Let's take the OT Brazil chatter to an off-topic thread, please.
G
G
New Beta Version - March 1st (3-1)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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Legen
Emperor
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I'll keep the rest on a private conversation. Funny how something about why a civ should be cultural or not went into modern politics discussions.
On the beta feedback itself, I've been trying the adjusted beliefs with different civs and loving the commerce, wisdom and mendicancy ones in particular. Notably, Wisdom for Babylon has been a blast, I think it is synergistic enough to make this civ a consistent founder to a similar degree of Carthage with old Commerce.
Carthage definitively feels the loss of the scaling faith from gold on Commerce, and the bonus faith from the trade routes is on the slow side, especially without Petra. Still a consistent founder, I think, just not as comfortable as before.
Mendicancy has been a strong enhancer regardless of the path I want to take for the civ and the religion. Baseline culture and faith are decent on their own, and the faith from gold comes very easily by Medieval. It's actually hard to justify choosing Syncretism over Mendicancy, even as Babylon. I think Syncretism needs adjustments, and I'm still wondering about Mendicancy's potency compared to other enhancers.
Goddess of the Home has been unimpressive so far. It doesn't found fast and the secondary yield, food, isn't as valuable as culture/science/gold that is seen on other pantheons, nor comes in large amounts early on. For actual food, there are better choices, like God of the Sun's +3
food on wheat tiles and Goddess of Renewal with the +2 food on markets.
On the beta feedback itself, I've been trying the adjusted beliefs with different civs and loving the commerce, wisdom and mendicancy ones in particular. Notably, Wisdom for Babylon has been a blast, I think it is synergistic enough to make this civ a consistent founder to a similar degree of Carthage with old Commerce.
Carthage definitively feels the loss of the scaling faith from gold on Commerce, and the bonus faith from the trade routes is on the slow side, especially without Petra. Still a consistent founder, I think, just not as comfortable as before.
Mendicancy has been a strong enhancer regardless of the path I want to take for the civ and the religion. Baseline culture and faith are decent on their own, and the faith from gold comes very easily by Medieval. It's actually hard to justify choosing Syncretism over Mendicancy, even as Babylon. I think Syncretism needs adjustments, and I'm still wondering about Mendicancy's potency compared to other enhancers.
Goddess of the Home has been unimpressive so far. It doesn't found fast and the secondary yield, food, isn't as valuable as culture/science/gold that is seen on other pantheons, nor comes in large amounts early on. For actual food, there are better choices, like God of the Sun's +3
food on wheat tiles and Goddess of Renewal with the +2 food on markets.Emperor Standard Speed on Continents_Tu (Babylon).
SV on Turn 443!
A hell of a game, first time in a long time I saw a warmonger truly take out the world and come breathing on my neck in the late game (I sometimes lose militarily early, but not usually once I "hit the stride"). I won SV as the AI had gotten 4 of the 6 parts, so you know he wasn't far away. You can see some of my notes on the AI's great war play in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-beta-version-march-1st-3-1.655679/page-8#post-15694097
This was a good example of "it ain't over until its over". If you looked at the midgame you would have thought I had a very comfortable lead. I was first place with a dominant tech advantage, and a small policy advantage, a ton of wonders, and pretty good strategic resources. But Shaka kept conquering one city after another, and went from a threat across the ocean to a juggarnaut on my front door step. Really well played by the AI, I honestly didn't know who was going to take it until the very last turn.
My notes:
1) I am liking the early warrior. It makes exploration more interesting, and it does the job of helping when I get the barb swarm. That said, its not a "kill all barbs" advantage, I still have had games where I was pressured by barbs, and the sneaky SOBs still manage to get to my capital sometimes. Further, while I agree with some that killing random barbs is easier...I am actually finding the barb camps a bit tougher. A warrior garrison can hold against my one warrior + 1 pathfinder....and once it becomes a spear its quite difficult to take without a lot of troops or archer weardown. All in all, pretty happy with the dynamic.
