New pitboss

[Caledorn]

Awesome, Caledorn, you are really bad admin, and a really big "jerk"... a good admin take in count all the players, don't just his friends... say that, you need found a permanent replacement to my civ, don't because we can't still destroy the REM's civ, actually i'm sure he is dead anyway, but because we are not playing in a game where the admin is incompetent...
And REM, you really dissapoint me, because you are cheater; you clearly know we don't move the troops, but you don't say a world about that, just take advantage of this, you not have sportmanship
About the other players, good game, sorry for you, is better for you try another admin, an unbiased admin. And take in count you are playing with one cheat player.

Best regards

PD: i suggest an impartial player, don't Caledorn, of course, take the saves and log in like admin, and see who is lying. Just for the records, i'm out anyway.

... Wouldn't it have been a lot easier, and more mature, to ask me to log in to check the unit placements in the previous turns, rather than to sink down to this level?

For the record I don't know REM, have never played with him, and the only time I've ever talked to him is this specific incident. So I have no idea where you get the idea that I favour him for any reason.

I am trying to find a solution that does as little damage as possible to all the other, non-involved, players. Sure, it's easy to reload the game, but why on earth didn't either you or your brother ask for a pause when your brother was able to log in and stay logged in for 26 minutes in the previous turn? Why didn't either of you come here and ask for a reload as soon as the turn flipped, instead of waiting until a situation has arisen and then start demanding a reload (where you then start to insult me when I am reluctant to follow your wishes because I am considering all the other players too)? How can you seriously expect that when you failed to both ask for a pause, and then to ask for a reload right after the turn flipped, that I will just reload the game to a point where nearly all the players will have to replay not only one, but two turns, no questions asked?

I am going to pretend your insults were never written, and assume that you are writing them in anger, and give you a second chance to state your case in a more mature manner.

 

[dick76]

Unpleasant incident, but I think that HBHR is right because it has done nothing wrong or dishonest. I really think you need to find a compromise whereby HBHR will continue to play. Maybe we should vote?

 

[2metraninja]

And? What we do now?

 

[Caledorn]

In my ruling post, I wrote a question at the very end where I asked if anyone has a major problem with my ruling. That question implied that my ruling was still open for debate.

Now, several people, especially those who have been making the most noise here, have stated that they will abide ny my ruling, even if they disagree. I find that is not the case, and that those people will not leave this matter until I make a ruling they are happy with. This undermines everything an admin is supposed to do, and it also is breaking the spirit of having a game admin to ask for a majority of the players to decide what the admin should rule. However: 2metraninja tells me that he has received PMs from players who think my ruling is unfair and wrong. Why haven't you stated so here in the thread, so I can modify my ruling, instead of telling someone else in secret?

Please, by all means go ahead and make a majority ruling on the matter if you want to do so among yourselves. But why involve me at all if you wanted to do that in the first place? Because I am making a ruling that you do not agree with?

Thankfully I have no problems dealing with the heat and insults this has generated towards me, nor do I take it personal if my ruling is deemed bad, as the main point is that the game must go on as soon as possible . But seriously, if you guys cannot keep this civil, I don't see the point of continuing this. So, for the final time, voice your opinion here in the thread, and make an argument of why (thus, no poll - I want consistent reasoning behind your opinion). There are three alternatives:

1. Do nothing. Let the game continue as now.
2. Reload to the beginning of this turn.
3. Reload to the beginning of the previous turn (and let hbhr declare war)

Realistically you are looking at the possibility of either losing hbhr or rem as a player, as both stand to grossly lose whatever the decision you make. And also you may be looking at players becoming so annoyed with all the rules discussion that hinders the game, so they may also quit. And all this are things I have taken into consideration, in addition to the fact that players who are not happy with the ruling may also quit.

 

[Caledorn]

I have reviewed the autosaves for Turns 100, 101 and 102. Sub did move units related to this in all these three turns, and while the move in T100 is not relevant to the point of being important, the moves in T101 and T102 are highly relevant. I will not go into the details to avoid giving away spoilers, but I can provide screenshots (and heck, even the savegames if someone wants to give a second opinion - just make sure it's not someone playing in this game) if necessary to show that the units were moved.

