The stats for this unit were debated between myself and Shqype for several days. Yes the unit is powerful. BUT it is ballanced with the rest of the game and does not give the player an unfair advantage. If you are going to critisize Come up with an alternative. So far the civ has been made for over a year and as of yet YOU are the only one who has commented on the balance of this UU.
New Civ: Dorian Greece
- Thread starter Aranor
- Start date
The stats for this unit were debated between myself and Shqype for several days. Yes the unit is powerful. BUT it is ballanced with the rest of the game and does not give the player an unfair advantage. If you are going to critisize Come up with an alternative. So far the civ has been made for over a year and as of yet YOU are the only one who has commented on the balance of this UU.
OsmarChito
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 145
what amonkey u are SWORDSMAN WITH 7 + 25% CITY ATACK in what world ....i mean why didnt those swordsman conqueer all of europe then..lmao that is so irealistic...u make units because u want to not looking at the balance of the game those man at arms never existed only in ur imagination...25% city atack wtf....
You miss the point of my previous post. I'm open to constructive critisim but if you do not have anything to say other than it overpowered and should not be used I would rather you keep your comments to yourself. This will be the last time I tell you this. If you insist on critisizing my work,without giving a reasonable alternative, DON'T download it, DON'T use it, its no skin off of my nose.
BTW: of course the Doric Swordsman exists in my imagination! There is so little information that exists about them as a people I had to make up the unit for a UU. That is not to say that they did not exist in some form. In civ there are clear distinctions between different styles of units, however at the time many soldiers on the front lines fought with whatever they could lay their hands on, be it spear, sword, axe, or even a simple stone. The fact that I chose to represent their warriors as Swordsmen are twofold. First I had already used the Spearman slot for the Spartan Hoplite (Which has been cut from the latest update). The second and as far as I am concerned the more important reason, is that the Dorians had access to Iron, which the Greeks did not as easy access to. To represent the advantages that Iron weapons had over the bronze weapons of the Greeks it was best to use a Swordsman.
It might pay for you to READ some history before you post next time, that way you can avoid resorting to petty insults, I mean "monkey"? Really that is pretty sad that you cant come up with better. If you had some history you would know the only reason the Dorians invaded Greece ( According to Dorian mythology) is because they were to reclaim their homeland of Doris from invading Greeks from the southern Peleponese. Whether or not this was the fact is still unclear and is a hotly contended topic by many historians. Another theory is it was simply a migration of northern peoples ( most probably Makedoni, Illyrians, or even , although doubtful, Thracians) into the more fertile and trade rich areas of southern Greece. What ever the reason the Dorians did cause untold damage to Greek society of the time. The Mycenean Empire fell and the Greek lands fell into a Dark age that lasted for 300 years. (My memory as to how long the dark age lasted is alittle hazy so if any one knows if I'm wrong please correct me). After this period Dorian settlements could be found all over the eastern coast of Greece.
Thats the end of my little rant. Maybe next time you will think before you post Osmar.
Aranor
Hahah, the Picture of Dorian Greece.
I don't care if it's been said already or not.
mourndraken
King
I think that this is a great additional civ. Good Work on the UU. Those fellows really look like they know their training.
I think that Leonidas looks a little on the wimpy side. Mabey use the official Alaxander ? After all, this is a man who fought to the death halting Persian expansion. I saw a blond Alexander who could go back into Greece. Alexander was blond .. and it seems wrong to use the Persian for the image of the King.
On a side note, this was posted on the first page, but I came across some interesting info that comes in off topic...
http://www.shee-eire.com/Misc/Articles/EygyptianHemp/hemp1.htm
(IMHO, what these scientists have found is evidence of a hippie contaminating the site ..)
"In January [1997] the Discovery Channel broadcast a program stating that cocaine and tobacco had been found in Egyptian mummies known to be at least 3,000 years old. Tests used modern forensic methods and were repeated many times under carefully controlled conditions. Since coca and tobacco are not known to have grown anywhere other than the Americas, the evidence points to trade routes across the Pacific or Atlantic in those remote times. The program seemed to favor a Pacific crossing and then delivery via the Silk Route. Watch for a rebroadcast."
I think that Leonidas looks a little on the wimpy side. Mabey use the official Alaxander ? After all, this is a man who fought to the death halting Persian expansion. I saw a blond Alexander who could go back into Greece. Alexander was blond .. and it seems wrong to use the Persian for the image of the King.
On a side note, this was posted on the first page, but I came across some interesting info that comes in off topic...
I agree, but here's some stuff to read:
http://www.shee-eire.com/Misc/Articles/EygyptianHemp/hemp1.htm
(IMHO, what these scientists have found is evidence of a hippie contaminating the site ..)
"In January [1997] the Discovery Channel broadcast a program stating that cocaine and tobacco had been found in Egyptian mummies known to be at least 3,000 years old. Tests used modern forensic methods and were repeated many times under carefully controlled conditions. Since coca and tobacco are not known to have grown anywhere other than the Americas, the evidence points to trade routes across the Pacific or Atlantic in those remote times. The program seemed to favor a Pacific crossing and then delivery via the Silk Route. Watch for a rebroadcast."
