of these sorts of on-ramp mechanics.

The first step could be to state it as an emergency measure in the description. We could also rename it Bread & Circuses .

 

[Recursive]

The first step could be to state it as an emergency measure in the description. We could also rename it Bread & Circuses .

Can't read? Bored out of your mind? Your fields are on fire and artillery shells kill one of your neighbors every other week? Your leader Genghis Khan has been at war for what feels like several million years and you yearn for Indonesia's Freedom?

Introducing Bread and Circuses (TM), the government's solution to all your wartime and empire mismanagement problems. Bring your family to your nearest Public FUN Center and allow our food and mindless entertainment to dissuade you from all those Bad Thoughts of rebellion and secession.

Not regulated by the FDA. Side effects may include loss of income, job, house, city or country (by vassalization rather than genocide if you're lucky), as well as the misplacement or abandonment of everything near and dear to you. And halitosis. But hey, we have cake!

...and the cake is a lie.

 

[Aristos]

Can't read? Bored out of your mind? Your fields are on fire and artillery shells kill one of your neighbors every other week? Your leader Genghis Khan has been at war for what feels like several million years and you yearn for Indonesia's Freedom?

Introducing Bread and Circuses (TM), the government's solution to all your wartime and empire mismanagement problems. Bring your family to your nearest Public FUN Center and allow our food and mindless entertainment to dissuade you from all those Bad Thoughts of rebellion and secession.

Not regulated by the FDA. Side effects may include loss of income, job, house, city or country (by vassalization rather than genocide if you're lucky), as well as the misplacement or abandonment of everything near and dear to you. And halitosis. But hey, we have cake!

...and the cake is a lie.

McCake?

 

[pineappledan]

The first step could be to state it as an emergency measure in the description.

First of all, is it really? Without a contextual clue like making them un-clickable if your city is happy, like a "break glass in case of fire", then they are just a pure unhappiness reduction tool. From that description alone, their use is self-evident. While I don't put much stock in the average player, we should give them enough credit to know that solving happiness by growing their economy is the long-term solution, and killing unhappiness is short-term. I think it's evident enough that PWs don't generate yields, so they don't offer any long-term benefit aside from staving off rebellion.

Much of this debate is becoming a retread of the happiness balance discussion, starting on page 21. I think we would save a lot of time if people brushed up on what's already been discussed.

We could also rename it Bread & Circuses .

This is actually what brought me around to G's decision to make PWs a repeatable project instead of a building line. Vanilla already had a building line dedicated to a Panem et Circenses view happiness: The Arena line. VP scrapped that concept and repurposed arenas for production, Zoos for tourism, and Stadiums for GAs, and all 3 are exclusively boredom reduction now. Happiness has been changed conceptually from vanilla's conception of happiness as hedonistic attainment of merriment to the more Epicurean idea of elimination of pain. Alternatively, you could view it as a move from capitalism's focus on creating luxury vs socialism's focus on eliminating abjection.

If G had gone with my suggestion of a new building line for happiness, rather than the project, then we would have re-made the original Arena building line. Oops.

 

[Stalker0]

Without a contextual clue like making them un-clickable if your city is happy

Is that possible? Its an interesting idea.