New Japanese UP Ideas

[Chiyochan]

>>force the player to declare war.

Get out.


I don't have many ideas, I like the idea of the sea islands because i like colonizing them but if its realistic or not i don't know, what I do know is that Japanese UP is useless, it basically means that if you have to use it you've already lost because of stability; Japan is super densily populated, maybe they could get a special (automatically built) building that increases the size of the cities in their main island and cuts down on maintenance.

Making isolationist powerful is also another idea, as it would give Japan a rather large benefit as the AI who keeps picking the stupid civic, however it still might be weak because eastern nations already have a huge stability bonus on foreign because of the lack of neighbors. The only other idea i could think of is a nice war mongering one, although I hate to play that way; The power of Banzai: Free combat 1 Promotion for all units, Japan never gains negative stability modifiers for losing units in combat.

 

[The Turk]

I'm sorry but did you even read this entire thread? I mean you should know that the Japanese in Honko mod go from being Isolationist to be expansive, that's why they don't need anything to help them be isolationist, especially when there cities and grow large and they are already usually at the top of the chart. What we need is something to give to the Japanese 'expansive' side, something which will help them invade China and the Khmer.

Also it's obvious you didn't read this thread because, Honko said he redid their settler maps so that they will grow EVEN better by the late game

 

[admtanaka]

I'm not sure I'm totally sold on the idea of basing a 2000 year old civilization's UP on 40 years of ultra-nationalism. I'm even less inclined to do so when Germany is similarly handled.

I'd rather give Japan the charismatic trait and call it "Bushido." This applies better to Japan's militaristic history broadly, as opposed to a trait that boosts industrial age expansion, which really only describes Japan from 1890-1940 or so. It also assists them in both defending the home islands (through promotion) during the isolationist eras and during its relatively brief expansion periods.

 

[The Turk]

Hello??? What type of Americo centric universe do you live in? Japanese industry is HUGE even after it's decline in the 90's, giving them a boost by the industrial age is excellent, because Japan will stay isolationist until then, then hopefully they'll start grabbing colonies, around the time the Europeans do so as well, and after nationalism, and they lose those colonies the hopeful plan is that they will still stay ahead in the score board with their Industry UP

 

[Baldyr]

I'm not sure that a new Japanese UP needs to be connected to how you want the AI to behave. Because it won't start re-enacting history just because it gets a Unique Power at some game turn. So the added muscles would probably not be used for the intended purpose anyway.

So I see the UP as a separate issue from the alternate history unfolding in the game. AI behavior would have to be altered in some other way - or historical events could be scripted with spawns and flips and whatnot. The latter would of course make it a scenario rather than a mod-mod.

Its like the Mongolian UP doesn't make the Mongols recreate the Mongol Empire every time, or really hardly ever. If you need this in your game, you'd have to make a scenario where this is scripted to happen - every time.

edit: What I'm basically saying is that the UP probably needs to be designed with the human player in mind. So go with whatever enhances playability/enjoyment and works with playing historically/going for the UHV. Because the AI won't be aware of any of it.

 

[The Turk]

I realise that, and Honko is working on making the Japanese favour china more, BUT the UP still needs to reflect historical accuracy

 

[admtanaka]

Hello??? What type of Americo centric universe do you live in? Japanese industry is HUGE even after it's decline in the 90's, giving them a boost by the industrial age is excellent, because Japan will stay isolationist until then, then hopefully they'll start grabbing colonies, around the time the Europeans do so as well, and after nationalism, and they lose those colonies the hopeful plan is that they will still stay ahead in the score board with their Industry UP

Excuse me, but did you read my post? Where did I imply anything about Japanese industry? Furthermore, your last suggestion for a power was a boost to infantry units after industrialism, which is similar (but more focused) than my own suggestion.

Also, I can't help but notice (from reading this and other threads) that you seem to have a problem expressing yourself without being outright rude. I assume English is your second language, but watch the way you speak to people. To suggest that what I posted earlier means I live in an "Americo centric universe" is a preposterous ad hominem.

 

[killerkebab]

Baldyr has it right imo. The UP should be something for the player as a whole - be it AI or human - rather than simply a way to shape the way the civ plays when the CPU is in control.

To try and "tailor" Japan I did this:
Force city spawns on Honshu and reduce starting settlers in Japan to 1 (to settle Kyouto on turn 1). In the city spawn code, make it so that other cities have a "random element" to them (check Baldyr's pyscenario code). The result is that the Japanese mainland always has Kyoto and Tokyo, and then a ~50% chance for each of Nagasaki/Sapporo (so a ~25% chance that they both appear, etc). If cities already exist the AI is usually reluctant to add to the mainland and therefore the AI settles less on Honshu.

The result also meant that the AI had more time and settlers to concentrate on settling abroad. Unfortunately since I don't know how to edit settler maps, that means the AI almost always heads straight to Vladivostok and Siberia

I changed the entire Philippine islands to jungle tiles, and Manila's tile changes to forest in AD1600. This usually means that in the 17th century Japan (usually, though I've seen Spanish and Khmer settlement there before) usually settles Manila instead of some useless town like Davao. If the AI is feeling really adventurous, they'll head to Jakarta nearer the modern age. I feel like I've almost got the AI to play a bit better, but I need to give them another nudge - being able to edit the settler maps would sort my troubles out imo.

Even better would be a way to make it so that jungles can be chopped before Biology. I feel that is a slightly too advanced research. Maybe change it to something like Astronomy, Replaceable Parts, something like that.

 

[Alexandertheg8]

Ask the Japanese, they had this crappy plan
No, seriously, you have to have the highest score in 1930, and having a lot of cities gives you that. This means you can achieve their goal on a more pacifist way.
Maybe Usi is right to make this UP availibe after entering Industrial age, because the Japanese didn't cared about the world outside until 1900-ish
If it's about the name, this is definitly discussable. But i think it sound a bit...mysterious if it's in Japanese; Taiheiyou is just the first that came in my mind. What about "Byoubyoutarudaiyou" (something like "endless ocean", but it's terribly long) or "Manshima" (10000 islands)?
btw, usi, 日本人だか?

The power which gives extra hammers for coastal tiles should be called "Power of the rising sun"

I am just imagining tokyo with hammers on all it's coasts... glorious city!

Well anyway if the Unique power is anything sea related i think it should be named after the rising sun.

Another thing could be that Sea resources could produce bonus hammers and commerce to simulate the importance of sea food in the japanese diet. So putting a fishing net on a fish would give bonus 3 food (+ the one food already given) 2 hammers, and 2 Commerce. So with a lighthouse and on the coast it would have 6 food, 2 hammers, 2 Commerce. This power would make Toyohara actualy somewhat useful and would make small islands with access to a sea resource better, but not super, for the japanese

 

[BenZL43]

I hope this project continued