New Patch Incoming!

[wayneb64]

If they're one-shotted, then you've chosen a bad angle of attack. ^^ For everything else we have units to swap around.

I am not attacking, I am holding them off. You don't attack with T1 units against T2 defenders. Two shots from a T2 Ranger and anything but a CMDR is dead. Fortunately the AI is pretty clueless on it's use of ranged units most of the time.

 

[Ryika]

Well, if you're defending, then your melee units should be even less important.

 

[wayneb64]

Like I said they are walls and pincushions. They distract and block they AI until my ranged can wear them down. (Or until the AI units jump in the water so I can sink them.) My rangers cannot take a hit, and if they are close enough to shoot my city the battle is pretty much lost. The AI has no patience so if all I offer is bad places to be, they will jump into the slaughter spots.

 

[Manannan]

I am not attacking, I am holding them off. You don't attack with T1 units against T2 defenders. Two shots from a T2 Ranger and anything but a CMDR is dead. Fortunately the AI is pretty clueless on it's use of ranged units most of the time.

You really don't need CNDRs/battlesuits/xeno swarms to form up a reasonable meat shield for your gunners over marines though. The extra 10 strength isn't that big of a deal that the 60 (or whatever) extra hammers is particular worth it when you can just pump out more marines and wait out the handful of turns before they get upgraded to a superior unit anyway. You may lose a few more before you get them upgraded, but who cares? They're there to act as speed bumps anyway, and should still yield a far stronger force once you get 6 affinity.

 

[Ryika]

Like I said they are walls and pincushions. They distract and block they AI until my ranged can wear them down. (Or until the AI units jump in the water so I can sink them.) My rangers cannot take a hit, and if they are close enough to shoot my city the battle is pretty much lost. The AI has no patience so if all I offer is bad places to be, they will jump into the slaughter spots.

Yes, but again, Marines do the job just fine. Sure, affinity units are even BETTER at doing that job, I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying it also works without them and they're more of an investment (more hammers needed + potential 1-2 energy per turn by not trading that resource to an AI), so overall one wants to be as efficient as possible one generally skips affinity4 units.

 

[wayneb64]

They are also cheaper than T2 Marines, and I generally keep them alive gaining experience if I have enough to rotate out when they get to low in health. If not I spend the upgrade on health.

Therefore it's not wasted production because I don't have to build throw away units. Also, as they are fortified their 10 extra strength (which is nearly double) gets even stronger because they are dug in. They also save on energy as having two or three extra marines to back themselves up when they are vaporized costs way more than CMDRs. All the upgrades and bonuses are on twice the base strength, so again more effective.

 

[Manannan]

Alright, this is bugging me now. CNDRs, not CMDRs. Typo police are here!

They're more expensive than marines, unless you're referring to something other than production that I'm unaware of? 100 production for a marine, 155 for a CNDR, so you can pump out 3 marines in the time it takes to build 2 CNDRs. Being able to pump out 12 marines who will upgrade to disciples in the time it takes to build 8 CNDRs who will become obsolete within a few dozen turns at the latest is a better use of hammers imo, even if a couple marines don't make it to becoming disciples. Again, no one is questioning that CNDRs/battlesuits/xeno swarms are stronger units than marines, we're just saying there is no point in building them when marines do the job well enough to make the affinity units pointless for the short span of time that they're relevant.

 

[s0nny80y]

TR with level 3 outposts with the industry energy bonus per outpost tier (alternative markets) I think is priority enough to include sustaining outposts a reasonable gameplay value.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

TR with level 3 outposts with the industry energy bonus per outpost tier (alternative markets) I think is priority enough to include sustaining outposts a reasonable gameplay value.

You mean stations. I figured that out from context but can we all statr using the correct name so no one gets confused?

 

[s0nny80y]

You mean stations. I figured that out from context but can we all statr using the correct name so no one gets confused?

I stand corrected :]

 

[tedeviatings]

There's a subtle difference between what is realistic and what is logical.
I'd use the example of Megatron from Transformers. He's a huge robot that can turn into a human scale gun. Unrealistic. But I've heard the explanation that Transformers fold components into a fourth dimension of subspace, so their size only changes in our three dimensional perspective. Logical although not realistic.
I'm fine with things being unrealistic for gameplay reasons, but having new cities get nothing from trade while big cities get more than they could get from a developed city is illogical.
In realism vs gameplay, I'd like them to try and meet in the middle at logic.

Assuming it sums up about as follows I agree with your post:

"Realism is different from logical consistence. To you it is important that games meet a certain standard of logical consistency, CivBE does not meet that standard."

