New Succession Game

I notice that the Hittites finished the Pyramids at Hattusas in 1025 BC. Yay! Free granaries for all towns in the future sounds nice.

Interesting: the Hittites lack horses.

Let's not hook up our second horses, because the Hittites will demand it. It's about the only thing we have that would be valuable to them. Let's not gift them 3-man chariots! But if we're ready for a war, then yes, hook it up, and hope for that demand.

They can't demand it until there's a traderoute between the two capitals. But you are right, no need to connect it.

Preturn
Change a whole bunch of things. Change the forbidden palace build to 003Palenque for two reasons. 009Calakmul is empty at the moment and there are no troops busting fog anywhere near it. The risk of it getting sacked is very high. 003Palenque can finish the FP much faster too (23 turns vs 57) and is protected from barbs on all sides. 003P has a barracks though so that will be wasted for a while.

002Wheat City: catapult->settler. It's size 7 already. We don't need cities that big during the REX phase of the game. We would need to keep the lux slider too high in order to keep the citizens content. It has a barracks too so it definitely shouldn't be building catapults.

003Palenque: chariot->forbidden palace. I never ever build any chariot units in my solo games. I think they are one of the worst units in the whole game. Yes, they can be upgraded to horses but do we really want to spend 30 gold per upgrade this early when we need all the gold for research? A 1/1/2 unit is no good for fighting anybody either.

009Calakmul: forbidden palace->barracks (3 turns). It has enough shields to build some javelin throwers.

006Ivory: is building a worker but is only at +6 food. I give 002Wheat's second wheat tile to it for +7 food (3 turn growth).

007Golden Mountain: catapult->spearman. We don't need cats yet when we are lacking troops to protect our settlers.

008Quirigua: warrior->javelin thrower. It has a barracks and is making enough shields despite the corruption.

Why do we have two veteran spears sitting in our core towns? They should be in our border towns or escorting the settlers.

Some worker tasks seem a bit strange to me. There are two workers irrigating unroaded FP tiles near 011Kaminasomething. I would definitely build roads first to connect the town. That allows us more options of moving troops quicker where they are needed. This is especially true when working tiles next to cultural borders. If any barbarians come, the roads allow us to move troops to protect them and they are able to fortify as well. And road builds are faster than irrigating/mining too so there's less chance of losing worker turns because of having to move to safety. Also, we are expanding that way so the roads speed up our settlers as well.

One worker is mining a hill next to 004gold hill when there's an unimproved grass tile next to it that the town could use. A mined hill only gives you 2 shields in despotism and takes a lot of worker turns. Yes, it does have gold too but having a citizen working that tile means slower growth which we don't want. I cancel the worker's orders (it had 7 turns left) and move it to the grass tile.

Another worker is mining a hill near 001Capital and 002Wheat. I don't see any reason why either town would need that right now. Cancel those orders too (8 turns left).
 
IBT
Hittites kill one barb
007GM: spear->barracks
The Greek's finish Oracle at Sparta

Turn 1: 975 BC
Nothing much. Send out a lot of troops to bust the fog.

IBT
001CC: settler->settler
004GH: curragh->curragh
010Lazapa: warrior->curragh

Turn 2: 950 BC
What to do with the settler in the jungle? The only reason to send any settlers there rather than the east was the silks. It will most likely be a border town with the Dutch so CxxC is important. I'll go with Daeron's blue dot since it's CxxC with both 004GH and 005Silk. We should get as many towns in the east as possible. They will be at least somewhat productive. The jungle towns would all be rubbish for a long time.

003Palenque is now at size 7 and is unhappy even with 30% lux. I'll hire one scientist rather than raise it to 40% just for one town.

IBT
009Calakmul: barracks->jav
The Egyptians complete the Mausoleum Of Mausollos at Memphis

Turn 3: 925 BC
Decide to build one curragh at 004Ivory so that it has a chance to grow and work better as a workerfactory.

Found 012Securing Silks. It's an absolutely worthless town so set its only citizen to a scientist and start building a catapult. We'll have a road connection there soon so the catapult won't be stranded despite being surrounded by nothing but jungle and marsh.

IBT
002Wheat City: settler->jav
The Dutch are building the Great Wall so they have construction as well.

