New Civ: Dorian Greece

[Sideral]

Hmmm... It seems strange that he and his army would fight their own blood...
I still think that Mecedonians did not feel so related to the Illyrians.
But he did fight his brothers in Greece, didn't he?
Should this mean that Illyrians, Macedonians and the Greek city-states were all cousins who just acted like selfish children and wanted to rule the world?

 

[Sideral]

Don't forget the Greeks called the inhabitants of Epirus "barbarians," aka non-Greek. Why? Because they were Illyrians

...and just some things I have found on Epirus (they state that it was different from Illyria, but it has some facts on the Dorians as well):

Epirus

History

Early settlement
Epirus has been occupied since Neolithic times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli to bury their leaders. The tumuli had many similar characteristics to those later used by the Myceneans, suggesting a possible ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilisation. Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found at two ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.

The Dorians invaded Greece via Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (circa 1100 BC-1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes had emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaones of northwestern Epirus, the Molossians in the centre and the Thesprotians in the middle.


Epirus and ancient Greece

Remains of the sanctuary of Zeus Dodonaios in DodonaUnlike most other Greeks of the time, who lived in or around city-states such as Athens or Sparta, the Epirotes lived in small villages. Their region lay on the edge of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuries, it remained a frontier area contested with the Illyrian peoples of the Adriatic coast and interior. However, Epirus had a far greater religious significance than might have been expected given its geographical remoteness, due to the presence of the shrine and oracle at Dodona - regarded as second only to the more famous oracle at Delphi.

The Epirotes seem to have initially been regarded with some disdain by the Greeks of the south. The 5th century BC historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians" and the only Epirotes regarded as truly Greek were the Aeacidae, who claimed to be descended from Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. Plutarch mentions an interesting cultural element of the Epirotes regarding Achilles. In his biography of king Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (Pyrrhus, 1, 3-4). The Aeacidae established the Molossian dynasty, who built a state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Molossians allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias, niece of Arybbas of Epirus, married King Philip II of Macedon. She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great.

On the death of Arybbas, Alexander of Epirus succeeded to the throne and the title King of Epirus. Aeacides of Epirus, who succeeded Alexander, espoused the cause of Olympias against Cassander, but was dethroned in 313 BC. His son Pyrrhus came to throne in 295 BC, and for six years fought against the Romans in southern Italy and Sicily. His campaigns gave Epirus a new, but brief, importance and a lasting contribution to the language with the concept of a "Pyrrhic victory".

In the 3rd century BC Epirus remained a substantial power, unified under the auspices of the Epirote League as a federal state with its own parliament (or synedrion). However, it was faced with the growing threat of the expansionist Roman Republic, which fought a series of wars with Macedonia. The League remained neutral in the first two Macedonian Wars but split in the Third Macedonian War (171 BC-168 BC), with the Molossians siding with the Macedonians and the Chaones and Thesproti siding with Rome. The outcome was disastrous for Epirus; Molossia fell to Rome in 167 BC, 150,000 of its inhabitants were enslaved and the region was so thoroughly plundered that it took 500 years for central Epirus to recover fully".

 

[Shqype]

Hmmm... It seems strange that he and his army would fight their own blood...
I still think that Mecedonians did not feel so related to the Illyrians.
But he did fight his brothers in Greece, didn't he?
Should this mean that Illyrians, Macedonians and the Greek city-states were all cousins who just acted like selfish children and wanted to rule the world?

Illyrians were tribes that competed with each other and fought each other on a regular basis.

Almost all people with power act life selfish children when they want to rule the world

 

[Aranor]

Sparta, although often synonymous to the Dorian culture, was not founded by Dorians but was invaded by them and was ruled by them (they formed the higher caste).

