New Succession Game

[Own]

Longbows are weak. Good tactics will eliminate their attack power, and then they just become 1-defense leader fodder.

Roster-
Own
Overseer
Daeron- up
Salarakas
Optional

If you're getting itchy, Daeron, go ahead and play; don't wait for discussion. Do what you think is the right move. Hell, even start the war if you think it's the time.

 

[Optional]

It would be possible now to buy Invention from the Hittites for Monotheism and 460 gold, but no good opportunities for selling it on to the other continent. I think I would still do this deal, because if the Hittites get Monotheism next, Invention will become much more expensive. 460 gold seems not too bad for a tech we haven't invested a beaker in, and we're making 167 gpt.
A question: I see we can buy Incense from the Dutch for 15 gpt + 13 gold.
That third lux should allow us to lower our lux from 30% to 20%, adding 21 gpt to our treasury immediately. Would that not be a wise decision?
It looks like you're leaving border towns completely open, Overseer. That could be a good tactic to invite a declaration of war from the Hittites. I would also hook up those second horses now.
I would probably let Quirigua make some units as well; a market is not that beneficial to a town that just makes 8 beakers and without good growth possibilities.

No need to make a very detailed turnlog here, Overseer. It's clear hardly anything happened.

 

[Salarakas]

I can't look at the save right now.

I am hesitant to make resource/lux trades with civs we don't have direct road trade route with before the tech that allows trades via sea/ocean tiles (magnetism?). If our only trade routes with the Dutch at the moment are a) road route via the Hittite lands and b) coastal route between two harbours, the route can easily be broken when we go to war with the Hittites. The road connection would be severed immediately and it only takes one boat to break the coastal route as well. Or is there a road connection through the jungle already to the Dutch towns? In any case, I don't feel we desperately need another lux at the moment.

Again, I can't look at the save but I would spend our excess cash in getting the missing techs and then start full speed research towards military tradition for cavalry. Have we decided to keep on going with this 0% research? I feel that it only slows us down.

In any case, let's not waste too much time anymore - let's start kicking some Hittite arse soon. Daeron - if you don't feel confident in starting the war, do your best to prepare it so that I can start it on my turnset. That means that all troops should be at our borders instead of our core towns and all key spots near the border should have roads. We need enough artillery units as well in order to keep our losses down. Build troops instead of markets/libraries/aqueducts for the most part.

 

[Optional]

I am hesitant to make resource/lux trades with civs we don't have direct road trade route with before the tech that allows trades via sea/ocean tiles (magnetism?). If our only trade routes with the Dutch at the moment are a) road route via the Hittite lands and b) coastal route between two harbours, the route can easily be broken when we go to war with the Hittites. The road connection would be severed immediately and it only takes one boat to break the coastal route as well. Or is there a road connection through the jungle already to the Dutch towns? In any case, I don't feel we desperately need another lux at the moment.

I haven't looked at the trade route as well, because it's irrelevant here: we're importing, not exporting, so no danger to our rep at all. If the trade route gets broken it's the Dutch* whose rep gets busted. We lose the incense, but also don't need to pay for it anymore if payment is per turn. And there's more chance the Dutch stay off our neck if they have income from us.
No, we're not desperate for the Incense, but if it makes us money than it costs us, it simply looks like a good deal.

I agree that an itchy Daeron is a good thing. Some more catapults (trebs?) are indeed needed to keep losses down. And (here I go again) horses that can retreat after an attack, so that they don't leave themselves exposed. A medieval infantry will just get mowed down by a longbow the next turn.
A mix of units would be good: if faced with a stack of Hittite units, the first units attacking can be med infantries/longbows, because they will not move forward anyway if there are still units in the Hittite stack, but the last enemy unit can best be taken with a horse, or simply left. I'm sure most of you know this, but it's in the spirit of a training game (wasn't it, Own?) to occasionally repeat these things.

*EDIT: Correction: The Dutch rep must already be busted; they were exporting that incense to us when they declared.

 

[Own]

(wasn't it, Own?)

Well, when a couple DG and/or above players showed up, the idea of a training game seemed silly. But yes, your advice on tactics are very correct.

I can't remember anything funny with trade routes ever happening and not losing my reputation. I wouldn't do it. Losing a trade reputation is always a pain. I guess it could make this game a bigger challenge...

 

[Daeron]

Thanks for the pointers, I'll get started in a bit.

 

[Optional]

Sorry, but there's no danger to our rep whatsoever if we're not exporting anything. Well, if we are the ones that would declare on the Dutch, yes, but that would be silly.

 

[Daeron]

I'll try and get some research going towards military tradition. I agree the zero research seems to have lost its merits since we'll be in war well before cavalry and the Dutch seem to be ignoring chivalry.

