New Version - December 13th (12-13)

[Infixo]

1. This would imbalance TR yields for a lot of things, so no. Also increases micro. We have enough.
2. Again, micro of bouncing from city to city looking for yields. Not exciting. Also not AI friendly.
The change doesn’t impact Morocco negatively. In fact forcing route diversity helps them, as they only need one route from someone to trigger their bonus, and the likelihood of targeting Morocco goes up because of the filter.
G

Ad. 1. Fair enough.
Ad. 2. Second change is actually less micro. If the route ends, you either replay it (n/a) or find a new one. In second case you have to choose a new home, send it there, wait for next turn, remember where you were supposed to send it and send it. With that change you could do it all in 1 turn, with that unit selected as active. Send to new home, select a new route, get money.
Marocco - I didn't question that... I said that bonus was limited and not player-controlled. It just a matter of how many civs are in the game and the rest is done via new mechanics automatically. Player doesn't need to do anything here.

 

[Infixo]

This is the case already. Shorter trade routes takes less time to complete. They could be made even shorter, though, I think the base travel time, which is added to the actual travel time, can be shortened, so distance makes a stronger impact on trade route duration.
Why not?
Internal trade routes, then.

There is no info about how long the route will take on the overview screen (that lists all). Only when the route is active you know when it will end (again, no info if it a long or short TR).
Internal routes just transfer food and prod. No gain on science, culture, etc.

 

[tu_79]

There is no info about how long the route will take on the overview screen (that lists all). Only when the route is active you know when it will end (again, no info if it a long or short TR).

Yeah, that screen could be improved by saying how long each trade route will take, too.

Internal routes just transfer food and prod. No gain on science, culture, etc.

But still better than idle. This is a nerf on trade routes to safe, profitable cities. It's logical that now some trade routes won't be safe and profitable.

 

[Tekamthi]

Internal routes just transfer food and prod. No gain on science, culture, etc.

you could potentially use internal TR to increase production in a city thats making science, commerce or culture, etc. Of course this will work out to be a much compromised yield over the external, but to make a vague generalization, isn't this somewhat historically accurate? I know we don't do things for realism around here, but as I'm getting into my first game here, it 'feels' like a good fit.

 

[Infixo]

Cannot send trade routes to a foreign city if a trade route from a another owned city is already targeting that city

A good compromise would be to allow for 1 land and 1 sea TR. Land/sea TRs have different strategy and usage. I would go for 1 land and 1 sea, plus distance modifier - cool.

 

[Txurce]

Morocco's ability goes with Americas as the most annoying, aggressively gross ability. Morocco should pillage every trade route they can as the AI. Thus, they should never be given open borders by any civ. They should be attacked by any civ. Just like America, it's just instant war to remove them from the game.

Morocco won't need OB to hit 90% of max pillaging. And yep, they join America and England as major annoyances, especially dangerous to civs like Portugal. Sounds good to me - I'm all for more rock-paper-scissors dynamics in individual games.

I support changes that give player more choices (e.g. distance change), I don’t support changes that limit player choices.

This change forces more choice, because it removes a tactic that any good player could game.

 

[Asterix Rage]

• Experience required for leveling units now scales with gamespeed

I'm going to try but for now, I'm not very optimistic with this change.
I feel we are already very limited with supply limit and SR requirement and now we are prevented to raise few units at 450XP Hero.
XP accumulation is one of the numerous challenges in Civ. Even a opponent with high level units is exiting. It's why I play Marathon only Immortal often

At least, tell us what file to edit to recover the brutal Civ5 we like (Not everybody I have to admit)
__
By the way, why not to introduce a unique and simple txt file we could edit and set many options like this one, the PROMOTION_PRISONER_WAR, the MINOR_MAX_XP_VALUE, and many others

 

[Owlbebach]

Not even that small nerf was necessary, science and culture from tr to others civs where fine and balanced, only the wields from tr to friendly and allied city states where off.

Well thats probably a difficulty issue, cause on Deity i never trade with allied CS because TR to one of 3 leading AIs give 2-3 times more of everything

Just one question: do you realize that asking leading questions like that comes off very hostile?

No i don't. It was sarcastic, yes. But not hostile at all really

Play, test, report back. I loathe armchair theory.

Well you know i played more than 1000 hours in your mod, which mean it is awesome, but it also means that i know the game well enough and (not always but most of the time) i do know how new changes will affect the game without testing.

