Yep, if the happiness system remains as it is Spain will probably need an adjustment. I've tried a few starts as Spain and its consistently a problem. I've adjusted to an aggressive early lux strategy with them on Emperor. It helps somewhat, but I still have hit the happy limit in the very early parts of the game.
New Beta Version - March 14th (3-14)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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Yep, if the happiness system remains as it is Spain will probably need an adjustment. I've tried a few starts as Spain and its consistently a problem. I've adjusted to an aggressive early lux strategy with them on Emperor. It helps somewhat, but I still have hit the happy limit in the very early parts of the game.
pineappledan
Deity
Eesh... glad I took Food On Settle off Sumer earlier or they’d be crashing and burning the same way. I’ve been a vocal critic of the food on settle for Spain for a while; it feels a bit surreal to have that portion of her UA causing people to rage/force restarts now.
I think the better solution is to give more spare happiness. The handicap should have a per city aspect, and top level aspect. The problem isn't unique to Spain, Siam can meet food city states, and anyone can find population ruins.
TranceBlossom
Warlord
I'm playing a spain game where happiness wasn't at all debilitating in the early stages... unless you're going super REX I think it's something to be aware of but not an insurmountable issue by any means
tu_79
Deity
Maybe reconsider the way global happiness is calculated.
Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard, you’ll bruise.
Spain’s not ‘crashing and burning.’
I am open to ideas on a different method for empire-wide unhappiness calculation.
G
Difficulty? I play on immortal. I don't know if anything has changed from last update, but playing the ottomans hitting size 6 had rebells spawning. Spain must be even worse together with tradition. Spain wasn't a problem in earlier patches - so obviously Spain isn't a problem as is alleged by some. It's the unhappiness striking the Capital if you decide to build a few things (at the same time just growing) before you get your first settler out.
You are now simply forced to play in a certain way to avoid this; a not so optimal way as before.
Thats why my approval system reduction needs to be looked at. Don't go for 100%, aim for 66%.
Ultimately there are two issues at the moment:
1) Global Happiness is unstable with 1 city in the very early game. In the early game, your growth is going to be much quicker than your production, so you can't get the infrastructure you need to beat the unhappiness that kicks in from your growth. So you are wholly reliant on your base happiness level to see you through. Once you get your second city gets up, and you have a little time to build infrastructure, I find that Global Happiness completely stabilizes. Its only the very early game that is the problem.
2) The early happiness that is very important to number 1 is now strongly tied to difficulty and factors of luck..much more so than ever before. The difference between finding an early natural wonder, or getting a +1 pop hut....can be the difference between a 35% penalty to your first settler.
So in terms of fixes....
1) Settlers don't count as a unit for the penalty. Doesn't fix everything but it corrects the biggest issue with going unhappy.
2) Have their be a window of time before the happiness system kicks in. A little klugey, but it means the base model doesn't have to be changed.
3) We add more happiness to start the game, and then make the Global Happiness ratios kick in higher (so maybe 80% instead of 75% as an example).
4) We add an early bonus to happiness (maybe based on difficulty) that decays over time. So a "starter happy". Call it a "founding my civilization" bonus.
I like idea of a ‘new settlement’ timed bonus. Easy to do, easy to illustrate in UI.
Omen of Peace
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 404
No major happiness problem in my recent Spanish Immortal game. I did emphasize production in the capital after reaching population 4 or so, so that would have slowed down any issue.
It did seem that War Weariness was less impactful on my opponent (the first and main one was Shoshone; there was a long grind before I prevailed) than it used to.
It did seem that War Weariness was less impactful on my opponent (the first and main one was Shoshone; there was a long grind before I prevailed) than it used to.
pineappledan
Deity
Maybe happiness system can kick in once the second city is settled/conquered? That makes OCCs weird though...
So G mentioned that an "Initial Settlement" happy bonus was possible. Aka a temporary happiness bonus that eventually fades.
That should take care of the problem, as it gives a civ time to expand, build infrastructure, to stabilize.
So then the followup question is on OCC/Venice. Has anyone tried a OCC in the new version? If you can stabilize with an OCC, than the temp happy bonus should do the job to fix the problem. If OCC continues to struggle with Global Happiness throughout than we might need to think of something else, but generally I have always find OCC very easy on happiness, I don't see why it wouldn't be the same after the initial setup phase.
I think I might go one step further and just have this be the 'handicap.' Have it be the same for all difficulties, and make it so that the handicap fades over time. Remove current perma-handicap value.
G
tu_79
Deity
The simplest solution is giving capitals a little extra bit of happiness. But this won't scale very well.
Other solution might be counting citizens in capital twice for happiness, although this is pretty obscure.
But if the problem comes from the difficulty, being under the median is very punishing. A temporary bonus could be a trap.
So, what about a flat happiness bonus in every city so the first citizen is always happy, no matter what?
Edit. In other words, iLimit starts at CitySize - 1.
Other solution might be counting citizens in capital twice for happiness, although this is pretty obscure.
But if the problem comes from the difficulty, being under the median is very punishing. A temporary bonus could be a trap.
So, what about a flat happiness bonus in every city so the first citizen is always happy, no matter what?
Edit. In other words, iLimit starts at CitySize - 1.
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pineappledan
Deity
That doesn’t sound like a bug. you Have always been able to connect resources by settling on them, even if you don’t have the improvement tech
Dolen
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2018
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- 83
I know it's beta, but I have to say the new happiness system seemed somewhat awkward and clumsy to me.
1. "Why acquire a wider variety of luxuries?"
which was one fun part of the early game for me, and it's gone although there is now local luxury bonus.
2. Global unhappiness represented in percentage
This raises "1 unexpected pop increase can ruin your entire game" issue, and another is what people have been discussing, "the Spain problem".
I want to ask Gazebo, if I may so, what was the reason you changed the happiness system in the first place?
What was specifically the problems in the previous system that you wished to address?
1. "Why acquire a wider variety of luxuries?"
which was one fun part of the early game for me, and it's gone although there is now local luxury bonus.
2. Global unhappiness represented in percentage
This raises "1 unexpected pop increase can ruin your entire game" issue, and another is what people have been discussing, "the Spain problem".
I want to ask Gazebo, if I may so, what was the reason you changed the happiness system in the first place?
What was specifically the problems in the previous system that you wished to address?
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