For sake of Turn vs year: T102 = 325BC, T101 = 350BC, T100 = 375BC

Sub claimed that units were not moved in T101, and that he would need a reload to that turn - but that is not correct information, as the units were moved in T101.

 

[2metraninja]

Man, stop playing it insulted child. I understand you might be sensitive person, but I start to think you are terrified by the idea that you might be wrong and take each and everything that claims this as a personal attack. Who attacks you and your personality and where?

Now to the point: Your ruling was a mess since the very beginning. You first stated there are no rules about what a double-move consists of. When I showed them to you, you said it is included in rule number 7. which is "Dont be a jerk" and started to explain what this "being a jerk" means over RB site. Then you decided to explain me how settler moves are handled at RB. When you see no one else is agreeing about settler moves, you say: "OK, no regulation on settlers" but you keep the regulation on out-of-war moving of units.

Later on you make the ruling and when I ask you if you at all took the time to look at the other side's story, you said you will do so later. How you ever make a judgement without looking on both stories? It happened that HBHR did moved units which you consider to be jerk move, but how did you issue the verdict before checking this? If it was not the case, were you going to go back on your words?

But anyway, even if HBHR did moved units on those turns, by the rules of this game as they were written he did not did a rule break. You dont simply change rules mid-game and announce them proudly. What if someone is not agreeing with those new rules? Does he have to live with that or quit the game?

I said I will accept the ruling in order the game to move on, but now we lost a player because of the ruling and we have the game stopped anyway. And nowhere you were elected for admin. You are to issue a ruling on the case as a host of the game, as we could not appoint SevenSpirits as admin. This ruling goes against the beliefs of at least few people, so it might be a good idea we to elect an admin who either follow the rules of the game, or propose beforehand how they to be changed so every player have a saying on it.

As an end result, we have a ruling how the game to proceed. And we are looking for a new player and an admin. If someone nominates you Cal as possible admin, you will have to get the approval of the players.

I will post about looking for replacement player and will ask few people if they are willing to be nominated as game admin. I encourage everyone else to make nominations for admin. 7 days from now, we will have a voting on admin. The one who gets 2/3 of the still alive players votes will act as admin from there on.

 

[sinimusta]

Wow, quite a lot of happened while I was away from PC. I'm still trying to catch up with the details but I have some practical questions.

First how do we proceed? If HBHR is going to be replaced, do we keep the game paused until that or does someone play still turns for them? It would give REM huge advantage if HBHRs troops just stopped moving for a couple of critical turns.

2nd, wasn't this game supposed to be paused during the ruling? Caledorn told that there would be no point playing any turns since there would be a reload so I haven't played.

3rd, Caledorn if you're using my autosaves for reloads, do I need to avoid logging in during ruling disputes like this?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

What is this? I don't come in here for a few days and suddenly here's two pages full of sh1tstorm? What happened?

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Sorry for missing everything, I have to sleep and do non civ stuff sometime.

Re Sub/HBHR - I went in as I said (I put a marker where your troops were on the turn I saw them to gauge how many turns they would arrive at my city by) and they have moved twice since I last saw them. The whole point of the disagreement is that I could not see where your troops had moved to/were last turn as you made your turn after me and then before the next turn, so I do not know where they were at the end of that turn. I am not 100% certain where and when they moved as I didn't see them for 2 moves, but they certainly seemed moved to me. If you had moved in turn rather than logging in the second the turn rolled then I may have been able to see where they were the turn prior to verify things. Also note that it wasn't yourself moving the units so maybe you got your wires crossed?

However I also now see Caledorn also has looked in and seen that the units HAD been moved like I suspected. I feel this kinda ends this argument then. But also as caledorn said, someone did spend near 30mins in game for the civ, and didn't choose to end the turn, then managed to log in the minute the turn rolled. Surely if there were any other moves to be made they could have been done then? This does look rather like you were very keen to move your units the instant of the turn, and could have logged in a few minutes before if there were further moves you wanted to make.

