New Japanese UP Ideas

[Honko]

Hi all,

For the past week or so I've been modding RFC focusing completely on Japan. My goal is to make them more realistic and less useless when played by the AI, and when I'm satisfied I'll post the changes here and move on to another Civ. I've changed a lot of things: two new leaders for post-Meiji and post-WW2; new settler maps so they use their island more efficiently and focus expansion more on Inner Manchuria and the Chinese east coast instead of useless cities in Russia that they historically had little interest in; tweaked tech rates, unit AIs, a couple resource changes, and more.

I also changed the UP, because (a) promotion UPs are boring, and (b) the current one doesn't make that much sense anyway. Now I have it as the Power of Kamikaze: enemy ships in Japanese waters have 1/3 chance to sink each turn.

I like this new one in theory, because it's more unique, it fulfills a similar purpose as the original UP by keeping the cities on the main island safe, and it represents historically how the Japanese were saved from Mongolian invasion and obviously the Kamikaze tactics in WW2.

In practice though this is pretty lame. The AI is already terrible at naval invasions, and the Japanese island is almost never in danger, so it's pretty much pointless against an AI China or Mongolia. And as a human opponent it's just an unpredictable frustration if you wanted to invade with Galleys in the early game and far too easy to avoid with Battleships/Transports in the late game.

So now I'm back to trying to think of a new UP to give them, and I'm out of ideas so I thought I'd ask for suggestions. Anyone have any ideas of a UP you'd like to see for Japan?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Power of Isolationism: No stability penalties due to low amount of traded resources, bad relations, or any other 'Foreign' stability issues. (So basically they can't lose stability points in the Foreign area.

 

[dagriggstar]

back in the day when I was playing alot of RFC...

Changed the UU to a wokou (Japanese Pirate) - basically so they'd harass China. The theory was that you could weaken their economy to the point that it'd be more likely to be conquered by the Mongols when they came around

For the UP I'd have something like specialists produce double output. If nothing else, it'd make mercantism the best choice for much of the game as the economic civic.

 

[civ-addicted]

Japan's actual plan in WW2 was an empire that covers the whole pacific ocean. I tried that once on viceroy...and it worked out
The only thing that bothered me: All the cities on these little islands were awfully unproductive. So something like "The power of Taiheiyou" (japanese name of pacific ocean) which gives either +1 and +1 on every pacific ocean tile or +2 traderoutes in every city that's buildt at the pacific ocean

 

[nody]

Power of Isolationism should also include: less likeness for the spread of plague.

 

[The Turk]

Very good work Honko, I really love your recreation of Japan. I'm currently working on my own mod called Rhyes and Fall Realism, which plays on your same idea. The problem is that I've been focusing mostly on the Middle East and Europe, and for a "realism" mod I haven't even changed the Chinese capital. So I was wondering if I could possibly integrate your Japanese recreation, as I also think that the Japanese are kind if silly in the game. And of course I will give you full credit for your work.
If you are interested please email me at: the.turkciv@gmail.com

Also I like the Isolationist UP the best, plus it makes the most sense. But then again does Japan really need the stability boost, I mean unless you are trying to recreate Japan in WW2, you don't really need that extra stability.

But anyways thanks!

 

[Honko]

I really like the ideas so far, especially the Power of Taiheiyou. I think I'll experiment with that one first. Japan doesn't really need a stability boost, and ideally they should fall behind a bit while they are playing the isolation game, and then quickly begin to catch up once the leader switches and they start opening borders and expanding.

Turk, I have seen your thread and I'd love to be included. After I finish Japan my plan was to move on to their Asian neighbors Khmer, Mongolia, China, and Russia. If you were planning to do them as well maybe we can share ideas, or else I'd be happy to also contribute my changes for those too when I finish.

 

[fireclaw722]

The only thing that bothered me: All the cities on these little islands were awfully unproductive. So something like "The power of Taiheiyou" (japanese name of pacific ocean) which gives either +1 and +1 on every pacific ocean tile or +2 traderoutes in every city that's buildt at the pacific ocean

I second this!
And Japan's 'WW2 Plan'(of dominating the pacific) is quite easy, if starting early enough(It just isn't worth all of the useless cities)...

 

[youtien]

Power of espionage: all espionage cost 30-50% less points.

 

[youtien]

For Japan is good at learning from others and spying, from ancient times till now.

 

[corovanrobber]

Eyah but there's a necessity of encouraging the AI to chop jungle on those little Pacific islands & settle them. I mean the Power of Taiheiyo as you've put it.

The espionage UP, you know espionage's not as popular amongst some players. And you'd typically research faster (or not?!)


screw me I need less of that German wine.