2) I have tried various archer rushes and I think the rush is pretty solidly dead. The spear rush though is still viable in a lot of cases, but that is more acceptable to me since you are really committing to a more warfare tech.
3) The forest on mining is nice, sometimes I will take a swing down there if I have forested resources, but it doesn't feel too onerous. Honestly the +50% chop on bronze working means nothign to me, it has not changed the calculus I use to decide when to go bronze working.
4) City Wise. Base city CS is fine, it does hold a little better than before, but you still really need a garrison to hold a city, which I think is proper. Base walled cities look right and do good damage. Sometimes though these tradition civs get this crazy 20 CS capital that shoots like a crossbowman...and it seems nigh unassailable. Castles also feel decent. Past that point, arsenals and military bases need a major CS upgrade to be worthwhile. City CS becomes laughable by the time I'm getting corsairs on the board, and my island cities fall like kindling to a navy force no matter how many of the CS buildings I build. In fact, the unit garrison CS is so dominant compared to these buildings, that it seems like the CS increase for them is almost nonexistent.
5) Got to try out Earth Mother. I wasn't able to found with it this game, but the bonus isn't too bad, as its one of the few pantheons that give culture, and that combined with the extra production was nice.
6) I feel like early wonder timings on Emperor are reasonable, I am not seeing any wonder times that I could not match if I had committed. However, I am also seeing crazy fast pantheon founds, and its not 1 or 2 civs, its almost all of them. If they are not getting faith bonuses from their handicap, the only thing I can imagine if that they are rushing buying and completing the shrine on turn 1 with their founding bonus. Also, the AI remains very aggressive with its expansion...but most of the spots I have seen them take I have agreed with. Every so often there is a spot I raise my eyebrow at, but in general they aren't just settling cities just to make cities.
7) I give kudos to the AI logic improvement on citadels. They are using them often, and its deliciously annoying. Most of the spots are good and strategic, either snagging a key resource, or in a nice fortified position. Very impressed.
8) I honestly don't know how to engage the AI in naval warfare anymore (Corvettes and beyond). I feel like everytime I come out of my base to do any kind of engagement....I am always getting crushed. I am killing more than I lose....but ships are expesive, and humans just can't lose units that way. I think part of the issue I am having is thats its easy to get ship speeds faster than ship sight range (even with a navigation II scout). So what's happening is I move in, see a fleet that I can take....I engage it....and suddenly I get sidewiped by an entire new force I couldn't see.
I also have trouble doing land bombardment without losing ships. The AI can do it because it doesn't mind throwing away units, but I feel that when I'm bringing ranged ships to bear I'm always losing some.
9) On interception. First of all, big kudos to the AI, they are really using interception coverage well. I am seeing a good mix of fighters with bombers, and nearly every seaship has a nearby destroyer for protection. I was really struggling to find open spots to hit things due to the AI's strong interception coverage.
Damage wise, I like where its at. My bombers are often taking 60-70 damage...and not dealing any. That is too much for me to just lob bombers at targets, which is exactly where I wanted it to get.
On the new Air Sweep...the only damage that felt reasonable was the jet fighter with dog fighting 3 on. Before that the damage was so piddily it wasn't worth it. Most cities are going to have ready access to hospitals and medics by this point, planes heal fast. Personally I think I would rather see it as static damage (similar to splash damage), and then have the dog fighting promotions add to the static damage.
Promotion wise, I feel that fighters have a lot of conflicting promotions. I have +33% more CS on interception or air sweeps vs 100% more damage to fighters vs +33% more vs air fighters. There just feels like a lot of promotions that are all kind of doing the same thing.
10) GDRs are quite potent now, and they are coming at a time that in some of my games I am finding use for them. Since we have done some name changes recently, I would love to change their name to "Jaegar" (its from the badass giant robot movie Pacific Rim). Modern Armor is also very useful in these late stages. I do think helicopters still need more buffing (more RCS AND more speed)….they have several hard counters and the light tank is still doing more damage in the open terrain.