With regards to the admin issue, I thought there was a rule break and then asked for an admin ruling, and got a response. I never sought to hold up the game unfairly or get players kicked out. He ruled, and was even nice enough to put that ruling up for debate to try and please everyone. And I think that as should be pointed out, he is doing this out of his own free will and using a fair bit of his weekend to do so.

But with regards to the ruling, if sub/hbhr has moved all his units then I think a reload is not needed at all. Whilst I also do not want to lose a player (it will be a very good fight) I do not think that the best way to go about things is reloading for someone who shouts 'no reload, I quit', especially who only asked for a reload after an admin ruling, and who has moved all their units. This will surely cause an issue later on I feel.

As the ruling stands I agreed with it, but I only asked for a ruling, I didn't demand to be ruled in my favour or I would leave. However if the ruling had come back as there are no peace double moves as they are not illegal, you can be sure that I would have tried my hardest to play first as soon as the turn rolled. Then I believe we would be in the same situation as if we had complied with the ruling. I believe then HBHR would have thought this was unfair, and would have wanted a reload so he could declare in the first half as reading his posts he clearly also wants to be able to move first in the fight.


So as I see it we either:
a) do nothing, and have a clock race to see who can secure first move in the war, and likely HBHR will be upset if I manage to log in first and probably want to leave anyway
b) have and follow a ruling that HBHR clearly does not agree with and will need to be replaced

I leave out any reloads because with the admin verifying that the units have moved I do not think it is fair to issue a reload, either to the other players, the fact that he may edit his moves now or that we essentially being held to ransom for it.


Re Sina -

1) I agree, I would feel a little bad having a ton of troops on my border for a few turns. Needs to be paused until either HBHR or a player will play the turns.
2) Sorry, the unpause was from me when I assumed that a double move back would be an acceptable compromise, so I played the turn and let it continue.
3) It only creates one autosave file per player, so probably would be good if there is a disagreement in this thread to not log in until it is sorted.

Re Knodal - yes it has all kicked off here!

EDIT 2metra, I really believe that if there were no such thing as peace double moves ruled, and I played first before HBHR next turn, he would have asked for a reload, or to be first in the turn order, and we would be in the same situation again. The way I read his posts he assumed that by doing this he had claimed the first half of the timer without a war declaration, so I really think he believes in peace double moves existing too. But then, as I posted earlier, the whole point of this was to prevent this coming down to a clock race.

 

[2metraninja]

We cannot make assumptions on what HBHR would had said if you did the same thing to him, and most likely we will never know, as I think the guy is gone for good.

BUT! If he asked for a ruling on you moving twice before him, I doubt someone would had sympathize with this request.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Sorry, but i need reload to last turn... if not, REM is doing double move to me... because i don´t move my troops last turn (REM know i can DoW him last turn AND move my troops inside his borders, but i preffer lost this advantage to obtain first turn at war, but if this is not possible, y need to replay my las turn, because i can't finish it)

Best regards

I am not making assumptions. Here he is clearly stating that if I move before him he thinks that I am doing a double move to him. Whilst at peace. Therefore, he believes in peace double moves.

Although now we can add that to this that the admin has verified he has moved his units, and that 30mins were spent in game for that civ, and that sub managed to log in the second that the turn rolled to this turn...

 

[2metraninja]

Hmm... I had read this about the double-move before and did not gave it the meaning I see in it now.

Cal, you said units were moved, were those units the unit which matter - i.e. those on the front which can be seen by REM?

 

[2metraninja]

For me it is clear - either he keep it to the written rules - i.e. there cannot be a double-move without a war declared, or he dont. You cannot claim doublemove without recognizing there is such thing.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Hmm... I had read this about the double-move before and did not gave it the meaning I see in it now.

Cal, you said units were moved, were those units the unit which matter - i.e. those on the front which can be seen by REM?

No worries, it is hard to follow, but I cannot see it being meant in any other way. So I firmly believe that we would be in this situation that we are in now if I had just tried to move first next turn, and would have been down to a clock race, which I wanted to avoid...

