New IGN info on Warlords

[a4phantom]

I'm hoping for a War-Elephant UU for Hannibal but I don't think I'm going to get my wish. =o/

That was my thinking. There's already a war elephant, plus you wouldn't want your UU dependent on a very rare resource like ivory. I thought of vassel states as something they should do, in my idea they counted for domination and you had automatic Open Borders and access to all their resources, but couldn't control production in the cities.

 

[Zombie69]

Why not? The Keshik is the Mongol UU, even though there's already a horse archer, and in reality only the Mongols should have horse archers at all.

 

[a4phantom]

Why not? The Keshik is the Mongol UU, even though there's already a horse archer, and in reality only the Mongols should have horse archers at all.

Horses are a very common resource, and there is a very good chance that the Mongols (and Persians, Russians and Egyptians) will have them or the ability to obtain them. Ivory is rare and Carthage in most games would be denied their UU if it was a hyped up elephant.

I did think it was a little wierd to make horse archer a staple unit, but I believe the makers were trying to wean away from the strictly Western European model. Hence obelisks, Three Gorges Dam instead of Hoover, etc.

 

[Watiggi]

Why not? The Keshik is the Mongol UU, even though there's already a horse archer, and in reality only the Mongols should have horse archers at all.

Hehe. Yeah, I found that a little amusing myself.

 

[Yva!n]

Just like the Arabian UU (no resources required), there's no technical reason that a hypothetical Carthagian Elephant UU would require Ivory.

 

[a4phantom]

So the Carthagian UU would be the elephant unit pumped up and spared the requirement that one have elephants to produce it.

There isn't a camel resource in the game.

 

[cabert]

So the Carthagian UU would be the elephant unit pumped up and spared the requirement that one have elephants to produce it.

There isn't a camel resource in the game.

that would be powerful! jumbos without ivory is a big boost!

 

[a4phantom]

that would be powerful! jumbos without ivory is a big boost!

Seems unlikely though. I can't think of a UU that exempts the resource you should logically need to build it. Camel archers lose the horse requirement by not riding horses. Elephants losing the ivory requirement by being elephants?

 

[a4phantom]

I hope they drop the cheap promotions for Charismatic. It doesn't make much sense, and +2 happiness seems plenty powerful on its own. At least as valuable as +2 culture/turn (Creative) or +3 health (expansive).

 

[salty]

Seems unlikely though. I can't think of a UU that exempts the resource you should logically need to build it. Camel archers lose the horse requirement by not riding horses. Elephants losing the ivory requirement by being elephants?

This is easily solved by changing the Ivory icon to a bar of soap.

 

[a4phantom]

How about salt? It's always seemed wierd that salt wasn't a resource.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Why not? The Keshik is the Mongol UU, even though there's already a horse archer, and in reality only the Mongols should have horse archers at all.

Why? Plenty of civilizations used Horse Archers (especially in the middle east where both the Persians and Assyrians used them regularly historically).

BTW, I don't think Carthage should have War Elephants as their uu. Although Hannibal is famous for them, they never did him much good (most died crossing the alps, at Zama, they were a significant reason why he lost). In other wars, they might make an impact, but only until the enemy figured them out. Compared to Indian Elephants, they were small and not as impressive. If they used the same unit as Civ3, I could accept it (even though it was incorrectly named). Libyan (not Numidian) heavy infantry were very effective mercenaries for Carthage in both the first and second Punic War. Numidian Cavalry (fast, lightly-armed, javelin-throwing horsemen) were helpful (and really cool). I saw some pictures of slingers in a screenshot. I think Balearic Slingers were among the best skirmishers of the ancient age, so, if that was Carthage's uu, it would make sense.

Overall, Carthage had a significant variety of mercenary and subject troops available to them. To sum that up as "guys with Elephants" would be completely inaccurate.

 

[salty]

How about salt? It's always seemed wierd that salt wasn't a resource.

They probably folded it into 'spices' so they wouldn't get complaints about how the salt icon looked like snow, dandruff or cocaine.

 

[salty]

Why? Plenty of civilizations used Horse Archers (especially in the middle east where both the Persians and Assyrians used them regularly historically).

The Scythian Horse Archers come to mind too, but some may say they were ancentral to Mongols.

 

[a4phantom]

They probably folded it into 'spices' so they wouldn't get complaints about how the salt icon looked like snow, dandruff or cocaine.

Doubtless!

The Scythian Horse Archers come to mind too, but some may say they were ancentral to Mongols.

Wikipedia sayeth:

A horse archer (or horsed archer, mounted archer) is a cavalryman armed with a bow. Because using a bow requires a horseman to let go of the reins with both hands, horse archers need superb equestrian skills. Horse archery is typically associated with equestrian nomads of the Eurasian steppe. Peoples known to have employed horse archers include the Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians, Huns, Hungarians, Mongols, Turks, Armenians and Bulgars. In Japan mounted archery is called Yabusame.

Horse archery is the earliest form of cavalry altogether. The Iron Age horse was not strong enough to bear an armoured rider, little larger than modern ponies. Horse archers replace the Bronze Age chariot which allowed mobile attacks even with horses too small to bear a man. Other light cavalry saw only limited use in Classical Antiquity (the Roman Equites), and heavy cavalry was introduced only in Sassanid times (3rd or 4th century).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_archer

So it looks like Civ4 got the upgrade ladder pretty much right (although Keshiks should probably technically toast knights), and I think an effort was being made to include more elements (horse archers, obelisks, chariots, Three Gorges Dam replacing Hoover) from outside Western Europe and America.

 

[winddbourne]

The real issue is that we aren't given the option to make ANY civ become nomadic and warlike in the style of Mongols of old. We are allowed to make the Mongols (and others) more "civilized", but we can't make the Spanish into a marauding tribe of nomadic conquerors?

Now THAT would be an interesting choice to make...

Agreed. It also should be simple enough for Firaxis to put into this expansion, or maybe the next one since it would need some serious playtesting. Civ IV: Nomads? That could be a pretty nifty expansion all by itself.

The only real problem is how such a "civilization" would progress. In real life most "nomadic" peoples have been pushed into the worst areas on earth, while settled peoples have claimed all the good lands, fencing them off, building houses, and shooting at any "nomad" that dared complain. More successful nomads conquered cities and settled down to rule other peoples empires. Take the mongols, they took over china, india, and russia.

Anyway . . . actually implimenting the nomad wouldn't be so hard, once you have the ability for a unit to spawn other units. Simply start out with the basic "nomad" units, and give them the option of "found new city" like a settler.

Once you found any city of your own you can't build any more nomad units, but you can always keep the cities you conquer! Just be sure that the "nomad" base unit counts as a city for the purposes of civic cost or things could get very unbalanced.

Of course I'd PREFER the nomad unit to be more than just a unit that spawns other units, as described in the previews I've read. It would be nice if they actually acted like moving cities with small populations of their own, and carrying around units that they built.

A nomad tribe could exploit horses in one place, move over to use some iron elsewhere, get unhappy and go looking for some ivory, etc . . . And of course kick but when someone like the romans enters their territory with a settler, ready to plop down a city and kick them out into the desert!