Mesix said:
And know the little I do about the Illyrians and that they did share a "border" if I can use the term loosely, with the Makedonians and the Thracians, most specifically the Dardanoi and the Triballi (sp?) ( who both were known to be incredibly aggressive towards their neighbors it can be assumed that if the Dorians were Illyrian that they could have most likely come from an Illyrian tribe with contact with one or all of these neighbors. Or even forced out of their homeland but one or all of these as some historical writings suggest.
The Illyrians joined Alexander on his conquest of the world and made up a significant portion of his army. Both of his parents had Illyrian blood.
Sir Alan Woodthorpe, who wrote the most definitive book on Alexander the Great, even states this in the opening paragraph of his book.
Don't forget the Greeks called the inhabitants of Epirus "barbarians," aka non-Greek. Why? Because they were Illyrians
Thats an interesting quote you found there. I have also been thinking on this subject quite alot recently, since I was updating the civ
Even though physical anthropology is controversial science by modern standards however it would proof to be highly useful when creating characters. In regards to Illyrians as Dorians I have a rather unique link which would, in my opinion, help the clarification of the physical traits of Dorians;
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p39.htm
Ignore fig nr 1=Serb-Slavic (No racial connection with Dorians or Illyrians)
Focuse on this 2 Dinarics;
FIG. 3 (2 views). An exaggeratedly tall, lean, and long-faced Dinaric from Klementi,
the northernmost bairak of the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë. Northern Albania is probably
the most highly Dinaricized country in Europe.
FIG. 4 (2 views). A blond Gheg (northen Albanian)from Zadrima; a classic Noric.
The large one is a classic case of illyrian Dinaric while the second one is/would seem to correspondent with the blond Dorian type.
I think you missunderstand, no one here is positioning that the Illyrians WERE Dorian we are simply hypothisising possibilities. While I dont doubt Shqypes claims of Illyrian/Dorian history ( he always throughly researches his information) I also have leanings towards the fact that they could have been Thracian. Dardanoi to be most specific, or even possibly Triballoi, history does tell us that their original homeland was further west than it was during the Rise of the Romans, they were forced out of their homeland when the Celts migrated to their lands and forced them from their homeland. The Triballoi were considered vicious even by other Thracians, so it is easy to assume that they could have been the Dorians as well. The simple fact of the matter is we dont have a clear picture and probably never will, not unless someone invents a time machine
Andersi, I like you.Even though physical anthropology is controversial science by modern standards however it would proof to be highly useful when creating characters. In regards to Illyrians as Dorians I have a rather unique link which would, in my opinion, help the clarification of the physical traits of Dorians;
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p39.htm
Ignore fig nr 1=Serb-Slavic (No racial connection with Dorians or Illyrians)
Focuse on this 2 Dinarics;
FIG. 3 (2 views). An exaggeratedly tall, lean, and long-faced Dinaric from Klementi,
the northernmost bairak of the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë. Northern Albania is probably
the most highly Dinaricized country in Europe.
FIG. 4 (2 views). A blond Gheg (northen Albanian)from Zadrima; a classic Noric.
The large one is a classic case of illyrian Dinaric while the second one is/would seem to correspondent with the blond Dorian type.
The Dardani and even the Triballi were both Illyrian tribes that may have "mingled" with the Thracians. The Dardani moreso were Illyrians that mingled with Thracians while the Triballi were more of an Illyro-Thracian mix.I think you missunderstand, no one here is positioning that the Illyrians WERE Dorian we are simply hypothisising possibilities. While I dont doubt Shqypes claims of Illyrian/Dorian history ( he always throughly researches his information) I also have leanings towards the fact that they could have been Thracian. Dardanoi to be most specific, or even possibly Triballoi, history does tell us that their original homeland was further west than it was during the Rise of the Romans, they were forced out of their homeland when the Celts migrated to their lands and forced them from their homeland. The Triballoi were considered vicious even by other Thracians, so it is easy to assume that they could have been the Dorians as well. The simple fact of the matter is we dont have a clear picture and probably never will, not unless someone invents a time machine
) in what I'm guessing was Illyrian territory until the Autariatai forced them from their homelands. This could have also happened before , because as you state and I whole heartedly agree both the Illyrians and Thracians were incredibly aggressive, both towards eachother and towards outsiders.
Perhaps it's because the Spartans (and Thebans) were both descendants of the Dorian Hordes that overran Mycenae (while Athenians were descendants of the surviving Mycenaeans I believe)?For starters, the Dorians overran the Mycenean cities while their kings (Menelaus, Agamemnon, Achilles, etc.) were over at Troy.
I'm not sure why the Dorians have Leonidas of Sparta as leader.