For this reason they have been included in this mod. While I am well aware that Sparta was not founded by the Dorians (how could it have been when Sparta joined Mycenae in going to war with Troy some 100 or so years before the Dorians invaded??) But as you point out the Dorians did for the higher caste and much of their culture ( militarily speaking, much better examples of Dorian architecture and drama can be found in Corinth) was used in everyday life. I think it was always going to be a contentious choice adding Sparta as they have a history more of their own than that of Dorian decent, but the fact is that they were Dorian, partly atleast.

 

[Shqype]

Sideral, because I don't want to turn my friend's thread into a debate, I will post some alternate information that you can reveal by clicking the button. If there are any other questions you have, you can continue through PMs

Spoiler :

ILLYRI-HELLENIC TRIBES

The Greeks were known to have Hellenized (adapt to Greek culture) many peoples in and around the region of Greece like the Illyrians and the Macedonians who some believe have Thracian or even Illyrian roots.

In the extreme south of Illyria (Epirus) laid several Hellenized Illyrian tribes such as the Chaoni and Molossi.

The assimilation of these Illyrians into Greek culture is attributed to the control the Greeks had over the island of Corcyra (todays Corfu off the coast of southern Albania), which Epirus (once southern Albania and western Greece) stood in the way of and so, controlling Epirus became a necessity for the Greeks.

In the Vlore/Tepelene region of southern Albania once dwelled the Chaoni or Chaones, as they were also known.

The Roman historian, Appian, mentions Chaonia, land of the Chaones, as the southern border in his description and geography of Illyria.

The Chaones were regarded as a people who knew little about cultivation and ate uncooked foods.

The most powerful and influential Illyri-Hellenic tribes were the
Molossi who once dwelled in the border region of Albania and Greece.

The Molossi were a dynastic tribe who were very much in control of Epirus. They would be both friend and foe to the northern Illyrians and, at times, controlled southern Illyria as far north as the river Shkumb in central Albania.

http://theillyrians.homestead.com/tribes.html

Achaeans versus Illyrian Dorians


Greeks were not the first perpetrators to design a device that could eventuate in stealing historical events and twist the accounts of other people. Among the most despicable acts of theft has been the masterminded plan to plagiarize the Iliad. What would be considered a translation in modern times, was permissible rendering of Illyrian mythological elements into Greek official ideology. The custom of depriving subjugated people of their own gods was practiced from the dawn of civilizations. The invaders would often adopt the gods of the conquered slaves in order to break their spirit and erase their memories. Yet no other invaders apart from Greeks has ever stolen the whole mythology of another people. Not only Greeks stole the Iliad from Illyria but they even changed their own name from Greek into Helens 'people of the sun'. Why did Greeks escape unnoticed for their transgression? The Roman invasion of Illyria the distraction of Illyrian royal records and libraries made the Greek theft invisible. Unable to deal with the rising power of Illyria, weakened Greek city states invited Rome to destroy their annoying Illyrians and only after the fall of the culturally superior neighbors did Greeks change the name into Helens. The acceptance of the name Helen was not an indiscriminate act of surrender before the falsification of history. The very seeds of Greek civilization did not share the same genetic make up. The so-called Dark Ages of Greece, the pouring of Dorian tribes in Peloponnesus was actually an act of retribution for the distraction of Troy. Hence Achaeans finally paid a heavy price for destroying the Illyrian colonies in Asia Minor. The creation of Homeric songs and their impact on Greek psyche corresponded to the destruction of Mycenaean civilization in Greece by Dorian tribes. But were Dorian people Greek by descent? The names of Dorian chieftains show that their origin was actually northern Illyrian where they rushed forth towards Greece. Among Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and the Dymanes, the name of Hylleis (alb. hyllus 'star, sun') is not Greek at all while Dymanes is typically Illyrian, similar to Dymalus : 'two mountains'. Illyrian dynasties used to add the numbers dy- 'two', tri- 'three' in front of their names to symbolize the unique royal line of succession. The method of naming the leaders according to the royal parentage was typical of ancient monarchies. Because Greek people were actually a mixture of invading Achaeans and liberating Dorians the name Helen was considered to be a restoration of 'people of the sun' in their native land. Despite of common Indo European origin Achaean and Dorian were two different cultures. Not only language was different but even the architecture and burial customs were not the same. In the list of Hellenic tribes and cities, Illyrian names can be detected easily.