 

[DarkZero]

• Experience required for leveling units now scales with gamespeed

I'm going to try but for now, I'm not very optimistic with this change.
I feel we are already very limited with supply limit and SR requirement and now we are prevented to raise few units at 450XP Hero.
XP accumulation is one of the numerous challenges in Civ. Even a opponent with high level units is exiting. It's why I play Marathon only Immortal often

At least, tell us what file to edit to recover the brutal Civ5 we like (Not everybody I have to admit)
__
By the way, why not to introduce a unique and simple txt file we could edit and set many options like this one, the PROMOTION_PRISONER_WAR, the MINOR_MAX_XP_VALUE, and many others

Wen you play marathon, you play a mode where it things takes 200% more to research and build, and yet you want the soldiers that take twice as many times to build to earn xp at the same rate as standard? If a game mode is slower it only makes sense for everything in it be slower, tech, production, and promotion aquisition, or else massive imbalances happen, the ai is mostly imcapable of aquiring 450xp unit heroes and playing in a game speed where its trivial for the player to aquire something is impossible to ai leads only to cheese.

 

[Infixo]

This change forces more choice, because it removes a tactic that any good player could game.

Noone is forced to use exploits and game the game. Some will, some won’t. It’s no reason to limit anything. Also, some players will exploit, and some will make mistakes. Would you like to have also a mechanism that prevents from mistakes?

 

[Txurce]

Noone is forced to use exploits and game the game. Some will, some won’t. It’s no reason to limit anything. Also, some players will exploit, and some will make mistakes. Would you like to have also a mechanism that prevents from mistakes?

No, a mechanism to prevent mistakes would inhibit learning. To your major point, making exploits unworkable is a consistent aspect of VP's development. You don't have to like it the way I do, but that's the way it is.

No i don't. It was sarcastic, yes. But not hostile at all really

Well you know i played more than 1000 hours in your mod, which mean it is awesome, but it also means that i know the game well enough and (not always but most of the time) i do know how new changes will affect the game without testing.

Believe it or not, sarcasm is often viewed as hostile by the recipients.

As for how well you know the game - I keep going back to you claiming that Tradition is the optimal way to play America.

 

[Jarula]

For some reason every time I start with 43 civs on communitas it won't form the map... It used to be whenever there was 2 of the same civ.

 

[Infixo]

No, a mechanism to prevent mistakes would inhibit learning. To your major point, making exploits unworkable is a consistent aspect of VP's development. You don't have to like it the way I do, but that's the way it is.

I take it you are absolutely sure we’re fixing the right problem with the right solution. Good.

 

[Asterix Rage]

..., and yet you want the soldiers that take twice as many times to build to earn xp at the same rate as standard? ...

Yes I want.
Marathon/immortal, that's why

 

[Tekamthi]

Yes I want.
Marathon/immortal, that's why

in my perfect world, this would be implemented as checkboxes in game setup. One box to apply speed-scaled-xp to human, and one for AI. This is beyond my abilities, and not sure if possible even, but I think this would suit everyone's tastes if it were.

 

[notque]

in my perfect world, this would be implemented as checkboxes in game setup. One box to apply speed-scaled-xp to human, and one for AI. This is beyond my abilities, and not sure if possible even, but I think this would suit everyone's tastes if it were.

To be fair, we could fill the list with 1000 options, and I would still use none of them. It's a lot of effort for a very minor part of the total player base.

 

[Mad Madigan]

I'm all for adjusting XP gains to match with game speed, but if my units need more XP per level at Epic and Marathon, shouldn't the XP boosts from Barracks, Armouries, and Military Academies (and Orders) also be boosted so that units produced in those cities still start at level 2/3/4, respectively? Or has that already been taken into account?

 

[Galbias]

I'm imagining the worst-case scenario of a Morocco who's friendly to most Civs on the surface and has lots of Open Borders, but goes around with a bunch of Scout/Horse units plundering every trade route they can as long as it's outside of the vision of the civ in question and there's nothing anyone can really do about it. Mid to late game trade-routes take very little production to replace (and don't really give much gold when plundered) so it seems like the sort of thing that could be minor to an AI but obnoxious to a human player having to rebuild, move, and resend trade routes. Will have to see how it plays out though.

I do like the sound of the trade route changes.

 

[Questdog]

The cap for Barb XP ought maybe to be higher on slower speeds, as well, but I will take the negatives of the slower XP making Marathon tougher than Standard over Marathon being easier than Standard.

One other idea I have had for a while, but do not know if it is able to be implemented, is that units ought to lose previous experience when they lose more than half of their HP. Since all the healed HP are with new recruits, they should not be so elite any more.

 

[Tekamthi]

One other idea I have had for a while, but do not know if it is able to be implemented, is that units ought to lose previous experience when they lose more than half of their HP. Since all the healed HP are with new recruits, they should not be so elite any more.

I love ideas like this, but more for mod mods; I think this would be too much to ask the AI to manage in the main VP.