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How do CNDRs become obsolete? They are the same strength as Disciples and are not obsolete until you get to Sup 11 and may even get their promotion before the Disciples do if you pick up a few Harmony or Purity levels.

Gort made this chart a while back, comparing the initial release with the 1st patch (which we have right now):

W8lSszg.png


It's not that CNDRs become obsolete meaning useless. The problem is that if you want to have a "state-of-the-art" army (an army with the strongest troops) then you are better off building marines because they are much cheaper and just as effective until you get to Aff 12. Why build CNDRs for 55% more when the payout for your investment lasts such a short time (from Aff 4 to Aff 6)?

Hopefully this is something they will address in the patch. They don't have to take the initial CNDR all the way back to 40, but something like 30-32 would be nice I think, so justify building them at all.
 
Don't most people get at least Purity 2 for the health building? With just 2 more Purity you can get your True CNDRs at Aff 10, so I think that orange line in the chart is a bit misleading. Also picking up extra CNDRs before Aff 10 is cheaper than Disciples at that point.

Also when the 'cheatin' AI is heading your way with a horde, I want the best units I can for my defense because the strength 14 Marines just cannot hold the line.
 
Gort made this chart a while back, comparing the initial release with the 1st patch (which we have right now):

W8lSszg.png
Chart doesn't include the perks for two upgrades if infantry. A Sentinel could have +35% with two perks. A Brawler attacking alone could have as high as +55%.
The level 4 unique units just have to be better than the base power of level 6 infantry, and less than the modified power. A little odd that the unique unit becomes a general purpose unit while the generic unit becomes the specialized unit, but whateves'.
 
Don't most people get at least Purity 2 for the health building? With just 2 more Purity you can get your True CNDRs at Aff 10, so I think that orange line in the chart is a bit misleading. Also picking up extra CNDRs before Aff 10 is cheaper than Disciples at that point.
Yes the L4 UUs are good when they get upgraded. The issue is them at L4.
L4UUs are in a leaf tech (dead end) and require a strategic resources investment to get. So there is some sacrifice to get them. At the moment it's an "eh, why bother" option.

Also when the 'cheatin' AI is heading your way with a horde, I want the best units I can for my defense because the strength 14 Marines just cannot hold the line.

Well then you'd have to get the L4 UU for defense. You've argued that you shouldn't have to get the L4 affinity units to complete but here your saying you do anyway.
 
I'm really starting to wonder if my game is somehow broken, because I've not once been overwhelmed by an AI when I was prepared. Even on flat land marines do just fine when they're fortified and well positioned before the AI starts to hammer its head against you. To me it sounds a lot like you're a bit too intimidated by the AI and thus over-invest (if that's even a word) in defensive tech.
 
Yes the L4 UUs are good when they get upgraded. The issue is them at L4.
L4UUs are in a leaf tech (dead end) and require a strategic resources investment to get. So there is some sacrifice to get them. At the moment it's an "eh, why bother" option.

All affinity techs are leaf techs and how are they a sacrifice when you GET to L4 by researching Tactical Robotics?


Well then you'd have to get the L4 UU for defense. You've argued that you shouldn't have to get the L4 affinity units to complete but here your saying you do anyway.

Not sure where I argued I shouldn't have to get L4s to compete, the whole point I am arguing is that they are plenty valuable just as they are.

I'm really starting to wonder if my game is somehow broken, because I've not once been overwhelmed by an AI when I was prepared. Even on flat land marines do just fine when they're fortified and well positioned before the AI starts to hammer its head against you. To me it sounds a lot like you're a bit too intimidated by the AI and thus over-invest (if that's even a word) in defensive tech.

Your game is not broken, I just think we take different approaches to the game. I put all resources into my economy, getting a lot of 'side' techs before starting the affinity ladder. I will not research any affinity techs until I get the virtue bonus that grants extra affinity (Adaptive Sciences). This puts me well behind the Apollo AIs affinity wise. I also delay military build up as long as possible to not put any drag on my economy. So, it's inevitable I am going to get surprised by the AIs if there are any nearby.
 
