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New Beta Version - April 20th (4-20)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Apr 20, 2019.

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  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I feel like in this situation we have not explored alternatives, but moved right into random intercepts. Again, I am fine making interception do less damage if we think at base its too strong. We can weaken certain Air promotions, like the one that auto heals every round. Maybe planes don't benefit from medic, etc.

    In the previous model I may have agreed with you that air power was too strong because Triplanes did it all. They stopped other planes and killed units, and do "ok" against cities. Now triplanes exist as pure anti-air, with pretty limited ground attacks compared to bombers. You effectively need 2 planes to do the same job as one...that's a pretty large nerf.

    So in summary, I agree with you about the potential power of planes, and agree with you that its important to ensure a reasonable curtailing of air power in the spirit of balance. But I believe we can explore several other viable options that don't introduce a random element into an otherwise non-random combat system.
     
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  2. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    I agree with all that @Stalker0 wrote. Regarding interception, I would at least increase the chance of interception.
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    A successful Interception effectively nullifies an Air Strike. However, only one Interception is attempted per air strike, no matter how many interceptors are available.

    Destroyers and AA guns can move and attack while still providing air interception duties, fighters cannot.

    At 100% interception, you can be assured that you will nullify one air strike, or force one air sweep. That requires (assuming 25% per promotion) a fully interceptor promoted fighter. That seems fine. Who has the advantage between an Interceptor-promoted fighter and an Air-Sweep-promoted fighter? The Air-Sweep promotions, right? Since the promotions are meant to counter a counter?
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    If you counter a counter, you activate my trap card.

    G
     
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  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    This makes me sad because I'm just getting done making a civ which focuses on public works as part of its UA. Seems like Landmarks are doing what Public Works SHOULD be doing. Maybe instead of giving a % needs reduction in cities, the public works should give a flat -1:c5unhappy: from all needs in the City? Effectively, the Public works shrinks your potential unhappiness cap by 1 for all types of unhappiness.
     
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Public Works are just getting a % buff. I still think it's useful, it's just finding a place where a repeating PW project isn't OP.

    G
     
  7. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It needs to be a national bonus. Just having it provide to the city itself isn't strong enough if you are going wide. Even a -1% to all cities can do wonders.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think that's fine, but I do think some base happiness adjustments are needed as well. I wouldn't consider 11 cities "super wide" on a standard map, and yet the fact that most of my cities are at maximum unhappiness is a problem.

    As we said before, PW is meant to be an escape value, not a core part of happiness balance.
     
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  9. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I'm playing an Emperor game right now. 11 cities, 2 puppets, t271. My happiness is at 97%. Two cities (and the recently conquered puppets) are unhappy.

    My prior game, roughly the same situation, I was struggling to stay above 70%, despite building PW.

    From my perch today, I would say that wide happiness is in your control, but it's tough maintaining it. If you dig a hole for yourself — easy to do going wide — then PW isn't going to dig you out of it. But if I recall, they were never supposed to.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    they’re not? Then we should remove them from the game entirely.

    Public works are a repeatable project which were added so that users would have a straightforward, inexhaustible tool to convert :c5production: into empire stability. Other game testers have reported back that they do not do what it says on the package. You come back saying that what it says on the package isn’t what it does, or should do. So let’s either make public works perform as advertised, so that no hole is too deep that you can’t throw a pile of :c5production: to get back out of it, or get rid of public works
     
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  11. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I don't think they were advertised as such. I recall Gazebo saying they would be something along the lines of emergency band-aids, not permanent empire stabilizers. This is what they are now—I haven't had a single game since PW were added in which unhappiness went into one of those nightmarish spirals. Gazebo just said he was going to boost their strength. This sounds like a good next step to me. But for true empire stability, the mod provides multiple other tools and (important) strategies.
     
