New Expansion Speculation Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Elizebeth I still gets away with a lot. Everybody remembers Elizebeth as this saintly ruler but Catholics were treat terribly under her rule. I know that Protestants were also treat cruelly under Mary I but that is all that 'Bloody Mary' is known for.
Many historians are revising their opinion of Mary Tudor, though I suspect her pop culture legacy as "Bloody Mary" is fixed for the foreseeable future. As for Elizabeth, most leaders who are household names did bad things: unless what they did was egregious by the standards of their own time (which is hardly true of Elizabeth--religious persecution was, unfortunately, the norm in 16th century Europe), their legacy is more likely to be based on their accomplishments, especially if they're as charismatic as Elizabeth.

NB that what makes Mary Tudor stand out isn't religious persecution: it's persecution of Protestants in a Protestant country by a Catholic monarch, though even then she was regarded favorably by her subjects before her engagement to Philip II of Spain, which many English saw as betrayal. So I wouldn't say Elizabeth gets away with "a lot"--she didn't do any differently than virtually any other monarch in Europe was doing at the time. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it difficult to judge her for it.
 
NB that what makes Mary Tudor stand out isn't religious persecution: it's persecution of Protestants in a Protestant country by a Catholic monarch, though even then she was regarded favorably by her subjects before her engagement to Philip II of Spain, which many English saw as betrayal. So I wouldn't say Elizabeth gets away with "a lot"--she didn't do any differently than virtually any other monarch in Europe was doing at the time. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it difficult to judge her for it.

A recently converted Protestant country that was Catholic prior to Marys fathers rule and had been Catholic for over a thousand years before that. I'm sure many English people converted to Protestantism willingly under Henry VIII and Elizebeth I but a lot were also forced to convert through fear and intimidation. And English monarchs marrying into French or Spanish Monarchs was nothing new they had always done that.

I'm aware that I know nowhere near as much about history than you do but I just wanted to say that Elizabeth I wasn't as saintly and admirable as people think she was. And a lot of the arts and wealth that flourished under Elizebeth was due to Englands involvement in the slave trade. Elizebeth was patron of Jon Hawkins, the first English slaver to run a triangular trade route between England, Africa and America.

An example of Elizebeth's duplicity is that when she found out that England was trading slaves she cried. But when Elizebeth was shown the products such as sugar, salt, cocoa, coffee, gold, and peals being brought back England became an immediate partner in the trade.

Other English monarchs before and after Elizebeth are remembered as good or bad rulers. Circumstances differ over time but Elizebeth I did some terrible things whilst knowing that they were morally wrong. Englands 'Golden Age' under Elizebeth's rule has been praised and celebrated but a lot of her success was built upon the persecution and exploitation of others. Sorry I'm not being argumentative I just want to raise awareness and knock Elizebeth of her perch a little bit.
 
I'd say there's about a 50% chance we get something official next week that turns out to be related to the expansion, mostly likely a teaser on Tuesday or Wednesday.

My optimism is a bit dimmed for this possibility due to it being Thanksgiving week. Though I will say that I think there's about a 95% chance we'll get something before the end of the month! :D
 
Maybe but it's still weird considering that Napoleon is most famous for being a great general that conquered all of Europe.
As a general definitely, but as a ruler he conquered it - and then lost it again (and lost lands conquered prior to him, and lost/sold near all of France's colonial holdings and basically bankrupted it and arguably ended its dominance as a result). His long term impact was much more cultural - i.e. law, school systems, metric code, all the 'stolen' Egyptian artifacts in Paris etc..

It's obviously a facile comparison, but I found it interesting that no one seems to object to Napoleon's prior inclusion despite the state he left France in, but for Seondeok the big objection seemed to be 'she lost territory before the end of her rule'.
 