500 science on turn ~170-180 or so is quite normal for strategies that ignore the affinity bonus from might and go for (Settler ->) Industry -> Knowledge, with 6-7 big cities. Once you're at that point any amount of additional Affinity levels can be gotten rather quickly, so just delaying these wonders wouldn't really help.

The flawed mechanic that allows for this is the fact that academies can be spammed as much as you want - that's what needs to be fixed.

1st: AHHH! Change your Avatar back...

2nd: Yeah, I can agree that Academies and AU need some adjustment... ;)

3rd: But I was more curious in assessing how going from 13->15 on 1 outer ring tech was achieved instead of 2. (I'm looking to make it 2 more outer ring techs before you can begin to build the wonder)

Regardless one of my assessments... at 15 your enemies will have enough time to assault you with Cobras, Redeemers and Dragoons.

At 13 you're the one with the final tank upgrades closing in on your artillery upgrade at 14 to flatten incoming enemies. *Minotaurs and Ambassadors are great at defense because they fire twice per turn, admittedly the Devastator kinda blows*
 
Your game is not broken, I just think we take different approaches to the game. I put all resources into my economy, getting a lot of 'side' techs before starting the affinity ladder. I will not research any affinity techs until I get the virtue bonus that grants extra affinity (Adaptive Sciences). This puts me well behind the Apollo AIs affinity wise. I also delay military build up as long as possible to not put any drag on my economy. So, it's inevitable I am going to get surprised by the AIs if there are any nearby.
I think most people delay affinity techs as much as possible, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the marine vs. unique unit discussion.

1st: AHHH! Change your Avatar back...
NO. One has to change their Harley from time to time.
 
All affinity techs are leaf techs and how are they a sacrifice when you GET to L4 by researching Tactical Robotics?
I've never not already gotten to level 4 before researching the UUs, which then put me at 5. Then by the time I've gotten some UUs built I'm at 6. Window closed.


Not sure where I argued I shouldn't have to get L4s to compete,
My mistake. You were referring to beelining 13.
the whole point I am arguing is that they are plenty valuable just as they are.

They have a value. As a short term, stepping stone unit. Their value does not reflect the special nature of the unit. Alien creatures, mechanic suits, and autonomous robots that require special resources and technology to build are supposed to be cool. If they switched it around so everything was the same with stats and affects but the generic unit was level 4 and the UU was level 6 and I would not be complaining. I have no problem with a generic unit being a stepping stone.
If you took everything you said and made it about a level 4 generic unit and a level 6 unique unit then I'd agree with everything you said.
 
I think most people delay affinity techs as much as possible, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the marine vs. unique unit discussion.


NO. One has to change their Harley from time to time.

You where saying you're never overwhelmed by the AIs, and on Apollo I almost always am. I was explaining why I don't start thinking about military until it's almost to late.

And I like the new Avatar.:thumbsup:
 
What turn are you on?

What are your affinity points at 13 -> 15 to jump from one tech? (You have the might affinity bonus?)

Read more carefully, I said 2 techs, but one cheaper was available. The totl value of these two techs and their prereuisites is 10760.

It's the normal T180 when you get at affinity 13.
 
How do CNDRs become obsolete? They are the same strength as Disciples and are not obsolete until you get to Sup 11 and may even get their promotion before the Disciples do if you pick up a few Harmony or Purity levels.

I also don't 'rush' to Sup 11 as I often pick up a few side techs here and there. In fact my tech path more often than not promotes the CNDRs to True before I get T3 marines so that pack of True CNDRs is ready much earlier, and they see more battle so they are higher level.

I think making the Affinity units stronger compounds the problem already complained very much about, the narrow tech path to victory caused by the victory conditions. Making them OP forces the player to b-line for level 13 as they get super units as the double bonus.