Bazookas I also think could use a slight buff, I still struggle to find reason to upgrade my machine guns to them.
11) I feel like the Scientist and Writer nerfs were notable. The fact that it took me to Turn 443 instead of the sub 400 victories I've gotten lately is a good example of the time increase (not completely, the fact I lost some cities was also a factor).
12) AI remains exceptionally passive in the early game. I only build units for barbs, no one will declare on me until Renaissance.
13) One more shoutout to the Communitas_TU map, its quickly becoming my favorite. It has such wonderfully complex island chains....I finally have gotten both the Continents and Terra experience combined. I get the engagement of continents combined with the cool exploration factor of Terra maps. It also makes fishing a more attractive tech to get early, you often will find a great piece of land just a few water tiles away from your mainland.
SV on Turn 443!
A hell of a game, first time in a long time I saw a warmonger truly take out the world and come breathing on my neck in the late game (I sometimes lose militarily early, but not usually once I "hit the stride"). I won SV as the AI had gotten 4 of the 6 parts, so you know he wasn't far away. You can see some of my notes on the AI's great war play in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-beta-version-march-1st-3-1.655679/page-8#post-15694097
This was a good example of "it ain't over until its over". If you looked at the midgame you would have thought I had a very comfortable lead. I was first place with a dominant tech advantage, and a small policy advantage, a ton of wonders, and pretty good strategic resources. But Shaka kept conquering one city after another, and went from a threat across the ocean to a juggarnaut on my front door step. Really well played by the AI, I honestly didn't know who was going to take it until the very last turn.
My notes:
1) I am liking the early warrior. It makes exploration more interesting, and it does the job of helping when I get the barb swarm. That said, its not a "kill all barbs" advantage, I still have had games where I was pressured by barbs, and the sneaky SOBs still manage to get to my capital sometimes. Further, while I agree with some that killing random barbs is easier...I am actually finding the barb camps a bit tougher. A warrior garrison can hold against my one warrior + 1 pathfinder....and once it becomes a spear its quite difficult to take without a lot of troops or archer weardown. All in all, pretty happy with the dynamic.
2) I have tried various archer rushes and I think the rush is pretty solidly dead. The spear rush though is still viable in a lot of cases, but that is more acceptable to me since you are really committing to a more warfare tech.
3) The forest on mining is nice, sometimes I will take a swing down there if I have forested resources, but it doesn't feel too onerous. Honestly the +50% chop on bronze working means nothign to me, it has not changed the calculus I use to decide when to go bronze working.
4) City Wise. Base city CS is fine, it does hold a little better than before, but you still really need a garrison to hold a city, which I think is proper. Base walled cities look right and do good damage. Sometimes though these tradition civs get this crazy 20 CS capital that shoots like a crossbowman...and it seems nigh unassailable. Castles also feel decent. Past that point, arsenals and military bases need a major CS upgrade to be worthwhile. City CS becomes laughable by the time I'm getting corsairs on the board, and my island cities fall like kindling to a navy force no matter how many of the CS buildings I build. In fact, the unit garrison CS is so dominant compared to these buildings, that it seems like the CS increase for them is almost nonexistent.
5) Got to try out Earth Mother. I wasn't able to found with it this game, but the bonus isn't too bad, as its one of the few pantheons that give culture, and that combined with the extra production was nice.
6) I feel like early wonder timings on Emperor are reasonable, I am not seeing any wonder times that I could not match if I had committed. However, I am also seeing crazy fast pantheon founds, and its not 1 or 2 civs, its almost all of them. If they are not getting faith bonuses from their handicap, the only thing I can imagine if that they are rushing buying and completing the shrine on turn 1 with their founding bonus. Also, the AI remains very aggressive with its expansion...but most of the spots I have seen them take I have agreed with. Every so often there is a spot I raise my eyebrow at, but in general they aren't just settling cities just to make cities.
