New Raging Barbarians?

[Tielby]

As has already been noted, the increasing strength was unintended. Hope that helps. If not, you can always turn off Raging Barbarians. It's a challenge option, not turned on by default.

Nevertheless, FfH2 is purposely designed to be more difficult in the early game than vanilla Civ4 or BtS, which means you will encounter unlucky (i.e. unwinnable) starts more often. There are also several other good mods you can try, if FfH2 really displeases you.

In the future, if you believe the game is not operating as intended (as was the case this time), please submit a post to that effect in the Bugs Thread above. If you think the game IS working as intended, you are far more likely to get helpful advice or to raise player support for a change to the game if you keep a cool head when posting, even in response to other posts which you find offensive.

 

[Neomega]

I have to agree here, the barbarians are too damn powerful.

From what I see, a number of you play with either Barbarian World, or Raging Barbarians, or both. But most of us don't, and the sheer number of barbarians on Emperor or Immortal makes it almost unplayable without going into World Builder. The barbarians have gone from being a challenge to being downright oppressive.

Wait, you are saying they are too powerful, even when raging barbs is turned off!?

Barbarians are, and always have been a source of easy XP.... raging barbs just means more yummy XP soup. If you haven't figured that out yet, you really should play on lower levels until you have.

Also, god forbid you pop a lair, or you'll have a big bad and his four buddies ruin your civilization by turn 15. Is that good gameplay?

No it's terrible gameplay, so why would you do it? There is a simple answer to this. The AI has figured it out, maybe your "I" should too.

 

[Rystic]

Wait, you are saying they are too powerful, even when raging barbs is turned off!?

Barbarians are, and always have been a source of easy XP.... raging barbs just means more yummy XP soup. If you haven't figured that out yet, you really should play on lower levels until you have.

This is particularly an issue in multiplayer games. And where barbarians are sometimes an easy source of XP, it's rough having a Goblin Fort in the vicinity of your capital, especially if you have tiles you need to improve around it.

No it's terrible gameplay, so why would you do it? There is a simple answer to this. The AI has figured it out, maybe your "I" should too.

It's a spawn point for barbarians, and sometimes I need to work the tile it's on, obviously. And fortifying a unit on top is a wasted unit early in the game. You might not remember, back in the old days of Fall From Heaven, lairs could be crushed by moving a unit on them. Now, if I want to get rid of lairs early on, I risk ending my civilization.

 

[Neomega]

It's a spawn point for barbarians,

You call it spawn point, I call it training yard.

they are never on special resources, so your need to improve it early game is highly unlikely.

 

[Rystic]

You call it spawn point, I call it training yard.

they are never on special resources, so your need to improve it early game is highly unlikely.

What about the tiles around it? If it's in my territory, I need a warrior to escort any worker that gets near it. And it's worse if it's being defended and interrupting the worker every turn.

 

[King Flevance]

I much prefer having to explore them instead of just walking onto them and getting nothing. Popping goodies is a nice trade off, a fiend sounds scary but... man, a great prophet sounds lovely. I will take out a goblin fort because of the stupid archers. All you have to do then is park a unit on top of it. Same with a lair. You don't have to explore it. Hell, the AI almost refuses too. I like to open borders and go around their territory popping dungeons and stuff that their borders have engulfed yet they have failed to explore despite having more than enough units to take out.

Popping 3 Azers on turn 5 is your own fault. I know because I have done it - and my first instinct was not to blame the FfH team, it was "I knew better than that" translated "stupid me".

 

[Neomega]

What about the tiles around it? If it's in my territory, I need a warrior to escort any worker that gets near it. And it's worse if it's being defended and interrupting the worker every turn.

This is just getting more and more sad.

 

[Rystic]

This is just getting more and more sad.

What's wrong with my argument? Or are you just going to be insulting?

 

[Rystic]

One thing I think I should have mentioned, my entire argument comes from the point of view of someone who only plays Erebus maps, where it's possible to get pinned by lairs. Otherwise, I agree with both of you, barbarians aren't too bad, especially on a Pangaea map. That being said,

Popping 3 Azers on turn 5 is your own fault. I know because I have done it - and my first instinct was not to blame the FfH team, it was "I knew better than that" translated "stupid me".

Trust me, I don't pop lairs on turn 5. And I'm not blaming anyone of anything. What I'm saying is that when you start, if nearby lairs sometimes box you in and make getting the game off the ground annoying. For example, have you ever had a Goblin Fort south of you spawn units early on, chase around workers, get in the way of improvements, etc? There's no real way to get rid of those without immense risk. Not popping lairs just because they're nearby, but because you have to.

A few warriors can usually help this, but if you're flanked on three sides, you'll get pillagers from all directions and need a lot more early defenders. On an Emperor or Immortal game, that could give the computer a huge curve over you (given the advantages they already have). I'm not saying this is an issue every game, but I've seen it happen before.

I much prefer having to explore them instead of just walking onto them and getting nothing. Popping goodies is a nice trade off, a fiend sounds scary but... man, a great prophet sounds lovely. I will take out a goblin fort because of the stupid archers. All you have to do then is park a unit on top of it. Same with a lair. You don't have to explore it. Hell, the AI almost refuses too. I like to open borders and go around their territory popping dungeons and stuff that their borders have engulfed yet they have failed to explore despite having more than enough units to take out.

Goblin Forts are the early game killer, especially in multiplayer. Erebus maps are hard enough to get a satisfying start for everyone (usually 2 to 4 of us), one of these little bastards can ruin an an entire starting zone.