Here you will find information about Illyrian tribes, especially the hellenized tribes that lived in and around the region known as Epirus.

 

[Aranor]

h3h3h3h3 it doesnt thanks Shqype, but it truely doesnt worry me, so long as its debate about the Dorians and not about the Illyrians I'm not fussed

 

[Sideral]

Sideral, because I don't want to turn my friend's thread into a debate, I will post some alternate information that you can reveal by clicking the button. If there are any other questions you have, you can continue through PMs

I will read carefully your sources. I have to tell you that by a first reading they seemed a little biased (compared to international sources, not Greek ones).
I will try to open a thread in the History Discussion Forum (e.g. Balkan countries).

We should not mess people's mods with geo-political talks.

 

[Kjaran]

Yea, the Greeks had alot of influence during this time period. Which is sad because there are many other culture that just get eclipsed by them, ie the Macedonian culture before it Helenisation.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Macedons=Makednoi=Tall guys, much like the Dorians, Ionians, Aioleis, Magnites were ALL greeks.

Thrace, and thracians were not greeks. But those were the only who were "greekified" for lack of a better term.

If you link present day, Macedonia with ancient one, you make a great big bad mistake. Besides, if you look at any greek map, you will see that there is a territory with thessaloniki as its capital that is called MAKEDONIA. This is the real deal, don't go for the fake and ugly immitations.

Do take some time to research. "Macedons" of today are slav descendands of those who settled on that area on 600 AD. That is the tired old truth, however dull it may sound. SO THEY HAVE NO RELATION WHATSOEVER WITH ....ALEXANDER THE (He lived and died 900 years prior to them)

Illyrians however, now that is a great civ if I ever saw one. There were around back then and they still are around, under the name of Albanians. Those who deny that claim are also those who claim greeks of today have nothing to do with the greeks of yore. As for the fact that many names sound the same, so they should, as Illyrians as well as Greeks were all Indoeuropeans. A lot of words sound the same, as the case may be.

Thank you for your magnificent civ, and hopefully I may have illuminated some known facts.

 

[Aranor]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Macedons=Makednoi=Tall guys, much like the Dorians, Ionians, Aioleis, Magnites were ALL greeks.

Thrace, and thracians were not greeks. But those were the only who were "greekified" for lack of a better term.

If you link present day, Macedonia with ancient one, you make a great big bad mistake. Besides, if you look at any greek map, you will see that there is a territory with thessaloniki as its capital that is called MAKEDONIA. This is the real deal, don't go for the fake and ugly immitations.

Do take some time to research. "Macedons" of today are slav descendands of those who settled on that area on 600 AD. That is the tired old truth, however dull it may sound. SO THEY HAVE NO RELATION WHATSOEVER WITH ....ALEXANDER THE (He lived and died 900 years prior to them)

Illyrians however, now that is a great civ if I ever saw one. There were around back then and they still are around, under the name of Albanians. Those who deny that claim are also those who claim greeks of today have nothing to do with the greeks of yore. As for the fact that many names sound the same, so they should, as Illyrians as well as Greeks were all Indoeuropeans. A lot of words sound the same, as the case may be.

Thank you for your magnificent civ, and hopefully I may have illuminated some known facts.

I am very much so well aware of this, as Shqype can tell you I probably drove him nuts with all of the questions I asked in trying to sus out whre the Dorians might have come from, ie: Illyria or the Makednoi I have had to study no less that 300 odd differnt texts this is why I have been working on it for 3 months I was trying to make it as historically accurate as possible. Not sure how well I have done but I like to play as them and crush the annoying little ant Alexander beneeth my boot heel with my Spartan Hoplites!!