Your upgraded marines are going to have 2 perks that your CNDRs/battlesuits/xeno swarms do not have, immediately making them stronger than the unique units. Again, given you can start building them from the word go for cheaper there's really no reason not to spam them instead of waiting on unique units who are going to be inferior within a few dozen turns at most while sucking up your strategic resources.

The issue with making affinity units stronger, to my line of thinking, is not so much it encourages beelining techs (that's going to happen anyway with the current system where affinity is tied to science, and science is the only non-domination victory path for all intents and purposes) but that they don't have a good limiting factor in the game right now. Simply put strategic resources are too abundant and easy to come by for that to be an issue, especially with the game favouring sprawl. The design of the units doesn't help either. CNDRs are supposed to be this crazy strong defensive unit that's bad at going on the offensive but that's just fluff written in the encyclopaedia, and not something that actually exists in game terms to stop you from building a bunch of them and taking cities if you want to. Battlesuits are supposed to be some elite unit of very experienced troops who are presumably limited in number, but in game terms that never manifests as you can build as many as you have titanium for. Xeno swarms... well whatever they're xeno swarms, those I actually don't have much of a problem with as they more or less fill their role as cheap, expendable horde units although I feel they could be a little cheaper or a little stronger (or maybe both).

To my line of thinking there are two routes to take to buff CNDRs and battlesuits without reverting the game to launch state where you just spam your early affinity units and stomp everything in your path. One, add an artificial limiting factor to the game, whether that be by vastly increasing strategic resources required, or simply hard capping the number of the units the player can build one way or another. I dislike this option as, quite frankly, it feels lazy and unimaginative although it certainly could work. Two, add promotions that actually make the unit do what it's supposed to do in the fluff, while vastly increasing maintenance/production cost to discourage spamming the unit. So perhaps nerfing base combat strength of the CNDR while giving it a huge buff (like, 200-400% buff) to fighting near your cities/capital, or in your own territory so it actually fills it's role as a defensive unit might be a place to start, although I'd want to see an increase in maintenance cost so a player doesn't just spam the hell out of them and turtle/snipe cities and use them as super units. Makes the unit very useful in defending your territory, but stops the player from rushing them and going on a rampage. Battlesuits on the other hand could get a buff to their combat strength and promotions making them act kinda like tacnets/great generals in CiV, but also be made astronomically more expensive to build/maintain, while perhaps also having each battlesuit built make the the next battlesuit more expensive to build/purchase (kinda like national wonders increase in production based on number of cities in CiV) to keep the number of battlesuits on the field low. Just as an example of course, there are probably better ways to discourage spamming battlesuits, but that's the first idea that comes to my mind anyway. Something to see them be very useful to have on the field leading formations, but not making up the bulk of an army in general makes sense to me.
 
Read more carefully, I said 2 techs, but one cheaper was available. The totl value of these two techs and their prereuisites is 10760.

It's the normal T180 when you get at affinity 13.

I'm not trying to be belligerent, I honestly want to know the specifics.

You said 2 techs, I said 2 outer ring affinity techs (which is 4 techs, the branch and the leaf). Just miscommunication.
 
No unit balance?
No higher Affinity Victories?

Glad you are addressing many of the issues, but these also need to be addressed.
 
If bad wonders are the only thing stopping you playing the game might I suggest the Empowered Wonders mod?

There's also the auto-renewing of trade routes and the population cap on the same to prevent mid-late game from bogging down.

Or the possibility that one can actually call in a Siege Worm strike.

Or maybe he just wants to work canyon tiles. :)
 
I'd say the call worm strike should also destroy any fence in the city, buy they could buy a new one next turn. Now if the fence just kept them from crossing the line, then it would trap the worms inside...
 
I like this idea. The "Call Worm Strike" sabotages the fence and allows worms to get in, then reactivates the fence to keep them in.
 
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