The reason I used the Cyrus leaderhead was that I based the head off of a classical painting of him ( Unfortunately I have long since deleted the photo from my Hard Drive and cant remember the site I found it on.) But the Cyrus leaderhead was closest to the painting.
mourndraken
King
how about this guy ? built by C.Roland. He looks like he uses the Zulu leader's actions
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7636
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7636
Hmmm,while the ub and uu are the best suitable for the dorian civ,I think both leaderheads aint so.I dont have a clue how Leonidas really looked,but I know that ancient Spartan nobility used to have big beards while they shaved their moustaches so they could look more agressive.
Heres the source image of Leonidas I found. As you can see its the closest match within the Leaderheads that came with Vanilla Civ. If I get time I may change him, but right now I am supremely busy with updating to Ionut's Civilizations 3.13.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
I noticed something that's a little, not quite right.
In the civilopedia for the Doric swordsman it says, "They were so succesful against Greek armies because the Dorians had access to iron, which was stronger than the Bronze weapons available to the Greeks."
In actuality, the Greeks had access to iron as well. They just didn't use it much. It is one of the most abundant metals in the world. At the time, it was nearly valueless; tin, used to make bronze, was on the other hand, extremely expensive and difficult to obtain. The products of early ironworking technology were actually inferior to bronze and the only people who used it, did so because they couldn't get their hands on any tin. It wasn't until much later that several centres of advanced ironworking (e.g. Noricum) emerged in Europe that were producing iron goods that were equal to or better than bronze. It took alot of refinement in the smithing techniques before iron was much good. Bronze, on the other hand, is very simple to smith and does not require complicated techniques like pattern-welding or quench hardening to make it suitable for use in weapons and tools. Iron is actually very soft and flexible in its natural state. The early ironmakers increased the carbon content, but not in a controlled way; the more carbon, the harder iron is, but it also becomes brittle. It took many centuries for iron techniques to be refined to achieve an equilibrium between soft but flexible and hard but brittle. The Doric invasion happens at a time long before iron techniques have achieved superiority over bronze.
The more likely reason the Dorics were so succesful was not iron, but that their opponents were relatively primitive in terms of their experience at warfare. Greek warfare of the period is not well understood, but it seems to have been based around light agricultural raiding - not unlike Irish cattle raiding or the like - and the building of fortifications to prevent it. Chariots are still being used at a time when they have disappeared from the armies of Egypt and the Near East. The hoplite and the phalanx are, as yet, unknown; the Greeks of this period don't even seem to have developed a shield-wall tactic of any sort.
In the civilopedia for the Doric swordsman it says, "They were so succesful against Greek armies because the Dorians had access to iron, which was stronger than the Bronze weapons available to the Greeks."
In actuality, the Greeks had access to iron as well. They just didn't use it much. It is one of the most abundant metals in the world. At the time, it was nearly valueless; tin, used to make bronze, was on the other hand, extremely expensive and difficult to obtain. The products of early ironworking technology were actually inferior to bronze and the only people who used it, did so because they couldn't get their hands on any tin. It wasn't until much later that several centres of advanced ironworking (e.g. Noricum) emerged in Europe that were producing iron goods that were equal to or better than bronze. It took alot of refinement in the smithing techniques before iron was much good. Bronze, on the other hand, is very simple to smith and does not require complicated techniques like pattern-welding or quench hardening to make it suitable for use in weapons and tools. Iron is actually very soft and flexible in its natural state. The early ironmakers increased the carbon content, but not in a controlled way; the more carbon, the harder iron is, but it also becomes brittle. It took many centuries for iron techniques to be refined to achieve an equilibrium between soft but flexible and hard but brittle. The Doric invasion happens at a time long before iron techniques have achieved superiority over bronze.
The more likely reason the Dorics were so succesful was not iron, but that their opponents were relatively primitive in terms of their experience at warfare. Greek warfare of the period is not well understood, but it seems to have been based around light agricultural raiding - not unlike Irish cattle raiding or the like - and the building of fortifications to prevent it. Chariots are still being used at a time when they have disappeared from the armies of Egypt and the Near East. The hoplite and the phalanx are, as yet, unknown; the Greeks of this period don't even seem to have developed a shield-wall tactic of any sort.
You are in fact correct. Since I made this civ I have learned a great deal about ancient weapon smithing techniques and fighting styles. I just never got around to changing the civilopedia entry.
Nope!!Greek phalanx was formed several hundred years after the dorian-mycenean clash,and was mastered by the doric people of Sparta and Argos.
Phalanx had a serious misadvantage against short-swordsmen(and roman legionaries when they got close to the phalanx they broke the legion formation to take advantage of that and it worked
).Brennus wasn't that succesful,his army was more like a large group of swift moving plunderers.They never achieved a large scale victory over the Greeks,but their speed allowed them profit from looting as if they had.
mourndraken
King
Spoiler :
mourndraken
King
Spoiler :
"The Illyrians joined Alexander on his conquest of the world and made up a significant portion of his army"
What kind of troops did Illyria have?