 

[usi]

Pure , , or bonus would make them strong early on, rather than late-game.
How about the power of "Kaizen," say, all the plots within 2 tiles of Honsyu produce +1 and +1 after the Industrial era?

 

[Jusos2108]

If you want to make them to grow powerful quickly later, make the Power of Taiheiyo to work like this:

All coastal tiles produce 2 hammers after reaching the industrial age


Yes I know, but Germany also has an UP that doesn't kick in until the industrial age. If you don't like like that, it can always be:

+1 commerce in coastal tiles until the industrial age; +1 hammer in every sea tile after reaching the industrial age

 

[usi]

The reason I didn't even refer to the "Taiheiyou" UP was that almost no Japanese would see Taiheiyou to be some sort of power for them. That's like having the power of Rocky Mountains as Americans.

"Isolationism" is just specific to Tokugawa and isn't true either (Tokugawa hated/feared Christianity after seeing a Christian revolt in Shimabara, so he traded only with certain Westerns like the Dutch who did not try to spread Christianity).

"Wakou" was first Japanese, but later mostly Chinese.

 

[The Turk]

I agree with Usi, I like the idea that Japan doesn't get its UP until the Industrial Age. Not to mention, combined with expansive Japanese leaders, I think that would be a much better choice, then the Pacific Islands one. Also, why would anyone want to settle on those islands anyways??

 

[civ-addicted]

I agree with Usi, I like the idea that Japan doesn't get its UP until the Industrial Age. Not to mention, combined with expansive Japanese leaders, I think that would be a much better choice, then the Pacific Islands one. Also, why would anyone want to settle on those islands anyways??

Ask the Japanese, they had this crappy plan
No, seriously, you have to have the highest score in 1930, and having a lot of cities gives you that. This means you can achieve their goal on a more pacifist way.
Maybe Usi is right to make this UP availibe after entering Industrial age, because the Japanese didn't cared about the world outside until 1900-ish
If it's about the name, this is definitly discussable. But i think it sound a bit...mysterious if it's in Japanese; Taiheiyou is just the first that came in my mind. What about "Byoubyoutarudaiyou" (something like "endless ocean", but it's terribly long) or "Manshima" (10000 islands)?
btw, usi, 日本人だか?

 

[usi]

btw, usi, 日本人だか?

アメリカ在住の日本人だよ。
(= I'm Japanese in the US.)

If it's about the name, this is definitly discussable. But i think it sound a bit...mysterious if it's in Japanese

Do you mean "Kaizen" is mysterious? That's in English Wikipedia.

Ask the Japanese, they had this crappy plan

They just had nowhere else to expand.
Southern islands were full of jungles, invading Korea meant a war with its master (China), and invading China (which has/had 10X population of Japan almost all the time in history) was simply crazy...

 

[The Turk]

NO NO! I'm not asking WHY the Japanese historically took these islands, of course these Islands in real life, in real history, have A LOT of strategic importance. But in this game, when you invade China as the Japanese, and you don't need to worry about the US invading you (I mean have you EVER played a game with the US invades Japan?), it makes no sense to take those tiny islands, which have no resources around them anyways! Their just a drain on maintenance. So instead of trying to colonize South East Asia (which is usually empty by the way), your actually going to give them a UP which helps them colonize islands??? I personally think that it should be something expansive (Westward) or some Industrial era bonus, like the one mentioned below. I would REALLY like to see the Japanese ACTUALLY invade China/Korea (which they do time to time) and Khmer (Indochina) instead of making Lagos (crappy city in N. Philippines) and random cities in Siberia.

Since I'm obviously NOT Japanese, I don't have a name for this UP, but after watching a documentary about Emperor Hirohito today (on the History Channel, I recommend it), I realized, why not give all Japanese foot soldiers bonuses once they hit the Industrial Age, once they end being isolationist. Give them perhaps city attack promotion, or something like that, and it would be surrounded by the idea, of faithful loyalty to serving the Emperor, I don't know what it would be called, but it would be nice to give to Japanese units, once the new Japanese LH comes.

By the way, what are the new Japanese LH's you are adding Honko? Is it General Tojo or Emperor Hirohito?

 

[usi]

The AI doesn't really care about promoted soldiers, so it's pretty hard to make Japan invade other civs, unless we make conqueror-like events.
But if we are to make such events, I guess the British Empire deserves to have thaese against both India and China.

 

[The Turk]

Or you can force the Japanese player to declare war on the Khmer and China, and give both Khmer and China a stability hit. Or we could have an event, where a pop-up says something along the lines of, "Its time for War!! Build X infantry and X bombers and X artillery in X turns. And then if it is completed, you can have those units removed from Japan and spawn in China or Khmer lands.