7) I give kudos to the AI logic improvement on citadels. They are using them often, and its deliciously annoying. Most of the spots are good and strategic, either snagging a key resource, or in a nice fortified position. Very impressed.
8) I honestly don't know how to engage the AI in naval warfare anymore (Corvettes and beyond). I feel like everytime I come out of my base to do any kind of engagement....I am always getting crushed. I am killing more than I lose....but ships are expesive, and humans just can't lose units that way. I think part of the issue I am having is thats its easy to get ship speeds faster than ship sight range (even with a navigation II scout). So what's happening is I move in, see a fleet that I can take....I engage it....and suddenly I get sidewiped by an entire new force I couldn't see.
I also have trouble doing land bombardment without losing ships. The AI can do it because it doesn't mind throwing away units, but I feel that when I'm bringing ranged ships to bear I'm always losing some.
9) On interception. First of all, big kudos to the AI, they are really using interception coverage well. I am seeing a good mix of fighters with bombers, and nearly every seaship has a nearby destroyer for protection. I was really struggling to find open spots to hit things due to the AI's strong interception coverage.
Damage wise, I like where its at. My bombers are often taking 60-70 damage...and not dealing any. That is too much for me to just lob bombers at targets, which is exactly where I wanted it to get.
On the new Air Sweep...the only damage that felt reasonable was the jet fighter with dog fighting 3 on. Before that the damage was so piddily it wasn't worth it. Most cities are going to have ready access to hospitals and medics by this point, planes heal fast. Personally I think I would rather see it as static damage (similar to splash damage), and then have the dog fighting promotions add to the static damage.
Promotion wise, I feel that fighters have a lot of conflicting promotions. I have +33% more CS on interception or air sweeps vs 100% more damage to fighters vs +33% more vs air fighters. There just feels like a lot of promotions that are all kind of doing the same thing.
10) GDRs are quite potent now, and they are coming at a time that in some of my games I am finding use for them. Since we have done some name changes recently, I would love to change their name to "Jaegar" (its from the badass giant robot movie Pacific Rim). Modern Armor is also very useful in these late stages. I do think helicopters still need more buffing (more RCS AND more speed)….they have several hard counters and the light tank is still doing more damage in the open terrain.
Bazookas I also think could use a slight buff, I still struggle to find reason to upgrade my machine guns to them.
11) I feel like the Scientist and Writer nerfs were notable. The fact that it took me to Turn 443 instead of the sub 400 victories I've gotten lately is a good example of the time increase (not completely, the fact I lost some cities was also a factor).
12) AI remains exceptionally passive in the early game. I only build units for barbs, no one will declare on me until Renaissance.
13) One more shoutout to the Communitas_TU map, its quickly becoming my favorite. It has such wonderfully complex island chains....I finally have gotten both the Continents and Terra experience combined. I get the engagement of continents combined with the cool exploration factor of Terra maps. It also makes fishing a more attractive tech to get early, you often will find a great piece of land just a few water tiles away from your mainland.
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FWIW, Dido founded first in my emperor game using Home; I was able to snag the last religion with Earth mother + my copper.Goddess of the Home has been unimpressive so far. It doesn't found fast and the secondary yield, food, isn't as valuable as culture/science/gold that is seen on other pantheons, nor comes in large amounts early on. For actual food, there are better choices, like God of the Sun's +3
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,500
To be honest, Dido is one of the best to found with it. She can rush buy every shrine and will have leftover gold to invest on a few more buildings.
I didn't test Home with Carthage, do you know if the pantheon can proc from the free lighthouse?
I know, that's why I specifically mentioned it was her. Regardless of any concerns about the pantheons ability, it was nice to see the AI able to execute on this synergy.
Good question for the lighthouse, but I don't know yet either.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
God of open Sky is broken.
In my current game, Russia founded first with this pantheon, even it has only 3 pastures online.