Must say, leader fishing is new to me, I've never used tactics to let the AI declare on me yet, so I've always been the one to declare. Which means I've always depended on fast moving units. Catapult and trebuchets really lose a lot of their value if you're facing war weariness and want a quick aggressive war.

I´ll give the trade to the Dutch some thoughts. Given our position as tech broker, it'd be a shame to risk our rep. But I don´t know how that works so, if you say it´s safe to make a trade across a coastal route I´m game.

I'll be building trebs, horseman and MDI's. I think the urgency of the war will depend on where saltpeter is located.

 

[Optional]

..if you say it´s safe to make a trade across a coastal route I´m game.

You don't need a trade route at all for giving techs or gold. Remember we were exchanging techs and gold with the other continent without a trade route, as they were across the ocean.
It's only when you start to export resources that you need to be sure the trade route is safe. Just importing is completely safe, as it's only your trading partner that needs the trade route to get the goods to you.
Also, even when the trade route would run through Hittite territory, and a war starts between the Hittites and us, we would still get the incense, because as long as the Netherlands would still be at peace with the Hittites, they can use the route through their territory to get the goods to us.
I'm a 100% on this.

 

[Daeron]

You don't need a trade route at all for giving techs or gold. Remember we were exchanging techs and gold with the other continent without a trade route, as they were across the ocean.
It's only when you start to export resources that you need to be sure the trade route is safe. Just importing is completely safe, as it's only your trading partner that needs the trade route to get the goods to you.
Also, even when the trade route would run through Hittite territory, and a war starts between the Hittites and us, we would still get the incense, because as long as the Netherlands would still be at peace with the Hittites, they can use the route through their territory to get the goods to us.
I'm a 100% on this.

All right, I'm in my 2nd turn, I ignored the luxury before because we didn't have a searoute. I'll see what I can do.

 

[Optional]

Concerning rep, the bigger concern is the rep of the Hittites. That's probably still clean, so they can get the Dutch in on an alliance against us. Then we would probably need to sign peace with one of them soon, because a 2 front war would just cost us units.
When we were fighting the Dutch there was no chance of an alliance against us, because of the Dutch broken rep. But as soon as we become the Hittites' enemies, the Hittites won't care anymore that the Dutch have cheated on us.
So we must be really mindfull of our Dutch border when we start fighting the Hittites.

I would really like to get a few embassies before the war, to get a better grasp of the diplomatic situation.

 

[Own]

Sorry, but there's no danger to our rep whatsoever if we're not exporting anything. Well, if we are the ones that would declare on the Dutch, yes, but that would be silly.

See, but that makes sense. So much of reputation stuff doesn't make sense. In a very recent solo game, I lost my rep when an alliance broke because the civ I was allying with killed the civ we were against. That doesn't make sense, and neither does losing your rep because a trade route breaks while you're important. I'll take your word for it if you have noticed that this particular kind of funny business doesn't cause a reputation loss, but if it just makes sense to you, I think that you might be wrong.

I'll be building trebs, horseman and MDI's. I think the urgency of the war will depend on where saltpeter is located

Excellent sentence.

 

[Daeron]

Here's my turnlog. I messed up on research. I took a risk at Theology for trading, but instead I got beaten by three civs by one turn. Also Persia looks to be at war.

Spoiler :

Pre flight

Science: 0 %
Luxury: 30 %
Tax: 70 % 105 gpt + 62 gpt from other civs
Treasury: 1977 gold

We don't have a harbor, so the traderoute with the Dutch must be going through Hittite territory. A harbor will be up in a few turns at 018 Kabah. So I'll hold off on any trade with the Dutch for now. The Dutch have excess iron and probably horses as well. Let's hope they don't trade it to the Hittites.

Flip risk at 007 Golden Mountain (0,3-0,7) and 019 Ake (0,5-0,7).

008 Quiriga, switch to horseman
007 Golden Mountain only makes 6 commerce after corruption and has a flip risk which I think is too risky for one of our important cities. I switch the marketplace to library, wasting 8 shields.

We buy invention from the Hittites for Monotheism and 460 gold. No trading options on the other continent. The Dutch already know gunpowder, the Hittites don't. I decide to research theology instead, which researches a turn quicker. by the time it finishes, our gpt deals with the other continent will have almost or already ended, so we can make some new deal which will get us gunpowder and make a nice profit. I change most builds around to libraries that are already committed in shields. We can really use the culture if even Golden Mountain has a flip risk like that. And we'll be researching until military tradition at least, so they're now more needed than marketplaces.