Turn 4: 900 BC
A suicide curragh in the west has now survived two turns on ocean and spots yellow borders so it's got to be Egypt. If it can survive one more, we'll get contact.

IBT
The Hittites are also building the Great Wall.
One curragh sinks but it's not the one close to Egypt!

Turn 5: 875 BC
We are now on a coast next to Egypt but don't spot any of their guys so no contact yet. There's a barb galley a couple of tiles south of us so it will attack on the next IBT.

Eastern fogbusters:
fogbusters.jpg


Send the eastern curragh to the great unknown.

IBT
001CC: settler->settler
006Ivory: curragh->worker (3 turn worker factory now ready)
Eastern curragh sinks
Curragh next to Egypt gets attacked but survives! An Egyptian worker walks by and we now have contact! They are a monarchy btw.

Turn 6: 850 BC
Make this trade:
trade.jpg


Turns out that neither the Dutch or the Hittites have currency yet. We are now 3 turns away from it so with some luck more trades coming up.

The only iron nearby is under the warrior in the east. I'll send one of our settlers to claim it.

iron.jpg


We'll have the silks hooked up in 6 turns.

Now that we have contact with the other landmass, I'll change the remaining curragh builds to something else.

IBT
011Kaminal: warrior->warrior
The Egyptians complete the Hanging Gardens at Elephantine

Turn 7: 825 BC
Meet Persia! Make this trade:

persiatrade.jpg


Make another trade too, not that we really need it but it's still one tech closer to the middle ages.

persiatrade2.jpg


Found 013 Tulum

Hire some scientists and can therefore get currency next turn.

IBT
Currency->code of laws

Turn 8: 800 BC
Found 014 Iron Hill next to the iron. We'll get it connected soon.

Make this trade with Cleopatra

currencytrade1.jpg


And this with the Hittites

currencytrade2.jpg


We are now in the middle ages and are down only the republic (the Dutch and the Hittites) and monarchy (Egypt and Persia) but monarchy we don't even want or need.

Try to barter for the republic but it's too expensive so we'll have to research it on our own as expected. It takes 16 turns on 70% although we can't keep that up for long.


IBT
006Ivory: worker->worker
008Quirigua: horseman->horseman (should be changed to a swordman one we have iron hooked up)
009Calakmul: javelin thrower->jav (also should be changed to a sword)

Turn 9: 775 BC
Our southern suicide curragh spots a coastline but would need to survive two more turns to make it there safely.

IBT
001CC: settler->settler
005Silk: warrior->catapult
The Dutch complete the Great Lighthouse in Amsterdam
Southern curragh sinks

Turn 10: 750 BC
Both the Dutch and the Hittites now have currency and are in the middle ages.

Here's the map with suggested next towns. The blue dot has a settler on it already. The next settler (which is between 002 and 011 now) should go to green. The pink one should come after that. There's a Dutch boat on its way from the west so they might mess this one up.

Spoiler :
750bc.jpg


The next player can experiment with the four turn warrior+settler factory if he wants. The only way I see it working is this:
Turn 1: go for 10 shields and +4 food (warrior)
Turn 2: +6 food, 7 shields plus 2 more on the IBT when it grows to size 6
Turn 3: +5 food, 10 shields
Turn 4: +5 food, 10 shields plus one more on the IBT

We'll soon have iron connected though (and therefore can't build any more warriors) so I wouldn't bother with that too much.

Silks will be connected in 2.
Iron will be connected in 6 (or less if we send more workers there)
Forbidden palace in 12.
Republic in 17 with a slight deficit.

We probably won't be ready for war until we get republic so we should wait until that. We could then start our golden age and kick some Hittite arse. Build lots of swords and catapults. We can build the libraries during the golden age. I wouldn't build any horsemen or javs personally since swords are much better. We have one jav already and that should be enough.
 

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Wow, now that's what I call progress. Good to see we beat the Dutch and Hittites to Currency. And it looks like the Lighthouse is not going to allow the Dutch to make contacts on their own so we can broker techs for a bit more. :)

Just one question, did the curragh near Egypt get killed on the last IBT? It doesn't show anymore.
 
You are right about the curragh. Another barb galley got it (it was already yellow after defeating the first one). Luckily it survived long enough to get us two new contacts.
 
So those curraghs were a waste of shields, huh? :p

I like a player who explains why he does things! I haven't looked at the save closely yet, but I believe this was a very good set, and this is my 'got it'; no need to slap up the roster again, Own.
 
One thing you might want to try is to get monarchy from Egypt/Persia and use it to get republic from the Hittites/the Dutch. That would save us a lot of time.
 
One thing you might want to try is to get monarchy from Egypt/Persia and use it to get republic from the Hittites/the Dutch. That would save us a lot of time.
In a game of my own I would have gone straight for Monarchy as a government, since it was easier to get that. As research of Republic was already underway, I stuck to that.
Here are my turns:

IBT: Mursilis complains about a warrior of ours near Harran.

730BC:
Wheat City: Jav Thrower > Horse
Golden Mountain: cat > cat
Quirigue, upon growth, gets a scientist.

IBT: Egypt completes the Temple of Artemis in Thebes.

710BC:
Ivory: worker > worker
Settle Pixie Dust near Hittite border.
Switching Silk and Lazapa to workers, because upon growth those towns have not much to work.
The silk luxury is now connected, so lux goes down and science up, although it shaves only 2 turns off of Republic.


IBT: Netherlands complain about a warrior of ours.
Arabia completes the Great Library in Mecca.
The Hittite city of Ugarite completes the Great Wall; that must have been a cascade.
Rotterdam completes the Statue of Zeus.

690BC:
Gold Hill: barracks > horse
In seperate places I'm blocking a Hittites settler pair and a Dutch settler pair with warriors, to keep the space open for our own settlers.

670BC:
Capital: settler > settler; because regular warriors are not what we really need in Republic, I haven't really explored the option of the combo build.
Starting to clear some jungle with 2 workers near Gold Hill; better to use those worker turns in the core than in completely corrupt terrain, and without clearing jungle Gold Hill will be stuck at size 4 or 5 or so.

IBT: Netherlands boots our warrior. At least he comes out where we can take him home.

650BC:
Wheat City: Jav Thrower > settler; Wheat City is at size 7 again, and as we're heading for a period of anarchy, we can better build some settlers.
Calakmul: Jav > Jav
Iron is now connected, but I'm not changing any builds.
Settle Eastern Tip; this gets rid of all the fog of war south of that northern marsh there.

630BC:
Quirigua: horse > horse
Settle Mayapan. that's the orange dot that I had projected. A bit tight with Palenque, but Palenque has got so much space east of it, so it should be alright.

IBT: Netherlands are up Feudalism.

590BC:
Capital: settler > settler
Ivory: worker > worker

IBT: The Netherlands declare war! just like that? Oh, thanks.
Orange warrior against spear in Tulum > spear wins.
Persia enter the middle ages and draw Monotheism.

570BC:
I'm deciding to attack the Dutch warrior + settler in the jungle, because I have a few warriors there. The more we attack the Dutch, the easier it'll become to sign peace again.
warrior against warrior > we lose, not even taking a hitpoint.
warrior against warrior > we lose, not even taking a hitpoint, promoting the Dutch warrior.
I'm disbanding a conscript warrior of ours near the dutch border, because we'll just lose him.
A settler, on the way to some jungle spot, I'm taking back, bacause it's too dangerous there.

IBT: Approaching Dutch warriors near Silk.
The Dutch settler pair that I have attacked settles Harlingen.

550BC:
Silk: worker > catapult
Kaminaljuyu: catapult > catapult
A couple of attacks against Dutch stray units in the north:
Our horse against a warrior > win;
Our vet warrior against reg warrior > win.

It's Silk that's most under threat:
Front.jpg

Republic is coming in in 3 turns or something, and is still unknown on the other continent. Perhaps we can make a trade for Monotheism with Persia, and with that it will be easier to sign peace with The Netherlands. Both Hittites and Netherlands have Feudalism, so we can perhaps get that in a peace trade for Monotheism.
With The Netherlands up Feudalism and having the Statue of Zeus, a prolonged war would not be in our interest.
 
Ouch. War with the Dutch is not what we really wanted here but given our lack of good troops it was inevitable that either them or the Hitties would declare war eventually. Good thing we managed to build roads between the jungle towns before the war started.

Now that we have iron connected, I wouldn't build any more horses or javs. Horses are no good in the jungle anyway and I'd much rather have a 3/2/1 unit vs a 2/2/1 one (even though the latter one can enslave). Catapults are important now as well so that our losses won't be too great.

We will definitely want peace with the Dutch as soon as possible though. We can't go on the offence anytime soon and their nearest towns would be pretty much useless to us anyway. We want to hit the Hittites, not the Dutch. Too bad about the Great Wall too though - we need more catapults now in order to break through the Hittite defences. One positive thing is that they have no resources from what I can see so that will make it easier.

In a game of my own I would have gone straight for Monarchy as a government, since it was easier to get that.

Why is this? I can't think of one single reason why monarchy would be better than republic in a game like this. In an always war game, yes, but not here. Republic is by far the best type of government in a normal game.

Starting to clear some jungle with 2 workers near Gold Hill

One thing to keep in mind is takes less worker turns to clear marsh than jungle as far as I know. I thought about sending a worker to clear a marsh tile next to the volcano but since there's a chance of an eruption, I decided to start mining that gold hill instead.

A settler, on the way to some jungle spot, I'm taking back, bacause it's too dangerous there.

Why did you send the settler that way anyway? Surely there are some spots in the east that are still available.

Once republic is in, we probably don't want to revolt right away. We want peace with the Dutch first.

One thing the next player would probably want to do is to send one unit on top of the roaded hills tile between 005Silk and 017Mayapan or else the core towns might lose the silks and start whining.
 
I am also curious why you decided to found 015Pixie Dust 1SE of my blue dot. The blue dot was CxxC from 009, 013 and the yellow dot which was on a river and on a hill (for 50% extra defence). This one is on a much worse spot in my opinion even though you get the 10 extra shields from the forest chop.

Edit: and do we really want to found a town 2NW of 006Ivory? It would increase the distance corruption of our other core towns. There are at least four other spots in the east that I would much rather settle.

Edit2: we'd better start moving the javelin throwers in our core towns towards the Dutch. We'll be seeing a lot of their troops shortly and even though fighting them with a JT would mean a despotic golden age, we don't have much choice here. This is demigod and not regent.
 
Mein Gott in Himmel. I come back from a round of golf and two sets have already been played. I was getting ready to write "Awesome set Salarakas," but then I scrolled down and saw that there was more. Both sets have brought us lots of progress.

I don't mind war the with the Dutch. War happiness is a good thing. We can hold them off until they're willing to talk.

I really, really don't like the red dot on Salarakas' map for a settling spot. We're spacing our cities close together, so it'd be nice for some breathing room. Those hills and desert will not be wasted, since they are all workable by some city, and I hate settling on a hill, because hills are my favorite tiles.

Edit: By the way, I don't "got it" in that I have the save, but I got it in that I recognize that I am up and will play soon, probably tonight.
 
A war at an inconvenient time, what a shocker. Looks like we need to get some Swords and Catapults built fast, and then burn several Dutch cities to get a peace treaty. Great news on the exploration front, 2 contacts isolated from our others is wonderful, getting caught up in tech is wonderful.
 
I really, really don't like the red dot on Salarakas' map for a settling spot. We're spacing our cities close together, so it'd be nice for some breathing room. Those hills and desert will not be wasted, since they are all workable by some city, and I hate settling on a hill, because hills are my favorite tiles.

This is another thing I don't understand. In order to even get the tiles within our cultural borders, we would have to build a library somewhere. 011 Kamisomething is the only town that a) is not corrupt enough to justify a library b) would fill the gap. It is extremely food heavy though so building a library there would take ages. Also, the other towns are so corrupt that working all those hills (yes, there are six hill tiles connected) wouldn't be that great. Would it really be that bad to lose a tiny bit of production (1 shield in a non-despotic goverment to be exact)? If it was right in our core, I might understand you point of view. Now I just simply don't. It's like saying you should never ever ever ever ever settle on top of a bonus grassland tile even though that town would be 95% corrupt. That's just silly in my opinion.
 
This is another thing I don't understand. In order to even get the tiles within our cultural borders, we would have to build a library somewhere. 011 Kamisomething is the only town that a) is not corrupt enough to justify a library b) would fill the gap. It is extremely food heavy though so building a library there would take ages. Also, the other towns are so corrupt that working all those hills (yes, there are six hill tiles connected) wouldn't be that great. Would it really be that bad to lose a tiny bit of production (1 shield in a non-despotic goverment to be exact)? If it was right in our core, I might understand you point of view. Now I just simply don't. It's like saying you should never ever ever ever ever settle on top of a bonus grassland tile even though that town would be 95% corrupt. That's just silly in my opinion.
We're talking about first and second ring cities, so every city near red dot will be a productive city one day. It would not be that hard for a first or second ring city to build a library. And adding another city adds more rank corruption with little benefit in addition to taking up the hill and other tiles assuming that we'll let it grow past size one. When we reach the industrial age, do we want such close placement in our core? Do we want to have to build two factories to get all of those tiles to produce shields at 150% or just one? I'm not a big fan of crowding cities in the core.

About our GA, is everyone in favor of trying to not initiate our GA yet? I think that that's a good idea. Our GA could be just the thing when we become a republic that will let us start to run away with the game.

TheOverseer714 said:
getting caught up in tech is wonderful.

Tech holes are never as bad as they seem.
 
In my solo games and in the early parts of the game, I couldn't care less about what would be best during the industrial age. If you start thinking like that, you would only go for CxxxxC city placement since you get hospitals and can grow to size 20 and use all the tiles in your fat cross.

What we should focus on is short to mid turn gain even though we might lose something in the long run. Once we get to the industrial age and factories, we will most likely be in the mopping up stage of the game and it wouldn't matter at all what we do with our core towns anyway.

As for the GA, normally I would hold of until we get to republic but once you look at the save, you might change your opinion. Our towns threatened by the Dutch are extremely light on troops while we have at least three javelin throwers in our mid or eastern towns where they do us no good. I don't believe we have any swords yet even though we have iron connected. Horsemen are almost useless in that terrain so they should mostly focus on patrolling our shores and keeping an eye on the Dutch galleys.

It's really up to you to decide though. Play a few turns and then go either way.
 
Why is this? I can't think of one single reason why monarchy would be better than republic in a game like this. In an always war game, yes, but not here. Republic is by far the best type of government in a normal game.
I'm not really in favour or against any government in a normal game, so I would usually pick what comes up soonest. I do want to leave Despotism as soon as possible. I would even consider switching twice, I once started a thread after I had switched twice in a game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301422
Monarchy gives good early strength. Republic is better later, but you can make a nice early coup with Monarchy, which can easily weigh up against the disadvantage of having to make a second switch.
I don't think I've ever researched Republic or Monarchy myself. My only experience with researching Republic was with 2 SG's; SGFN05 and SGFN06, and in both games it was not a success. It would be nice to see it work out once, but I've never seen it. I try to avoid researching optional techs, unless they give a good trading perspective.
One thing to keep in mind is takes less worker turns to clear marsh than jungle as far as I know. I thought about sending a worker to clear a marsh tile next to the volcano but since there's a chance of an eruption, I decided to start mining that gold hill instead.
Yes, that was my consideration as well for clearing the jungle before the marsh.
Why did you send the settler that way anyway? Surely there are some spots in the east that are still available.
We had claimed the east in the sense that no AI would settle there anymore, but the AI was still sending settlers to the jungle. To take as much space away from the AI is an object for me when sending out settlers.

I was surprised that the Dutch declared out of the blue. They're usually a peaceful tribe and there was still land to settle. The Hittites were closer to them, so I would have found it more likely they were the ones that got Dutch on their neck. I know they had a better relationship with each other, but attitude has sometimes little to do with the chance to get a declaration of war.

Yes, I would want to not use our Javs yet. I was almost using one against a warrior by mistake, but luckily I also saw that 5 tiles further away there was a horse available. That's the advantage of horses: mobility.
In a small number of turns the Dutch will be willing to talk again.

Sorry, it'll have to be tomorrow for me to add someting to the dotmap discussion.
 
Since our goal is to keep this war short, I'd definitely hold off on the GA. In my limited experience with Civ, all the times I had the Dutch as a neighbour they declared right at the start of the middleage without resources as a goal, so I'm not too surprised here.

Since the Hittites lack both iron and horses at this time. I won't be surprised if they'll make some sort of move soon and I doubt it'll be against the Dutch. If they do declare against the Dutch, it would be perfect for us to make peace with the Dutch and declare on the Hittites. But considering that they are more likely to come for us, we should make sure we don't leave our borders with the Hittites too low on troops.

It also looks like they've only recently got their iron hooked up. Which means maces and swish mercs will come in streams instead of stacks.
 
I've found that going Republic is usually the right move, Monarchy is not that good a government for money or research. I'd almost rather stay despo a bit longer than switch twice, and getting stuck in Monarchy in a research oriented game is bad. I almost always research Republic, because the AI values it so highly, and it's too good to not use, unless doing AW.
 
Pre-turn- Nothing to change except lowering SCI to 70%. We're in good shape.

IBT- Dutch troops approach.

1. 006 worker > worker. 007 cat > cat. 009 horse > horse. I found 018 Kabah. Horse kills a Dutch warrior and promotes [1-0].

IBT- A Dutch warrior kills ours [1-1].

2. 001 horse > rax. 003 FP > horse. SCI is lowered to 50%. After bombardment, three Dutch warriors are killed [4-1].

IBT- Some more Dutch units appear. We learn Republic, and I immediately revolt.

3. 001 riots, and I scroll through to prevent all other riots except 003, because I can't do so without starving it. 015 cat > cat (via chop). Egypt gives us Feudalism, 78g, and 11 gpt for The Republic. Feudalism and The Republic get us Monotheism, 46g and 1 gpt from Persia. I move troops around to best prepare for the Dutch.

IBT- We see a Dutch ACav.

4. Palenque starves, but there was nothing to be done unless we wanted to risk a barracks. A warrior and archer fall to our horsemen [6-1]. 009 needs a taxman.

IBT- Dutch ACav dies on our spear [7-1].

5. I found 019 Ake.

IBT- Nothing, really.

6. The Dutch will talk. Palenque sadly starves again, but that was expected. I accept peace and Engineering in exchange for Monotheism. A bunch of cities get their sad on because there's no more war, so I hire more specialists.

7. As expected, Palenque starves.

8. I sell Persia Engineering for 196g and 36 gpt.

9. We are now a republic. I MM accordingly. I disband all useless former MPs that are just costing us money, but I kept veteran warriors since they can upgrade to MDIs. I also raise lux tax to 30% because we no longer have MPs. Our current treasury is 530g, and our income is 111 gpt. I change a lot of builds to marketplaces.

10. 016 worker > treb.

nsg350bcpic.jpg


I took our focus off of military for this turnset to get our republic set up, but as soon as the markets finish, we should get back on building our forces up. :hammer: time is coming soon.

Lux could be lowered one notch, but two cities would need specialists. I don't know which is a better option; my instincts tell me higher lux though. I'll leave it up to the next player.

I think that staying with 0% research is best. We've got enough cash to buy techs when there's a trading opportunity, and that's all we need. We need markets no matter what for happiness, and even if we did research, we couldn't go full blast all the time, and we'd want markets for when we can't maximize research. We're not scientific, so building libraries in addition to markets would be hard, and researching without libraries is pretty inefficient.

Daeron's up.
 

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Nice one to get peace so quickly and without taking barely any damage from the Dutch.

Interesting how you're building marketplaces first rather than libraries. There's only three luxes on our continent so the happiness boost will be limited even when we control all three. I wouldn't even think of going 0% research here but rather go full steam towards chivalry for knights. They would sure come in handy with the second war against the Dutch. Libraries would also help us keep captured towns instead of having to raze them but I'll guess we'll just have to starve them and hope that not too many will flip.

Daeron: now that the REX part of the game is over, be sure to let our core towns grow to size 7 for the better unit support. We will still want some settlers to fill any gaps but our core towns should all be getting bigger and build maces.

As for the workers - be sure to build roads towards the Hittite towns before we start the next war. It will speed up our offence and our reinforcements will get there quicker as well.
 
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