 

[classical_hero]

I don't understand HBHR's beef with the ruling. If you are not at war then you can't double move, but if peaceful double moves aren't allowed, then he did that himself. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

I don't understand HBHR's beef with the ruling. If you are not at war then you can't double move, but if peaceful double moves aren't allowed, then he did that himself. It just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, thank you. It does seem to be a contradictory stance, which is why I cannot understand it. Clearly viewing civstats, with him never ending the previous turn and logging in the second that the turn had been played he was aiming to move twice before me 'to seal in his slot in the turn order', at least that is how I read it. However, I believe his turn order was sealed in the turn that I had visibility on his unit stack (I think 2 turns ago) and asked for a ruling.

HBHR
but in this championship, double move TWO turns BEFORE the turn you DoW is fine,
these appear to be the rules he is following

Actually this would be one move before war was declared, as he states that he will declare next turn (his units are in position to do so), so I think he has invalidated his argument there as well, but is really gaming the timer excessively in my eyes either way here.

 

[2metraninja]

Moving twice in a row 2 turns before you declare war are also OK in all the other sites I had played and also the current rules in this game.

The rules about double-moves as they are written:

Rules:

1. War double moves (for shorter double-moves or DM). No war double-moves are allowed. Game will be reloaded in case of a double-move. Here in red is what war double moves consist of:

1.1 Player A plays in turn X, then Player B plays after him in the same turn X and declare war to Player A. The turn switches and Player B plays before Player A.
1.2 Player A plays in turn X, then Player B plays after him in the same turn X without declaring war to Player A. The turn switches and Player B plays before Player A and declares war to Player A.
1.3 Player A and Player B are already in war. Player A plays first in turn X in the turn split. Player B logs in after him in turn X, then log off and before the turn advances to turn X+1, Player A logs in in to the game again.
1.4 Player A and Player B are in war. Player A plays second in the turn order, but he logs in before Player B.

2. Turn order and turn split. Once in war, there must be maintained a so called Turn split. Turn split is the part of the timer where you are supposed to do your moves. Normally, turn is split in two parts - first and second. But sometimes in complex wars, timer can be split in 3 or more parts. Say Player A and Player B are in war. Player A plays first in the turn split, then Player B plays, but after him Player C logs in and for whatever reason declares war to Player B. Then on the next turn, Player C must wait for Player B to play before he makes his moves. But because Player B must wait for Player A to play first, Player B is in the middle part of the turn split. Normally, half the timer makes a turn split, but when in war, players must be extremely cautious and play as early as possible to leave more time for their opponents to play their turns after them. Also, if the player who waits for his time to play misses for whatever reason his window for play, the game must be paused or there will be reload if the turn switch to X+1 without the player(s) in the second or third or whatever number miss their turns.

 

[2metraninja]

I have one question just out of curiosity - did you really saw his stack 2 turns ago advancing towards you?

 

[HBHR]

I have reviewed the autosaves for Turns 100, 101 and 102. Sub did move units related to this in all these three turns, and while the move in T100 is not relevant to the point of being important, the moves in T101 and T102 are highly relevant. I will not go into the details to avoid giving away spoilers, but I can provide screenshots (and heck, even the savegames if someone wants to give a second opinion - just make sure it's not someone playing in this game) if necessary to show that the units were moved.

For sake of Turn vs year: T102 = 325BC, T101 = 350BC, T100 = 375BC

Sub claimed that units were not moved in T101, and that he would need a reload to that turn - but that is not correct information, as the units were moved in T101.

I just login the pitboss, and capture evidence, just for the records... I have 7 elephant and three catapults in forrest near to REM borders, i don't move THIS units in turn 102, neither turn 101. Caledorn, can you send me the save of turn 101? since now i'm not playing this pitboss, i can see it without problem. Ican't upload files (perhaps i don't know how) but i can send the screenshots to any player at g-m-a-i-l perhaps?

And REM, don't you see this troops at side to your borders? awesome...

Edit: yooohoooo,finally, i can attach the jpg files...
Other players, yours conclusions

Best regards

 

[classical_hero]

Why did you not pause immediately after you logged in about that issue? You could have said something about it straight away, but you didn't do that.