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New Beta Version - March 14th (3-14)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yep, if the happiness system remains as it is Spain will probably need an adjustment. I've tried a few starts as Spain and its consistently a problem. I've adjusted to an aggressive early lux strategy with them on Emperor. It helps somewhat, but I still have hit the happy limit in the very early parts of the game.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Eesh... glad I took Food On Settle off Sumer earlier or they’d be crashing and burning the same way. I’ve been a vocal critic of the food on settle for Spain for a while; it feels a bit surreal to have that portion of her UA causing people to rage/force restarts now.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I think the better solution is to give more spare happiness. The handicap should have a per city aspect, and top level aspect. The problem isn't unique to Spain, Siam can meet food city states, and anyone can find population ruins.
     
    Viralvoid likes this.
  4. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Chieftain

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    I'm playing a spain game where happiness wasn't at all debilitating in the early stages... unless you're going super REX I think it's something to be aware of but not an insurmountable issue by any means
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Maybe reconsider the way global happiness is calculated.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard, you’ll bruise.

    Spain’s not ‘crashing and burning.’





    I am open to ideas on a different method for empire-wide unhappiness calculation.

    G
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  7. John.B.C

    John.B.C Chieftain

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    Difficulty? I play on immortal. I don't know if anything has changed from last update, but playing the ottomans hitting size 6 had rebells spawning. Spain must be even worse together with tradition. Spain wasn't a problem in earlier patches - so obviously Spain isn't a problem as is alleged by some. It's the unhappiness striking the Capital if you decide to build a few things (at the same time just growing) before you get your first settler out.

    You are now simply forced to play in a certain way to avoid this; a not so optimal way as before.
     
  8. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Thats why my approval system reduction needs to be looked at. Don't go for 100%, aim for 66%.
     
    bigcat88 and Moi Magnus like this.
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ultimately there are two issues at the moment:

    1) Global Happiness is unstable with 1 city in the very early game. In the early game, your growth is going to be much quicker than your production, so you can't get the infrastructure you need to beat the unhappiness that kicks in from your growth. So you are wholly reliant on your base happiness level to see you through. Once you get your second city gets up, and you have a little time to build infrastructure, I find that Global Happiness completely stabilizes. Its only the very early game that is the problem.

    2) The early happiness that is very important to number 1 is now strongly tied to difficulty and factors of luck..much more so than ever before. The difference between finding an early natural wonder, or getting a +1 pop hut....can be the difference between a 35% penalty to your first settler.

    So in terms of fixes....

    1) Settlers don't count as a unit for the penalty. Doesn't fix everything but it corrects the biggest issue with going unhappy.
    2) Have their be a window of time before the happiness system kicks in. A little klugey, but it means the base model doesn't have to be changed.
    3) We add more happiness to start the game, and then make the Global Happiness ratios kick in higher (so maybe 80% instead of 75% as an example).
    4) We add an early bonus to happiness (maybe based on difficulty) that decays over time. So a "starter happy". Call it a "founding my civilization" bonus.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I like idea of a ‘new settlement’ timed bonus. Easy to do, easy to illustrate in UI.
     
  11. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    No major happiness problem in my recent Spanish Immortal game. I did emphasize production in the capital after reaching population 4 or so, so that would have slowed down any issue.

    It did seem that War Weariness was less impactful on my opponent (the first and main one was Shoshone; there was a long grind before I prevailed) than it used to.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

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    The happiness production penalty applying to nonmilitary units has some odd effects. Would it be possible to eliminate the happiness production penalty for settlers, workers, trade units, etc?
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So G mentioned that an "Initial Settlement" happy bonus was possible. Aka a temporary happiness bonus that eventually fades.

    That should take care of the problem, as it gives a civ time to expand, build infrastructure, to stabilize.

    So then the followup question is on OCC/Venice. Has anyone tried a OCC in the new version? If you can stabilize with an OCC, than the temp happy bonus should do the job to fix the problem. If OCC continues to struggle with Global Happiness throughout than we might need to think of something else, but generally I have always find OCC very easy on happiness, I don't see why it wouldn't be the same after the initial setup phase.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    OCC gets a double handicap bonus already in their only city (i.e. capital).

    G
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I think I might go one step further and just have this be the 'handicap.' Have it be the same for all difficulties, and make it so that the handicap fades over time. Remove current perma-handicap value.

    G
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    The simplest solution is giving capitals a little extra bit of happiness. But this won't scale very well.
    Other solution might be counting citizens in capital twice for happiness, although this is pretty obscure.

    But if the problem comes from the difficulty, being under the median is very punishing. A temporary bonus could be a trap.

    So, what about a flat happiness bonus in every city so the first citizen is always happy, no matter what?

    Edit. In other words, iLimit starts at CitySize - 1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  18. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Chieftain

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    Small bug with local lux function, but its very helpful for Spain: if you settle on top of a resource you can't use, you still get the local lux bonus for it. For example I can settle my first settler on Jade and get a +1 happy for doing so.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  20. Dolen

    Dolen Chieftain

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    I know it's beta, but I have to say the new happiness system seemed somewhat awkward and clumsy to me.

    1. "Why acquire a wider variety of luxuries?"

    which was one fun part of the early game for me, and it's gone although there is now local luxury bonus.


    2. Global unhappiness represented in percentage

    This raises "1 unexpected pop increase can ruin your entire game" issue, and another is what people have been discussing, "the Spain problem".


    I want to ask Gazebo, if I may so, what was the reason you changed the happiness system in the first place?
    What was specifically the problems in the previous system that you wished to address?
     
    BiteInTheMark likes this.

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