In answer to your original statement yea the Macedonians were a poor example. If at the time I had been able to come up with a better one I would have

 

[Archduke Otto]

Hey Aranor...

Whomever the Dorians were descendants of, I like the civ. It's a great one. Just fantastic.

Cheers.

 

[Aranor]

thanks Archduke Otto! I aimed to please!

 

[Shqype]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Macedons=Makednoi=Tall guys, much like the Dorians, Ionians, Aioleis, Magnites were ALL greeks.

Thrace, and thracians were not greeks. But those were the only who were "greekified" for lack of a better term.

If you link present day, Macedonia with ancient one, you make a great big bad mistake. Besides, if you look at any greek map, you will see that there is a territory with thessaloniki as its capital that is called MAKEDONIA. This is the real deal, don't go for the fake and ugly immitations.

Do take some time to research. "Macedons" of today are slav descendands of those who settled on that area on 600 AD. That is the tired old truth, however dull it may sound. SO THEY HAVE NO RELATION WHATSOEVER WITH ....ALEXANDER THE (He lived and died 900 years prior to them)

Illyrians however, now that is a great civ if I ever saw one. There were around back then and they still are around, under the name of Albanians. Those who deny that claim are also those who claim greeks of today have nothing to do with the greeks of yore. As for the fact that many names sound the same, so they should, as Illyrians as well as Greeks were all Indoeuropeans. A lot of words sound the same, as the case may be.

Thank you for your magnificent civ, and hopefully I may have illuminated some known facts.

Now this guy knows what he's talking about!

 

[Ephor]

On the mod: Awesome! The Greeks in all civ-style games here to fore have been a mish-mash of Athenian and Macedonian traditions (usually with some sciencey philosopher bonus and macedonian cavalry), it's great to see another side of the greek civilization.

However: 2 UUs? Having each UU tied to one of the leaders would be more balanced and make more sense, but I know that would be tricky. I'd rather the mod be broken down further into Spartan and Dorian Greece, to preserve the balance and originality of the different Greek tribes.

 

[Aranor]

On the mod: Awesome! The Greeks in all civ-style games here to fore have been a mish-mash of Athenian and Macedonian traditions (usually with some sciencey philosopher bonus and macedonian cavalry), it's great to see another side of the greek civilization.

However: 2 UUs? Having each UU tied to one of the leaders would be more balanced and make more sense, but I know that would be tricky. I'd rather the mod be broken down further into Spartan and Dorian Greece, to preserve the balance and originality of the different Greek tribes.

Glad you like the civ Ephor! The reason why I gave them 2 UUs on the whole was because I was aiming to show the 3 sides of Dorian Lore, the first being their invasion ( Doric Swordsman and the city list ), the Dorians of Myth( ie Aigimios, he is a mythic leader or Dorian culture), and thridly the dorians after the settled in Greece ( ie the Spartans, I chose them as I think they showed a great deal of the Dorian culture militarily speaking, but I could have just as easily chosen the Corinthians whose architectural style was very Dorian influenced ) So while I could tie the 2 UU's to leaders I think it also requires python to do, and I cant read python to save myself

 

[Tigranes II]

Thucydides' "Peloponnesian Wars" tells how many contemporaries of those wars saw the conflict between Sparta and Athens as expression of the ancient enmity of Ionians (e.g., Athens) and Dorians (e.g., Sparta). I actually wrote a paper on a Syracusan speech asking the Camarinans' help by reminding them of their shared Doric heritage. So, the Dorian/Ionian divide was alive and well for several centuries after the Doric invasion.