Science: 70 % Theology in 10 turns
Luxury: 30 %
Income: 9 gpt

IBT:
003 Palenque Library -> Mace
004 Golden Hill Library -> Horseman
007 Golden Mountain Library -> Mace
015 Pixie Dust Worker -> Trebuchet

Turn 1, 130 BC:
Theology in 8 turns I'm moving some JT's to the east. Lots and lots of worker actions. I start on a few border roads. I'm confused, one moment the Hittites had a lot of gold from us, the next turn it's gone. they had almost 500 gold and spend it all, but not on gunpowder or any other tech. It could very well be they bought iron or horses from the Dutch.

Ack my virusscanner starts updating, our civilization stagnates!

I can buy incense from the Dutch for 283 gold or 15 gpt + 13 gold. I decide on the latter, because it might prevent a second war.

Lower lux to 20 %
Raise science to 80 %
Theology in 7 turns at - 11 gpt.

In 7 turns our deal with the Persians will expire so that is a nice timing.

IBT:
002 Wheat City Mace -> Mace
006 Ivory of Bonampak Library -> Trebuchet
019 Ake Worker -> Trebuchet

Turn 2, 110 BC:
Start connecting the second horses.
The Persians and Egypt have learned Monotheism.

IBT:
001 Capital City Mace -> Horseman
017 Mayapan Worker -> Trebuchet

The Dutch are building Knights Templar. Great, Ancient Cavalry AND Crusaders.

Turn 3, 90 BC:
The Dutch learn chivalry.
Some worker actions, finish up attack routes and general improvements.
I was considering pulling some forces from the western borders, but I'm not so sure anymore. I pull two horsemen to the north. I'll leave it to Salarakas to decide how much is needed.

IBT:
The Persians request an audience. Heheh, they want to trade monarchy for invention. Funny funny.
013 Tulum Library -> Trebuchet

Turn 4, 70 BC:
We finish up connecting our horses. It turns out, we can't trade our extra horses to the Hittites. So it appears they have a 20 turn deal with the Dutch. We spot a pikeman in Hattusha, so they also bought iron. At this point they don't have chivalry yet.

IBT:
The Hittites have a small cultural expansion to the east, booting one of our workers who just finished an attack route. Guess we more or less improved their tile now, heh..
001 Capital City Horseman -> Mace
008 Quiriqa Horseman -> Horseman
009 Calakmul Library -> Mace
014 Iron Hill Library -> Trebuchet

Turn 5, 50 BC:
Our 20 turn peace agreement with the Dutch will end in 1 turn.
I'm starting to pull workers that finished on the border back to clear marches and such things.

IBT:
002 Wheat City Mace -> Mace
004 Gold Hill Horseman -> Mace
011 Kaminaljuju Marketplace ->
... oke, Kaminal was the only place I continued the marketplace because it had happiness problems. Even with 4 happyfaces from luxury tax and 4 happy faces from the marketplace the city is cranky. I should have build the library instead,
-> Mace

Turn 6, 30 BC
014 Iron Hill is about to riot. Hire a scientist.
Next turn we'll have enough forces to consider war. We're considered strong compared to the Hittites. And not surprisingly, weak compared to the Dutch.

IBT:
William demands 92 gold. I decide 92 gold is not too high a price to be buddies...

We get tulips, best buds forever I guess.

The Hittites have their first 3 manned carriage thingy.
001 Capital City Mace -> Mace
003 Palenque Mace -> Mace
005 Silk Settler -> Trebuchet
006 Ivory of Bonampak Trebuchet -> Trebuchet
007 Golden Mountain Mace -> Mace

The Dutch, the Egyptians are building Sistine's
The Persians start on Knight's Templar

We get beaten to Theology by the Netherlands, the Persians and Egypt by one turn... Guess I messed that up REAL GOOD.

Turn 7, 10 BC:
I buy Theology for 11 gold from the Dutch.
I buy Gunpowder from, the Dutch for 31 gpt + 909 gold
Good news, the Hittites have saltpeter, but haven't connected it yet. We also have a source, nicely tucked away in our center. And the Dutch have no saltpeter connected yet. Nor do I see any deposits in the area we know.

Our Saltpeter

Hittite Saltpeter

Next turn, I'll try and get a deal with the Persians when our gpt deal ends, hopefully I can repair some of the damage. I really expected some of the AI to research until chemistry at least. For now I start research at chemistry.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the settler from 005 Silk. I decide to keep him there. When the war starts, we could possibly use him to steal the saltpeter from the Hittites.

Also I'm noticing red borders on the other continent, it looks like the Persians are at war with someone.

IBT:
Culture expands a whole lot.

Turn 8, 10 AD:
I sell Gunpowder to the Persians for 27 gpt+chivalry+1 gold. I sell Gunpowder to the Egyptians for 31 gpt+60 gold
Well, we end up ahead gunpowder and chivalry and +27 gpt, at the cost of 848 gold and still a long way from metallurgy and mil. tradition.

I pull a few horseman back to cities with barracks. I switch a few builds to knights.

I would love to start a war at this point, but I have no idea how to invite the hittites to declare. I know I'm probably doing the wrong thing, but I have aboslutely no experience with trying to get declared.

IBT:
018 Kabah Harbor -> Trebuchet
Egyptians are building Knights templar

Turn 9, 30 AD:
I'm a bit lost in what to do, I'm kind of used to beating the AI to techs, so getting beaten to Theology completely threw me off.
We're researching chemistry in 11 turns at -11 gpt at the moment.

IBT:

Yes! Hittites demand theology, I refuse.. and.. turns out he was bluffing.

013 Tulum Trebuchet -> Trebuchet
015 Pixie Dust Trebuchet -> Trebuchet
016 Eastern Tip Galley -> Galley

The Hittites are building Knight's templar

Turn 10, 50 AD:
We're completely ready for a war that I have no clue on how to start without declaring ourselves.
It's a shame I totally messed up our research. Still surprised I got beaten on both continents by one turn.

Wrapping up:

Running research to Chemistry at -13 gpt, 10 turns left. We have 154 gold in the treasury.

Units:
1 Settler I couldn't find a use for except for stealing the hittite saltpeter if needed
28 Workers
5 Spearmen
6 Horsemen
3 knights
4 Catapults
1 Galley
12 Maces
4 Trebuchets
4 Javelin Throwers

The positive thing I guess is that the hittites won't stand much of a chance against us. Their only resource they haven't hooked up yet and is right next to our border. They have a few Medieval Infantries now, but we have a lot more + knights.

Looking back, Theology was a poor choice. I messed up there.

 

[Own]

Why wait for a war? Let's take that salt right now! We have a settler.

Also, is 011 building maces without a rax?

Nice job trading, and we look to be in excellent shape. Lucky Salarakas gets to draw the first blood it seems.

Roster-
Own
Overseer
Daeron
Salarakas- up
Optional- on deck

 

[Daeron]

I was hesitant to start a war myself, because the plan was to fish for leaders for a while. I didn't know how war weariness would factor into the later stages of the war.

Pretty sure I forgot to check 011 for barracks.

The one galley we have is almost ready to make a crossing to the east. I'm positive that red civ is the big dog on the other continent. Egypt and Persia only have five and eleven cities.

 

[vmxa]

Kibitzer:

See, but that makes sense. So much of reputation stuff doesn't make sense. In a very recent solo game, I lost my rep when an alliance broke because the civ I was allying with killed the civ we were against. That doesn't make sense, and neither does losing your rep because a trade route breaks while you're important.

I suspect that it was just more code they did not want to write and debug on the allied scenario you mentioned.

The trade route does make sense to me. You do not care why they failed to deliver on the goods. IF they fail to deliver you have to take action as it could cost you your business. They may have the best reason in the world, but they does not help you, so they have to suffer a penalty.

 

[Daeron]

That doesn't make sense, and neither does losing your rep because a trade route breaks while you're important.

Ohh, sure, go and discriminate against unimportant people! We have rights as well!

 

[Optional]

Good trading with Gunpowder, Daeron.
The AI just has an incredible knack of beating the human player by 1 turn, and immediately everybody has that tech. Really suspicious. It wasn't a bad idea to go Theology in this case.
Now, if you're waiting for a lot of AI's to get a tech, because it would then become cheaper, then of course you'll see a civ hanging on to its monopoly forever..

Own, I'm surprised to hear about that rep issue with the alliance against the civ that dies. It shouldn't work like that, obviously.
But with the example of buying a resource for gold per turn I'm sure there's no risk. I don't know if I've got 100% proof, though. The closest thing I know of is this thread. Tasslehoff is seeking an alliance against Japan, and is offering lux for that, but the trade route runs through Japanese territory. The trade is still possible, because his intended trading partner is still at peace with Japan.
There's something else going on which is the reason that the thread got posted, but perhaps it's still clarifying on this subject.

Trade stuff is a confusing thing, though. The Hittites shouldn't be getting iron and horses from the Dutch, because of the broken rep of the Dutch.
I haven't looked at the save yet, though.

 

[Daeron]

Trade stuff is a confusing thing, though. The Hittites shouldn't be getting iron and horses from the Dutch, because of the broken rep of the Dutch.
I haven't looked at the save yet, though.

It was the same turn they spend a couple hundreds of gold I think. I'll check my auto saves.

EDIT: Nope, wasn't that turn.

 

[Salarakas]

I have it but can't play until Saturday (work, got to go see my parents and a have to go to a gig in the evening as well). Feel free to make comments before that.