I know that originally Macedon had great cavalry but crap infantry. They say Philip got the pike phalanx idea from Thebes, who fielded phalanxes upto 25 men deep, there would be no point fielding such a deep formation with standard Greek spears.
I was reading a book (Greece and Rome at war) that argued that if the Thebans used a two handed pike it would account for their "Boeotian" shields, which were like the one on the Greek civ phalanx unit. Apearently its impossible to use a pike while carrying a big shield, hence the small Macedonian ones.
A point about Spartans, that film 300 (not a fan of that film btw) the Spartans are shown not wearing armour, people moan that the Greeks were heavily armoured. I read recently that most hoplites didn't wear armour, they simply wore a hemlet, greeves and a chiton, most of their body being protected by the shield.
Aranor, your Makedonia civ is the only mod thats actually worked for me, I'm no tech expert so it was a victory of sorts, no other mod I've tried works, they load, it says the new civ's name in the top corner of the screen but they don't apear on the list of civs.
Love those Hypaspists, beautiful models. People always go on about how the Romans sorted the Macedonians out in every battle, Pyrrhus was in their face with only 25,000 men. He was outnumbered in every battle by the legions and (just like Hanibal) though he didn't win the war he left Italy undeafeted in battle.
Which brings me to the point of Hanibals phalanx, no one is totally sure about them, they are described as pikemen, but they often fought in skirmishes and could withdraw at will (such as leading upto the battle of Cannae). These men were deffinately some kind of phalanx, but only numbered 4000, usually deployed on the wings. At Zama, when the rest of the army was defeated, the victorious legions and their allies ran up against a brick wall with these boys, who fought on until finally charged in the rear by Scipio's cavalry.
The hypaspists could pass for Hanibals veterans if we are willing to use the worlbuilder in game (balanced out by giving the enemy free units, it just means more fightin' lol). If I defeat another civilisation, not even totally conquer them, I sometimes incorperate a few of their unique troop type into my army.
What kind of troops did Illyria have?
I know that originally Macedon had great cavalry but crap infantry. They say Philip got the pike phalanx idea from Thebes, who fielded phalanxes upto 25 men deep, there would be no point fielding such a deep formation with standard Greek spears.
I was reading a book (Greece and Rome at war) that argued that if the Thebans used a two handed pike it would account for their "Boeotian" shields, which were like the one on the Greek civ phalanx unit. Apearently its impossible to use a pike while carrying a big shield, hence the small Macedonian ones.
A point about Spartans, that film 300 (not a fan of that film btw) the Spartans are shown not wearing armour, people moan that the Greeks were heavily armoured. I read recently that most hoplites didn't wear armour, they simply wore a hemlet, greeves and a chiton, most of their body being protected by the shield.
Aranor, your Makedonia civ is the only mod thats actually worked for me, I'm no tech expert so it was a victory of sorts, no other mod I've tried works, they load, it says the new civ's name in the top corner of the screen but they don't apear on the list of civs.
Love those Hypaspists, beautiful models. People always go on about how the Romans sorted the Macedonians out in every battle, Pyrrhus was in their face with only 25,000 men. He was outnumbered in every battle by the legions and (just like Hanibal) though he didn't win the war he left Italy undeafeted in battle.
Which brings me to the point of Hanibals phalanx, no one is totally sure about them, they are described as pikemen, but they often fought in skirmishes and could withdraw at will (such as leading upto the battle of Cannae). These men were deffinately some kind of phalanx, but only numbered 4000, usually deployed on the wings. At Zama, when the rest of the army was defeated, the victorious legions and their allies ran up against a brick wall with these boys, who fought on until finally charged in the rear by Scipio's cavalry.
The hypaspists could pass for Hanibals veterans if we are willing to use the worlbuilder in game (balanced out by giving the enemy free units, it just means more fightin' lol). If I defeat another civilisation, not even totally conquer them, I sometimes incorperate a few of their unique troop type into my army.
Thats because the Makedonia civ is the only one done for 3.13. So it will work easily. You can still use any of my civs all that needs to be done is create a new .ini file. Here is how you do it:
1. Go into the mods folder and open up the Dorian Greece folder (or what ever civ you want to use) inside this folder you should see an assets folder, Dorian Greece.ini, and Dorian Greece.bak. Deleate the Dorian Greece.ini and bak files.
2. Start up Civ BtS. Load the Dorian Greece civ. Don't worry it wont work properly this time. This is only to create a new .ini file. Once it all loads close Civ down.
3. Now go back to the Dorian Greece folder. You should see a shiny new .ini and .bak file there. Open up the .ini file.
4. Now you need to edit the file like you would with the civilization.ini file. (Infact it is a mini Civilization.ini file specifically built to work with the mod) Now in the First line you will see this:
Code:
; Modular XML Loading
ModularLoading = 0You will need to change it to this:
Code:
; Modular XML Loading
ModularLoading = 1Once this is done save the file and close.
5. Start up Civ and load the mod. If all works as it is supposed to it should load up.
Hope that helps.
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