As response I want to sum up the post of me you quoted and add some words at the end:

"You (the guy I quoted in my last post) obviously value realism in games and that's certainly a valid opinion. Because you value realism the argument "the game is too unrealistic" is relevant to you.
But there seem to be a lot of people for which the most important factor in determining how much fun they'll have playing CivBE is game balance. For these players the relevance of "the game is too unrealistic" will be smaller than for you, it might even be completely irrelevant to them."

Now if you substitute the word "realism" for any given property that's not game balance the point still stands - including "logical consistency".
There are points to be made about how logical consistency might be more important than realism to a lot of players and a lot of other things well... But I'm generally too lazy to preemptively answer all possible objections I can think of. So if you feel I'm wrong we can always discuss things in more detail if you like.

 

[wayneb64]

How do CNDRs become obsolete? They are the same strength as Disciples and are not obsolete until you get to Sup 11 and may even get their promotion before the Disciples do if you pick up a few Harmony or Purity levels.

I also don't 'rush' to Sup 11 as I often pick up a few side techs here and there. In fact my tech path more often than not promotes the CNDRs to True before I get T3 marines so that pack of True CNDRs is ready much earlier, and they see more battle so they are higher level.

I think making the Affinity units stronger compounds the problem already complained very much about, the narrow tech path to victory caused by the victory conditions. Making them OP forces the player to b-line for level 13 as they get super units as the double bonus.

 

[Acken]

Getting to 13 can be quick if you optimize. (as in using free tech ontop of a few free affinity points to hurdle your way into 13)
Getting to 15 requires 49 more Affinity points over 13.

At a minimum you need 1 more outer ring + leaf tech (but will likely need 2) which is 5740 sci each + the paths to reach them.

It's more like 40ish extra turn before you can start to build the victory wonder.

My argument would remain the same if it added 200turns to the game. It just make it longer, not play differently. Instead of making 6 cities spammed with academies you'll make 10, great.

I agree it would still be a good thing but I doubt it would really change much by itself.

Also your maths seems off based on my last game save. An outer affinity tech in my LP game is 3987science and I'm making 585bpt (when I reach lvl13). I dont need two outer to reach 15 I need an outer and an inner one taking a total of 10760 beakers (again based on that exact game). So 19 turns Sorry no 40 there, you'd have to go to 17 for that.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Why is over powered the only other option? Why is there nothing between 100% have to get them and it makes no difference? Now they're good for two levels and then they're the same in role as generics but don't cost resources. Same problem with the missile rover line. The ranger line more versatile and gets upgrades sooner so you can skip missile rovers entirely.
A unit that is called 'unique' should have something interesting going for it. If they didn't have graphics and a name a strange extra infantry offshoot from the main line.

I made a mod for this:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=381034501

And someone modded my mod to be more to there liking:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=383177753

Gives them all some uniqueness. Good times.

 

[legalizefreedom]

Bump it to 18 if you ask me.

 

[LORD ORION]

My argument would remain the same if it added 200turns to the game. It just make it longer, not play differently. Instead of making 6 cities spammed with academies you'll make 10, great.

I agree it would still be a good thing but I doubt it would really change much by itself.

Also your maths seems off based on my last game save. An outer affinity tech in my LP game is 3987science and I'm making 585bpt (when I reach lvl13). I dont need two outer to reach 15 I need an outer and an inner one taking a total of 10760 beakers (again based on that exact game). So 19 turns Sorry no 40 there, you'd have to go to 17 for that.

What turn are you on?

What are your affinity points at 13 -> 15 to jump from one tech? (You have the might affinity bonus?)

 

[LORD ORION]

Forgot to add... Affinity infantry units that use resources (CNDR, Battlesuit. Xenoswarm) should use no energy for maintenance since they are using resources. It should be a way to supplement your existing forces.

 

[Joch]

Any actual news on when the patch is coming out?

Trying to get as deep as I can in my current v1.01 game before it comes out. The first patch did a great job improving the game, really looking forward to patch 2.

 

[Ryika]

What turn are you on?

What are your affinity points at 13 -> 15 to jump from one tech? (You have the might affinity bonus?)

500 science on turn ~170-180 or so is quite normal for strategies that ignore the affinity bonus from might and go for (Settler ->) Industry -> Knowledge, with 6-7 big cities. Once you're at that point any amount of additional Affinity levels can be gotten rather quickly, so just delaying these wonders wouldn't really help.

The flawed mechanic that allows for this is the fact that academies can be spammed as much as you want - that's what needs to be fixed.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Maybe with this patch I can try BE again....maybe.

JosEPh