New Civilizations

[gunnerxtr]

is it a given that all 31 civs that are currently in civ3 will be in civ4? i would like to see more southeast asian and more african civs.

 

[Greek Stud]

The Confederate States of America had a complete different philosophy on laws and culture. Even today, much of their cultural trends are dominate in the Southern United States. This only comes to the same understanding of knowing what the Confederate flag stands for. Many people only equate the CSA's existance with slavery because that is what they fought for, but there was much more behind their existance. Don't forget other nations like Rome fought to preserve slavery, but when we think of Rome, we see their cultural importance.

 

[Jon Shafer]

is it a given that all 31 civs that are currently in civ3 will be in civ4? i would like to see more southeast asian and more african civs.

Well, all of the civs in Civ I weren't in II, and all the ones in II weren't in III. I doubt it that we'll be seeing all the ones from III in IV.

The Confederate States of America had a complete different philosophy on laws and culture. Even today, much of their cultural trends are dominate in the Southern United States. This only comes to the same understanding of knowing what the Confederate flag stands for. Many people only equate the CSA's existance with slavery because that is what they fought for, but there was much more behind their existance. Don't forget other nations like Rome fought to preserve slavery, but when we think of Rome, we see their cultural importance.

I know you're trying to make a point, but comparing the achievements of the Roman Empire with the CSA is a bit silly, don't you think?

 

[rhialto]

Well, all of the civs in Civ I weren't in II, and all the ones in II weren't in III. I doubt it that we'll be seeing all the ones from III in IV.

Actually, all those in civ1 were in civ2. All those in civ2 eventually made it into C3C. I've sort of got it summarised on http://lajzar.co.uk/wiki/index.php?List of Civs

 

[Jon Shafer]

Yes, eventually is the key word.

 

[gunnerxtr]

thanks for the answers and i love your strategy articles, trip

 

[juudo]

Latvia
Estonia
Lituhiana

 

[Evie]

Lithuania, I could see (or perhaps Lithuania-Poland), as Lithuania was a relatively major medieval player. The other twos, let's not get too far here.

 

[thesmith]

I think my wishlist would include

the fun:
1. Polynesians or Maori

a lot more African:
2. Mali
3. Ghana
4. Great Zimbabwe
5. Nubia

SE Asian:
6. Thai
7. Cambodia
8. Vietnam
9. Java
10. Malays

some more from the Indian subcontinent:
11. Harappan
12. Kerala
13. Tamils
14. Rajasthan
15. Bengali
16. Punjabi


and a few others:
11. Berbers
12. Albanians
13. Inuit
14. Etruscans


I don't know that the game needs too many more American or European civs, I like the way the game develops an international flavor with all the different civs. Though I would love to play the Scots or the Welsh, I think I could put up with them being mods first.

 

[Synergy67]

This is a challenging issue, because you have ancient era civilizations which either no longer exist or have morphed or split into later era civilizations (Persians = Iran?). (Babylon = Iraq?) Yet some of these were very influential for some time history. Sumeria? There are lots of ancient civs I like, but seem a bit out of place by later ages. Some of these pop up in the goody huts and in barbarian villages early on which is kind of fun. America is an amalgum of many migrating nations, but ultimately, probably all peoples are migrants and mixes if you go back far enough. It's an abstraction for fun to be able to play the USA side by side with ancient Babylon. If immigration and civil war and rebellion features are introduced into Civ IV, it could be possible to form an Australia or America much later in the game, have America split into north and south, or for an ancient people to evolve or split into other nations in later ages if they keep true to their own history model.

I think the Hebrews should definitely be included. Each game of Civilization is also like a parallel universe...how MIGHT the nations have worked under different conditions? The Jews might never have been subjugated or dispersed by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Rome. It's up to you to give them a different fate!

 

[klopolov]

Actually, adding Israel (well, I always get confused: Hebrew is a language, Judaism a religion, Israel a country just relatively recently established... what would they be called in a game?) might not be a bad idea IMHO. That would give "the people of that nationality" a chance to conquer the world as well as for some other civs that were included in civ3, but do not exist (as a nation or a significant population) anymore... Surely, Mayans were a great civilization, but I doubt there are a lot of them left. The Judea (if I recall correctly from history classes) kingdom was a fairly significant civilization on par with the Hittites, Sumer...

 

[searcheagle]

Israel/Judea is also a country dating back to the a few thousands years BC ending with the conquest by Rome who set up a dummy government with King Herod.

Then in 1948 it was reestablished.

 

[rhialto]

A few thousands of years BC? Conqust by Rome? hardly.

4th millenium BC - evidence of agrarian communities
3rd millenium BC - evidence of urbanisation
2nd millenium BC - ruled by Hyksos and Egypt
1200 BC - Area conqured by the Philistines
1000 BC - independant Hebrew kingdom under Saul
722 BC - conqured by Assyria
587 BC - conquered by Babylon, temple sacked, ruling classes exiled
538 BC - conqured by Persia, exilees allowed to return. For the next 400 years, the area is widely regarded as a great place to have a battle, by such groups as the Hamonaeans, Assyrians, Samarians, and Greeks
515 BC - temple rebuilt
332 BC - conqured by Alexander the Great
150 BC - brief independance as Judaea
63 BC - Rome is asked to decide on a dispute regarding royal succession, leading to client status (relationship was something like soviet era Hungary to Russia)
4 BC - Herod dies, and Rome enforces his last will, dividing Judaea between his 3 sons.
6 AD - amid popular discontent at the local rulers, Rome establishes direct rule at the request of competing local factions
...
1948 - modern Israel established

So we are looking at 280 years as a hebrew kingdom under Saul's line, then 90 or so years of independance as a Judaean state prior to Roman control, then just under 60 years in modern times.