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  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Here is what I interpret from Public Works. If you have a city that is unhappy you have 2 options:
    1. increase the necessary yields and lower needs in that city using the traditional methods (infrastructure, worker reassignment, ITRs) to close the distance between city and median yields.
    2. Reduce unhappiness directly through a project, directly converting :c5production: production into :c5unhappy: happiness reduction.
    Public Works is easy to understand and addresses happiness directly, but does not contribute to the empire's economy or growth in any way. This makes them a useful tool for newbies and for people that have run out of infrastructure/tile options to address specific needs by any other means, but makes them an impractical, inefficient, last-resort option.

    I do indeed recall G describing PWs as a band-aid, but that never made sense to me even then, because a permanent, compounding effect isn't a band-aid. It's too useful to be such, unless it's so ineffective that building 1 or 100 makes no difference
     
  13. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    If I have to decide, do I use hammers for infrastructure or for public works, I will always invest in I frastructure. Infrastructure will give me something back in return, public works not. I didn't feel any influence, even running 6 or 7 times the project in one city.

    And I don't think public works numbers have to be tuned up. Cause all the other need reduction options (policies, wonder) feel so underwhelming weak in comparison to the modifiers, that it should be easier to tune down the modifiers, to reach a stable balance.
     
  14. Dolen

    Dolen Chieftain

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    Perhaps an unpopular idea, anyway my question is, in the first place "why happiness system has to be this complicated and cumbersome, out of all other VP elements?".

    The original idea behind it must have been something like "Oh I can't found cities surrounded by useless tundra just to get my hands on some irons, because it's going to produce extra unhappiness!" you know, to promote more careful expansion.
    However, in reality, what's happening in my mind is instead like this; "all of my cities will suffer from unhappiness ANYWAY, so let's found it anyway...".

    To be honest, all the percentage modifiers for culture, science and whatnot, they don't exactly tell us HOW MUCH EXACT UNHAPPINESS will be produced, which is all what I care regarding happiness.
    I believe it's not directing players in the originally intended way because of the cumbersomeness (unless he is super-smart like AI and can always take into account the modifiers), and thus needs to be simpler.

    With all that said, the current happiness system, in my opinion, is far better than the previous one and I wish to see the system develop in this direction.
     
  15. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    Perhaps the hammer cost should increase (exponentially?) every time you build it.
     
  16. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I actually think Public Works should be good. I believe the cost shouldn't scale with era, but only with the amount of times they're built - this way, getting out of a tough situation will be easier. If a Public Works isn't effective at taking out even a single :c5angry:, or alternatively adding a :c5happy:, it has no merit and you're throwing Production away for nothing in return. -Unhappiness buildings do have other benefits, like Police Station/Constabulary slow down Spies or hinder them otherwise and they're buffed by Policies as an additional help, PW has no other benefits than bringing a rusty, dull knife to an Unhappiness gun fight.

    The problem with cost scaling with era is it punishes you for not predicting a city might be having happiness problems 100 turns later and not building one in classical/ancient era. By the time a player has problems, the cost of a PW has quadrupled, with the benefits not being increased unlike the emissary line.

    I get it, PW are meant to be only for a case of emergency and ideally players shouldn't be building them at all, but they fail in this case. You're better off just getting a random yield building or an unit that actually does something for you.
     
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  17. Edaka

    Edaka Chieftain

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    It could provide +1 flat local :c5happy: Happiness along with the needs reductions, just to be absolutely sure it always has some immediate tangible worth.
     
  18. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    What about public works giving temporary happiness bonuses? (So once few generation passed, the population take the thing for granted, so no happiness bonuses).
     
  19. Borussia

    Borussia Chieftain

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    Wasn`t the main goal of public works to allow very high population cities to exist without having extreme unhappiness.
    I mean very large cities (that can use all 36 tiles for example) that already have built everything else.

    High unhappiness in newly annexed cities is fine I think because we can puppet them.
     
  20. Dolen

    Dolen Chieftain

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    Unless it's flat + happiness - unhappiness there is no motive for building PW.
     

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