A recently converted Protestant country
Less than a hundred years after Martin Luther, that's the only kind of Protestant nation there was. :p

a lot were also forced to convert through fear and intimidation.
And the same was true of Protestants forced to recant in France and Spain. We can play the blame game or we can accept that Protestants and Catholics both did horrible things to each other. I'm Protestant, but I hold no animosity towards Catholics. The Reformation and Counter-Reformation were 500 years ago; being bitter about them now doesn't help anyone.

And English monarchs marrying into French or Spanish Monarchs was nothing new they had always done that.
True, but marrying a very Catholic monarch while persecuting Protestants in England was not exactly politic...

I'm aware that I know nowhere near as much about history than you do but I just wanted to say that Elizabeth I wasn't as saintly and admirable as people think she was.
I don't think anyone thinks any Tudor is saintly.

You complained about Catherine de Medici being leader of France so that is entirely moot. Still have your wallet open for Louis XIV?
I've come to like CdM's in-game persona: she's sinister and charming all at once. I wouldn't have picked her, but I've come to like her. But yes, I'd gladly pay for Louis XIV, Philippe Auguste, Francis I, or another French monarch--though I'd place France's priority below England or Egypt.
 
As a side note, after reading Ken Follet's A Column of Fire I'm actually really hype that Catherine de' Medici is in the game. She was quite badass, just not well known.
This is the reason why I appreciate her more after reading that book. It still doesn't make me wish for Louis XIV even less though, as he would have been my first pick.
If the leak does turn out to be true maybe Firaxis will find a way to make Roxelana and Atahualpa interesting, but in the back of my mind there are definitely better choices.
 
And the same was true of Protestants forced to recant in France and Spain. We can play the blame game or we can accept that Protestants and Catholics both did horrible things to each other. I'm Protestant, but I hold no animosity towards Catholics. The Reformation and Counter-Reformation were 500 years ago; being bitter about them now doesn't help anyone.

I am Catholic but I wouldn't say I'm bitter. My girlfriend and a lot of my friends are Protestants and I can't say that I carry reformation problems around with me everyday but my Irish ancestors certainly did, up until very recently in fact. And there is still to this day anti Catholic sentiment in Britain so you can't dismiss the legacy of the reformation entirely.

I've come to like CdM's in-game persona: she's sinister and charming all at once. I wouldn't have picked her, but I've come to like her. But yes, I'd gladly pay for Louis XIV, Philippe Auguste, Francis I, or another French monarch--though I'd place France's priority below England or Egypt.

I'm the same wasn't keen on Cdm at first but have come to really like her, to play as or against. Louis and Philippe are good choices.
 
And there is still to this day anti Catholic sentiment in Britain so you can't dismiss the legacy of the reformation entirely.
Oh, I'm certainly not. I know a lot of Protestants who hate Catholics and I know a lot of Catholics who hate Protestants. It makes me sad: I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. :( I'm just saying that 500 years later it's time to forgive the wrongs we did to each other and move on as the Body and Bride of Christ.

This is the reason why I appreciate her more after reading that book.
Pillars of the Earth has had a mile-long wait list at my local library for like two years. :cry:

Firaxis will find a way to make Roxelana and Atahualpa interesting
I've already proposed the way to make Atahualpa interesting: show him brandishing his brother's gilt skull. :mischief:
 
Oh, I'm certainly not. I know a lot of Protestants who hate Catholics and I know a lot of Catholics who hate Protestants. It makes me sad: I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. :( I'm just saying that 500 years later it's time to forgive the wrongs we did to each other and move on as the Body and Bride of Christ.
Forgiveness is a true Christian quality.

I've already proposed the way to make Atahualpa interesting: show him brandishing his brother's gilt skull. :mischief:
Somehow I doubt that will happen.
 
Oh, I'm certainly not. I know a lot of Protestants who hate Catholics and I know a lot of Catholics who hate Protestants. It makes me sad: I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. :( I'm just saying that 500 years later it's time to forgive the wrongs we did to each other and move on as the Body and Bride of Christ.

Well said. You know what all the talk this evening about Elizabeth has really made me want to want the film.. Elizabeth lol.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom