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New Beta Version - March 14th (3-14)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Its not like you ever went before unhappy in an OCC. You do need the golden age points to be produced though.

    I think adding like 4 initial settlement bonus happiness is a pretty clean solution.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    That’s how it works right now with the handicaps. Have you played the current version?

    How it works now with flat happiness? I’m confused. The only difference would be getting rid of the flat happiness scaled on difficulty and making it l, say, 4 in capital and 1 in all other cities for all difficulties.

    Re: empire calculation, how would all you feel about making it ‘Happy Faces / Unhappy Faces‘ ?

    This would allow happy cities to float unhappy ones at the empire level, and would reduce the potency of padding empire happiness by simply growing.

    Thoughts?

    G
     
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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I explained this all in detail in the happiness discussion thread, I don’t want to do so again here.

    G
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I like this conceptually and visually.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    We would still need a 'buffer' of happiness in the capital to prevent overly swingy %s at low pop, perhaps 5 free happiness in the capital, period, for all difficulties.

    G
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You should get X happiness in all cities + Y happiness as a bonus for any city (like how natural wonders are used).

    Or changing the empire calculation.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The issue with that (and really, my biggest issue with empire happiness calculations) is that, when the modulo rolls over, the capital is suddenly drained of the excess rollover happiness.

    https://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/modulus.html

    I'm at a loss for how to rethink those happiness elements, however, to avoid the modulo.

    G
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Unhappy / Happy I think has two advantages:

    1) It gives a stronger indication of how your cities are doing locally. I've mentioned before how surprised I was that while Globally I was doing very well, I had a number of cities with a lot of unhappiness. This would get you a little closer to the "truth" of your cities. Its nice for players like myself that don't like to micromanage as stringently.

    2) It penalizes expansion more. I think one problem with the current system is that it actually rewards expansion instead of curbing it.


    Now all of that said, I don't think the current flavor is bad, might need some tuning, but its intuitive and does allow you to utilize a well developed city to maintain control over the greater empire, which can be appealing. So I'm good either way.
     
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  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    This. Unhappiness is inherently not a very fun mechanic, but its necessary to slow expansion. This avoids winning only because that guy got a start with a ton of empty land to throw cities on.

    The current version doesn't really punish what its supposed to punish, while it does punish growing a lot, which even regardless of happiness existing isn't all that great of a strategy.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'm aware of 2, and have been since it launched (as you'll note it was my immediate reservation with the system). This is why I think a happy/unhappy algorithm is the way to go. It is 'expansion agnostic' as long as new cities don't grossly add to the unhappiness cap.

    It also gets to @Enginseer's idea of 50% being the 'midpoint' of good/bad for an empire's approval rating.

    G
     
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  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I did, but didn't notice that there's a flat 1 happy citizen outside of any other consideration. Actually, because I'm playing at lower difficulty, I'm not facing happiness problems. Just during the expansion phase, happiness lowered to 80%

    I also like Enginseer idea, since I somewhat miss knowing how much happiness buffer I still have. I could look at gap, but it is not the same.
     
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  12. Skynet90

    Skynet90 Chieftain

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    Hi, long time lurker here, thanks for the great mod.
    Wouldn't it be possible to distribute the remainder n between the first n settled cities instead of it all going to the capital (E.g. with a remainder of 5 the first 5 settled cities get 1 additional happiness compared to the other ones)? That should eliminate the swinginess.
     
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  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Then, how about this:
    - The first three citizens in every city are immune to unhappiness. This would only affect in the expasion phase, and would relieve Spain's immediate 3 pop per city issue. Preventing growth forever in all these secondary cities would not be a wise strategy. 3 people are enough to get most cities started, and it is the same population a pioneer starts with.

    @Skynet90, that's a great idea for your very first post!
     
  14. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Chieftain

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    I was wondering, does natural wonder give a extra happiness to the city where the natural wonder is?(like luxury local happiness)
     
  15. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    I especially like this because the capital is least likely to need happiness due to building most national wonders.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I agree Spain is very hard to play. At least with the same old strategy. I may try now with stop growth options, to see if I can handle more than 3 cities.

    Increasing cost of civil units is counter-productive. Workers and caravans are more expensive when we need them most. Might accept it for settlers.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Not a bad idea at all. It would require me to rework how the function is implemented from a technical standpoint (and would require a new memory variable), but it's not bad.

    That's what the handicap bonus that already exists can and does do, though. Right now it's just set at '1' instead of '3' for satellite cities.

    G
     
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  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Yeah, you said this, and I've seen that every city says +1 happiness from handicap now. But for Spain that's very insufficient. I'm trying holding growth with the 'stop growth' button. I've settled 7 cities by turn 82, and happiness is still 89% (two natural wonders, three luxuries, king difficulty). I halted most my cities at size 2, and now I have them at 3 or 4, once the tiles were improved.

    So, it is possible to play Spain with the current system, it's just annoying.

    Update. At turn 140 none of my cities need to forbid growth any longer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  19. John.B.C

    John.B.C Chieftain

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    So I decided to try this new system again with the latest update... I played until reniassance until i grew too bored of this new happiness system and reinstalled the old 2-17-3 patch once again.