That invasion, actually, was a movement of several Indo-European peoples, probably with some relation, from the Balkans into Greece and Anatolia. These include not only the Dorians, but also Thracians, Phrygians, Armenians, and the "sea peoples" who invaded Egypt, thence becoming the Philistines of biblical notoriety. Comparative linguists often disagree on who was related to whom, speaking at different times of a Thraco-Illyrian group, a Thraco-Phrygian group, and a Phrygian-Armenian group. Whatever the true relations were, the modern Albanian, Greek, and Armenian are the only descendants of any Indo-Europeans who may have been a part of that ancient Balkan people.

The myceneans greeks themselves were most probably from the Balkans, having invaded greece around 2000-1750 BC, ending up crushing the Minoans, who were not an IE (Indo-european) people, around 1450. There is archaeological evidence of skeletons that belonged to an IE type of build replacing those of an earlier, more slender build of Mediterranean origin. I seem to have forgotten the specific terms, something like "brachycephalic" or "dorsocephalic". Anyways, there is reasonable evidence to link the Dorians with either Greek-speakers who stayed behind in the Balkans after the Mycenaeans left, or a Balkan people related to the Illyrians or Thracians

 

[Tigranes II]

Oh, BTW did you consider putting Magna Graecian or Sicilian cities colonized by Dorians in your civ, such as Syracusa, Taras (Tarentum), Gela, or Megara Hyblaia?

And then there are mainland (Peloponnesian) cities like Megara, Korinthos, Elis, and Argos that were important. However, I think the cities you picked were all good choices, several of which I wouldn't have thought of.

Sorry I can't see the civ in all its glory. I didn't take CivIV to college, as it would spell the end of my academic career. This summer I will be making up for lost time by playing at work...

 

[Aranor]

Oh, BTW did you consider putting Magna Graecian or Sicilian cities colonized by Dorians in your civ, such as Syracusa, Taras (Tarentum), Gela, or Megara Hyblaia?

And then there are mainland (Peloponnesian) cities like Megara, Korinthos, Elis, and Argos that were important. However, I think the cities you picked were all good choices, several of which I wouldn't have thought of.

Sorry I can't see the civ in all its glory. I didn't take CivIV to college, as it would spell the end of my academic career. This summer I will be making up for lost time by playing at work...

As for you first post I read a similar article in my reasearch and I think I gave a very breif mention of it in an earlier post.

I did consider using Dorian settlements that were away from the Greek mainland, infact in the end I only ended up using one for Crete, the reason why I didnt use them is that I was aiming to show them in the period just prior to the Greek "Dark Age" and as they were coming out of it, where they would not have settled as widely as they had by the time the Peleponnesian Wars broke out. As for the city names I avoided using names that appear in the vanilla civ so as to make them too similar so I had to think outside the box and find cities that may not have been as influential as say Korinthos, or Megara. The only exception to this rule was Sparta and the only reason why i have included it is because Leonidas was king of Sparta and it would not have made sense to have him but no Spartans

 

[Aranor]

However I am bound to be pointed out as wrong in this assumption so please be gentle!

 

[Shqype]

Tigranes II, I applaud your knowledge of the ancient peoples and feel that I can learn alot from you. Hopefully you can teach me what you have learned

 

[Mesix]

I have read that Illyrians, Macedonians and Thracians are considered to be different nations.
Alexander’s parents were Phillip the II from Macedon and Olympias from Epirus. Phillip and Alexander have fought and finally conquered the Illyrians and the Thracians.

Olympias was born with the name Myrtale. Phillip II ruled a loose unity of tribes from a capitol in Pella. To assign the modern concept of a nation to ancient people is inacurate at best. In the era that we are talking about, Greece had city-states that were all separate from one another. North of Greece there were several tribes whos only real unifying characteristic from a Greek standpoint is that they were not Greek.

Before Phillip II, Macedonia was not unified in any sense of the word. The lowlands and the highlands had several tribes who often warred on each other. Some historians have likened ancient Macedonia to Scottland in the Middle Ages.

In his celebrated biography of Alexander, Peter Green describes Phillip as ""...an overlord among equals. The wanax maintaining a precarious authority over his turbulent barons."