The core of my argument was that the mod had a problem with civilizations being wiped out in the first thirty turns if you popped a lair. I standby this. It would be nice if there was an option to set up lairs like they used to be, so that moving onto the tile removed them like animal lairs. That'd be great for LAN games, especially for my friends whose only experience with FFH comes from visits to my house.

 

[Neomega]

What's wrong with my argument? Or are you just going to be insulting?

I'm just going to stick to the latter from here on out with this conversation.

 

[Valkrionn]

First off, you shouldn't base an argument on a single map. Even if it packaged with the mod.

Second, I'm sorry, but the Erebus map is absolute, total crap. I despise it. It creates situations where a mechanic that works on standard maps, namely, Lairs and Barbs, are horribly unbalanced.

On a standard map, you'll occasionally have issues with lairs in your starting zone, but nothing like how they can pin you into a little one-city valley in Erebus. In normal maps, you can get a lot of barbs and occasionally be overrun; In Erebus, due to the way movement is channeled through these valleys, you can be on the receiving end of an unending stream of barbs.

Screw Erebus, use a different map. Personally, I use either PerfectWorld2, made by the same person who made Erebus (Guess he was just having a bad day, there. ) or ErebusContinent, adapted from a map made by him. MountainCoast is a good one too.

 

[Tielby]

A few warriors can usually help this, but if you're flanked on three sides, you'll get pillagers from all directions and need a lot more early defenders. On an Emperor or Immortal game, that could give the computer a huge curve over you (given the advantages they already have). I'm not saying this is an issue every game, but I've seen it happen before.

Yeah, but think of the sense of accomplishment you get when you end up winning under such adverse conditions.

And, I could be wrong, but I think Neomega's point was that having to give workers their orders again every turn while they're working within sight of the lair or fort is a pretty small inconvenience. Having those workers accompanied by warriors is, again, an opportunity for XP gain. The fact that that warrior is stuck on guard duty instead of doing something more entertaining in the early game can be considered the trade-off for my first point, the sense of accomplishment when you don't let that stop you from crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of their women. (But you can't expect to be able to do that every time, of course.)

 

[Rystic]

First off, you shouldn't base an argument on a single map. Even if it packaged with the mod.

Second, I'm sorry, but the Erebus map is absolute, total crap. I despise it. It creates situations where a mechanic that works on standard maps, namely, Lairs and Barbs, are horribly unbalanced.

On a standard map, you'll occasionally have issues with lairs in your starting zone, but nothing like how they can pin you into a little one-city valley in Erebus. In normal maps, you can get a lot of barbs and occasionally be overrun; In Erebus, due to the way movement is channeled through these valleys, you can be on the receiving end of an unending stream of barbs.

Screw Erebus, use a different map. Personally, I use either PerfectWorld2, made by the same person who made Erebus (Guess he was just having a bad day, there. ) or ErebusContinent, adapted from a map made by him. MountainCoast is a good one too.

I've been using Erebus so long, it'd be weird to switch it up. When I entered this argument, I was honestly thinking in the mindset of "lairs can pin you, and are potentially game breaking". Coupled with the fact barbarians are funneled into your territory, you're right, Erebus maps do seem horribly balanced.

I've never tried a Perfect World, ErebusContinent, or MountainCoast. How are barbarians on those maps? Are lairs nearly as game influencing?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

ErebusContinent is THE mapscript for FFH2 imho. it's still flavourful, it does not involve multiple continents that the AI doesn't cope well with, and it doesn't cause weird mechanics due to "maze-like" mountain ranges

remember that FFH2 was designed to work on any mapscript, which basically means un-weird mapscripts. so Erebus is actually screwing up how the mod is SUPPOSED to play.

 

[Valkrionn]

I've been using Erebus so long, it'd be weird to switch it up. When I entered this argument, I was honestly thinking in the mindset of "lairs can pin you, and are potentially game breaking". Coupled with the fact barbarians are funneled into your territory, you're right, Erebus maps do seem horribly balanced.

I've never tried a Perfect World, ErebusContinent, or MountainCoast. How are barbarians on those maps? Are lairs nearly as game influencing?

Right. It's those two things specifically that cause me to dislike it so much... Otherwise the valleys would be a bit strange but could be lived with.

Barbs on the first two there are manageable in RifE... And that's with strengthened barbs and vastly strengthened animals. Though the Minotaur is a bit much currently and is being hit with the nerf stick. Part of why I've been working on a leash mechanic.....

I'm not sure how they behave in MountainCoast, haven't played it for a while. Love ErebusContinent too much.

 

[Jarrema]

ErebusContinent is SO GOOD that I cannot believe it
it is surely "default FfH map" for me. And I think, that on this map lairs are not such a problem

 

[Rystic]

I'm going to give Erebus Continent a shot this weekend. It sounds pretty cool.

 

[Breunor]

Just for the record, I do really enjoy Erebus but I do agree that a bad start can be tough here.

One nice aspect fo Erebus, however, as opposed to say Pangaea, is that it can be very good for builders or to try to get culture victories; sometimes it gives the 'late blooming' civs an edge relative to the crowded maps that favor early blooming civs.

I think the game is best when you play around with different settings and learn how to adapt your strategies.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[dommain]

I think bandits and pirates that stay outside the boarders would be interesting, They could have a chance to capture any unit and hold it hostage like the trap that hold people in same spot (with a limit against heroes) that you would have to pay based on its level and how strong it is. After a period of time the unit that was captured could become a bandit or pirate if it was not payed for (automatically returned to own territory if paid to keep it from recapture).

*spelling