    Here's a few thoughts on my experience:

    -The tradition opener seemed fixed with the +2 happiness added to it. When unhappiness was going down to 67% due to growth, it jumped right back up when I picked my first policy. So far so good. But then as others has experienced, did I earlier not foresee the problem of Spain, but can now easily imagine how Spain and fast growing civs, not going tradition, might end up with spawning rebells at their doorstep.

    -I'm not going to comment on happiness as stable or not since I didn't consider it hard, an issue, or something that was bothering me before this change to the system - other than that I throughough my game didn't see it drop below 83%, whatever that means (earlier it meant either negative or positive faith, gold, culture, food and science). Oh, it was this one time, when capturing a city-state it temporarily dropped down from 98 to 76 , but it quickly went back up again. I had no problem working whatever specialist I wanted to work.

    -Early economy feels harder due to 2 gold per luxury (in rare cases 3 is offered). I even found myself going into the negative even though I wasn't building units for warefare. This getting 2 gold/turn feels very dull compared to my current "2-17-3" game, when I quite early managed to strike a deal of 6 gold/turn (as a America I need gold! :))

    -Fun factor descreased due to no more "shop around", even though this way of trading always felt annoyingly clumsy due to the fact that you have to click through every AI leader to see what they'll offer for your "goods" [mod request if possible]. 2 gold/luxury feels less immersive and fun. I also couldn't make sense of the UI on what surplus of luxuries was in my current possession (they are not shown, as before, due to having no value?). I found myself repeatedly contacting other AI leaders just to see what I had available for trade.

    Also, as I have expressed before, trading luxuries feels dumbed down, since I don't know "why" any party would want to trade something that simply doesn't matter at all (besides WLTKD's, and in rare cases, city-state quests). Earlier it meant, that I could dig myself out of a whole, or even getting those few extra % to get +10% of everything, which was a fun factor. Yes, even getting out of a miserable state of affairs >-10, could be the cause of great satisfaction ("I did it!"). And not only so - the difference between -10 and +10 was huge concerning all those variables connected to it.

    Happiness before = faith, culture, gold, food and science.
    Happiness today = food

    I had -30% growth in some cities, but since fixing growth is just uninteresting compared to how it was before when fixing happiness was equal to fixing my "economy" making an comeback or creating an edge with (faith, culture, gold, science and food) - I couldn't be less bothered about building buildngs to deal with local problems - I acctually didn't care at all. But as I understand it, this is kind of the point with the new system, that I can now focus on other stuff and no longer do I have to bother about this? Back in 2016-17 I even used to move "working tiles" around to gain a few points of happiness. The difference of working 1 culture, science, gold compared to not working it, could sometimes be the difference of 1 happiness. This kind of micromanaging of my citites was very pleasurable and it gave a great depth to the game. The joy of reading the UI, seeing what a city "produce, needs, new need" isn't there anymore and hasn't been for a while. For those who use governors and automate their workers must be perfectly happy with were we are at today. ;)

    -allying city-states not as important anymore, and the fun doing this has decreased significantly. I found myself not bothering at all about building diplomatic units. Earlier it could be a huge thing allying a city-state having two unique luxuries currently not available to you (gaining, faith, culture, gold etc. through more happiness). This even more so when it comes to merchantile city-states, they are now completely worthless. The value of befriending a merchantile city-state in early game is today equal to +1 gold/turn.

    But I got the idea this morning, that in the future I can maybe install enginseer's city state mod to some what solve this problem for myself - great! :)

    -resources like salt, and all others with a monopoly bonus of giving a surplus to food, feels devaluated and not as interesting anymore. Even wonders such as Tempel of Artemis get a touch of this decreased fun factor too since my capital in this game grew quite nicely with an general happiness bonus of 35-50%. India is a civ that I can't see myself play at all for the same reason. Perhaps this is connected to the fact that I went tradition?

    -Citadels has been reduced to a mere strategical defensive building. I can't put into words, the many thoughtprocesses that went through my mind, that no longer is required because I simply don't need to think about expanding my territory using citadels onto valueable resources currently unavialble to me. It's like when my mind tries to do it, I halt and realize, "don't bother they don't mean anything anyways".

    I should probably wrap this up somehow. I can relate to the "smooth sailing experience" of others, not having to bother at all about happiness. This felt quite nice some how, but the experience also feels alot more "shallow" compared to how it used to work when happiness was tied to one's entire economy and when luxuries acctually was worth something. I admire the effort behind this and I greatly appreciate it, but I will sit by the sidelines from now on, ready to jump back in if trade & luxuries are ever to be made interesting again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I thought resource diversity still worked for global happiness in addition to the local happiness from connected resources. At least there's an empire happiness showing in all my cities, from things like discovering natural wonders, luxuries and city state happiness. It happens to be very low, maybe because the most of it goes to the capital. And I didn't investigate further because with 11 cities I'm not expecting global happiness to be noticeable locally.
     

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