A few thousands of years BC? Hardly, unless you consider the Old testament to be an impartial history record.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/pa/Palestin.html
http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/judaea.htm
http://avalon.unomaha.edu/jrf/2004Symposium/Crawford.htm

 

[klopolov]

That would make about the same age as the United States, which did qualify to be a civ in civ3.

 

[rhialto]

Ah, but the USA has other things going for it, like being insanely powerful, more so than any other civ ever, and arguably with more military might than the rest of thw world combined.

Plus the USA has more cultural exports than Judaea. I don't count Christianity as a Judaean cultural export here because it is not one that has any significant presence or majority support in the nation today, and because the people of Judaea have historically regarded Christianity not as their most famous cultural export, but as a dangerous offshoot of their own religion.

 

[klopolov]

Ah, but if other nations of the world choose not to bomb innocent people and show the world that they got some bombs too, does it mean the US is more powerful that all the other countries combined? Trust me, quiet a few countries have enough nukes to destroy this planet, so the age of counting and measuring who got the biggest gun is pretty much over... Now, if someone would say that USA was included because there are a lot of people there who might play Civ3 and they might want to play for their nation, I would probably believe that...
And the fact that USA is poisoning other cultures is not a good thing and should not be praised. A McDonalds in front of statue of one of the greatest poets in the world? Give me a break, American culture.... :thumbdown

 

[searcheagle]

Ah, but if other nations of the world choose not to bomb innocent people and show the world that they got some bombs too, does it mean the US is more powerful that all the other countries combined? Trust me, quiet a few countries have enough nukes to destroy this planet, so the age of counting and measuring who got the biggest gun is pretty much over... Now, if someone would say that USA was included because there are a lot of people there who might play Civ3 and they might want to play for their nation, I would probably believe that...
And the fact that USA is poisoning other cultures is not a good thing and should not be praised. A McDonalds in front of statue of one of the greatest poets in the world? Give me a break, American culture.... :thumbdown

Frankly, this is insulting.

Reasons for American Cultural inclusion:
Military strength- strongest military in the world and in the current world, noone else can compete with it. AMERICA IS A HYPERPOWER.
Cultural Dominance- we have millions of people entering the country, legally and illegally, to join it and still there are long waiting lists- try 20 or so years from the Philipines. Throught the world, millions of people indulge in varying aspects of American cultural.
Scientific Powerhouse- Most scientific research is done in the US. Remember the Jet that just broke Mach 10? The Moon landing? etc, etc, etc
Commercial Powerhouse American companies are the center of the world.
A "Light on the Hilltop" America has been a wildly success pilot program showing the world what can happen when its citizens are free and can represent themselves. This has taken route around the world.
Agricultural We feed the world. We are one of the few countries to consistenly to have a surplus, and many people around the world depend on us.

And you say America was only included because that's where most consumers live?

Take your anti American Rant someplace else.

 

[rhialto]

Dammit searcheagle, I'm generally against the USA, and I agree with you on this post!

 

[klopolov]

Frankly, this is insulting.

Reasons for American Cultural inclusion:
Military strength- strongest military in the world and in the current world, noone else can compete with it. AMERICA IS A HYPERPOWER.
Cultural Dominance- we have millions of people entering the country, legally and illegally, to join it and still there are long waiting lists- try 20 or so years from the Philipines. Throught the world, millions of people indulge in varying aspects of American cultural.
Scientific Powerhouse- Most scientific research is done in the US. Remember the Jet that just broke Mach 10? The Moon landing? etc, etc, etc
Commercial Powerhouse American companies are the center of the world.
A "Light on the Hilltop" America has been a wildly success pilot program showing the world what can happen when its citizens are free and can represent themselves. This has taken route around the world.
Agricultural We feed the world. We are one of the few countries to consistenly to have a surplus, and many people around the world depend on us.

And you say America was only included because that's where most consumers live?

Take your anti American Rant someplace else.

1) I have already wrote what I think of the idea of military strenght.

2) American culture is a mixture of many different cultures of the world, and is imposed (people indulge in it) on other countries exactly because of your commercial description. People are coming to this country not because of its great culture, they simply need jobs and hope for better life style (again strictly commercial reason, while yes, there are political reasons as well, but relative to commercial - very very few).

3) American scientific powerhouse rests on shoulders of immigrant scientists who are in US for commercial interests.

4) I believe that the French Revolution showed the world the possibility to overthrow the government that does not fulfill its role of taking care of its subjects.

5) Half of the world is still hungry... And another half can feed itself just fine...

6) Once again, I apologize for being off the topic...

 

[bkwrm79]

Excellent post, Searcheagle. Thank you.