Sorry, but I have no understanding, why a completly balanced pantheon was lifted to such a level. The pasture is a very basic improvement, unlocked at first tech tier and you gain 4 yields through your pantheon, not to forget the quaranteed culture for working flat tiles you will do anyway. Please undone the change and make it normal again.
In my current game, Russia founded first with this pantheon, even it has only 3 pastures online.
Sorry, but I have no understanding, why a completly balanced pantheon was lifted to such a level. The pasture is a very basic improvement, unlocked at first tech tier and you gain 4 yields through your pantheon, not to forget the quaranteed culture for working flat tiles you will do anyway. Please undone the change and make it normal again.
Not stalker, but I'll put my thought.
By medieval its about right, but you can consistently make it to like turn 120 without war without building a single military unit.
I concur, I'm seeing reasonable warring by medieval but not before.
Okay, I've sent a pull request tweaking some numbers to raise AI aggression, particularly in the early game (Ancient to Medieval) and when players have weak militaries. Should be included in the next version (or hotfix if they identify the CTD).
General_Drax
Warlord
Keep in mind that early game war outside an Authority playthrough are almost pointless. You can snipe an AI worker but cities are very powerful and resilient now. Beside you cannot annex so it's either razing or puppet. Trying to assault a Tradition capital before trebuchets or even cannons is a daunting quest.
If AIs tend to attack a fortified human player will give only XP for his units.
In my current playthrough we are in late Renaissance and we fought some Medieval wars: aside troops skirmishing only 1 CS fell. We are all Tradition/Progress civs but Rome that went Authority but without warring Augustus is lagging behind Tech and Culture wise and now he is showing up on my borders with Pikemen and Legions vs Tercios and crossbowmen.
If AIs tend to attack a fortified human player will give only XP for his units.
In my current playthrough we are in late Renaissance and we fought some Medieval wars: aside troops skirmishing only 1 CS fell. We are all Tradition/Progress civs but Rome that went Authority but without warring Augustus is lagging behind Tech and Culture wise and now he is showing up on my borders with Pikemen and Legions vs Tercios and crossbowmen.
Early game war is hard even if you go for early catapults and drill I,II melee units? I would think you could take cities if you really want to. I'm peaceful in my current 3/1 game so haven't tried.
tu_79
Deity
Hey, @Stalker0, thanks for the advertising.
The correct name for the map is Communitu_79a, since it is Communitas tweaked by me and @azum4roll.
Glad you like it!
The correct name for the map is Communitu_79a, since it is Communitas tweaked by me and @azum4roll.
Glad you like it!
Just had first CTD. Auto-Save game (just before CTD) attached. I attacked the barb SW of Prague with my Spearman.
EDIT: I noticed my drive space was getting low, so I deleted a bunch of games I don't play anymore (Civ 6; Beyond Earth etc.), restarted, and I'm fine now. So maybe my computer, and not the Beta.
EDIT: I noticed my drive space was getting low, so I deleted a bunch of games I don't play anymore (Civ 6; Beyond Earth etc.), restarted, and I'm fine now. So maybe my computer, and not the Beta.
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There's something minor I'll mention again after being disappointed, but can we please have an influence bump for landmarks excavated for CS? Archeologists are almost 500 hammers, yet the only benefit is the +3 happiness due to the "large one-time influence boost" amounting to a whopping 50 (a trivial amount for that point in the game). The incentive is too small; there's no reason to not take the artifact 100% of the time. Although the +happy is nice - though often inconsequential for tall civs - the influence would probably have to be doubled, at the least, before I would probably even consider it.
Remos
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 5, 2019
- Messages
- 33
Ugh, I get crash to desktop with this version between turns 60 and 80, on every game I've started. Clean installation with no other mods present. Cleared cache, tried to reinstall and verify files, still get ctd. I've included a save file that crashes on the next turn, turn 81, no matter what I do.
amateurgamer88
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2018
- Messages
- 1,612
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