News: GOTM 10 Pre-game Discussion

[Jorunkun]

Whats a good idea for defence? Seeing as we start without hunting, I think I might ignore archery at the start and just go straight for axemen.

This would be my knee-jerk response if this was an emperor game - bypass archery if at all possible. But playing some immortal has given me second thoughts. Babarians will start appearing in 3550 BC, 5 turns earlier than emperor. There are more of them than on emperor. And if you have an AI neighbour, s/he might be first to the copper, if you have any.

I will probably beeline for bw anyway, but if copper is out of reach and we start on a bigish landmass, I would consider throwing in hunting and archery soonish.

 

[Jorunkun]

FYI, I have summarised all available information about immortal specific boni/mali from the handicap.xml in my "Understanding Power" discussion of immortal strategy over in the strategy section. Give it a look: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184077

I hope to add some sort of timeline for average dates of religions being founded, wonders built etc; if you have some input it would much be appreciated.

And while you are there, why not share some of your insights from playing immortal? Posts like AU_Armageddon's, Mr Cynical's and Godotnut's are exactly what was I hoping for.

 

[onedreamer]

Being a port is enough for health (thanks to Harbor) IMO, compared to loosing a fish. With financial trait, water tile mean very good commerce income, which is always welcomed in the capital especially when you adopt Bureacracy. 2 Fishes at start means you can improve tiles without slowing your growth (work boats as opposed to workers) and once you have 2 fishes worked with fishing boats you can produce settlers fast.
Also you don't know yet what is SE.. there could be mountain(s), and anyways several hills for sure.

I've never played GOTM even with Civ3... and never played above Emperor in Civ4. I think this will be my first try although I doubt I can do any good, but it looks like a good start. With so much commerce around, I'll probably try to found a religion, which is always good for growing cities early on.

 

[Cabledawg]

The odds of anyone founding an early religion are worse than my odds of (insert having sex with any celebrity here).
I tried the test game and went warrior, grow to 2, worker, workboat, warrior, grow to 3, settler....I may have stuck something else in there. I stuck around until 1680AD. I never founded a religion, I only adapted Buddhism because 2 of my neighbors had it. That kept me safe for a lil bit.
I went to Alphabet and traded that around...then traded Lit. After those trades, I tried to get to techs they wouldnt have, but the AI were allways ahead of me and trading with each other as well.
I ended up with 5 cities and that was tough as the AI really settled aggressively towards me. There was no way to catch the AI. Looking at the replay, they had 4 and 5 cities before I had plopped down a 3rd and I thought I was fairly aggressive getting out settlers, I mean i still had to make protectors for the settlers against the barbs.
An early rush wasnt possible...warriors against archers isnt gonna work and when i finally got axemen, they had allready had them for quite awhile.
When the game ended, my Macemen, Cho-Ko-Nu's, and cats were defending against Artillery, Sam Infantry, and Cavalry.
I dont know that I could have done anything different at the start...you need the warrior as barbs show up sooner. Going settler first cant be a good idea....thatll stunt you bad. Getting the workboat out when I did helped alot.

Also, in the test game, I didnt settle so i had both fish in the fat cross...because you just cant whip that fast. I was limited to size 4 and it takes like 15 turns for the whip to wear off, so youre stuck at size 3 until the whip wears off.

Someone else do the test start and give your impressions.

 

[Shillen]

I've only played in one Immortal game, which was an SG back in Dec/Jan. We barely eeked out a diplomatic win, when much of the game it seemed hopeless.

My primary observation from that game is that managing relations with other civs is extremely critical on immortal. The amount of units the AI's have is absolutely insane (although our game was on one landmass so it was a bit harder than archipelago). I agree with what AU_Armageddon said also, that you should research the techs that you think you will be able to trade before worrying about researching the techs you need most. It's important to get double value for your beakers through trade.

If you are going to wage wars you have a couple options. Either you need to fight them early before they war with anyone else so they haven't built a huge military yet, and make sure to build more units than normal before declaring as well. Or you need to get alliances with other civs so you can fight them 2vs1 and try to steal the cities after your ally weakens them. Most likely your ally will have double or triple the number of troops that you do so they should do most of the dirty work. But you can't let your ally get too powerful either...unless you're going for a diplo win.

Oh, and I'll be extremely surprised if anyone can manage a 100% peaceful game. The AI's are very aggressive on immortal and almost definitely will attack you...probably early.

 

[ungy]

Thanks all for the tips and observations--especially AU armageddon and Godutnut. Great forum Jorunkun--very helpful. I have only won immortal with a cherry picked start and an early rush so this should be quite a challenge. My guess is the warrior will reveal something good as I think this is a tough game for most players. Also I think cultural could be a good option given the map and fin.

 

[Airny]

If I'm able to win this, I think it is with a cultural victory.
@godotnut
You said, you would create some religions.
I tried that but now I have doubts it is a good way.
1.)
I had the same idea in my testgame and created hindu+judaism, so it is possible, I built the pyramids too! But where is the use, when Montezuma is next to you being a budda?! The point is: Would you stay without state religion?
2.)
If I research that religion-techs, I get pottery and alphabet later than the AI, so I can't trade techs...

I don't see the advantage in own religions cause they will barely spread on their own and cost valuable time techwise.

 

[Dagnabit]

I played the test game with almost the same results as Cabledawg. After settling in place and hooking up fish I found 4 Civs scouting ,the capital was easily defended from Barbs, although Iwent BW and with no copper close had to quickly get hunting for archers. After AH, I beelined for ALpha in order to pickup Iron working and was able to trade for a couple of techs from 3 of the 4 Civs I had met(Guess what Togo's trading response was.) This was basically the last tech trading I was able to do as the AI just pulled further ahead. I converted to their religion and we lived in basic harmony until meeting last 2 CIVs in 1500's Inca wanted me to give up my relationships with my harmonious big brothers (They all had a 3 to 1 score lead over me) and when I refused he landed with Riflemen and Cats. My UU+ swords+ axes even in relatvely large numbers only delayed the inevtable and I found myself down to my last city around 1650-when it was time to call it quits. I am obviously in need of some new strategy at this level. I think I will go Warrior,Warrior,warrior x adinfinitum and run headlong South until I run into the Sea like a lemming or suicde myself on the arrows of my nearest enemy!!

Next time!!!!

 

[Cactus Pete]

An Immortal-level game at EPIC speed on a multi-continent, low-water-level map – that’s a turn burner.

Though the high-level challenge beckons, especially given the food-rich landscape, I’ve only so many discretionary hours available next month. Reluctantly, I’ll have to sit this one out. Nonetheless, I’ll offer two thoughts not discussed previously:

(1) While settling in place forfeits a future forest chop (and forests appear to be a limited resource), settling on the river bank (in addition to providing long-term health) opens a possible in-land trading route.

(2) Any nearby civilization will have workers immediately. Stealing one early would potentially gain a winning advantage, worth risking your civilization’s survival against a multi-archer retaliation. (Easy to say when you don’t plan to play.)

Good luck to all!

 

[godotnut]

If I'm able to win this, I think it is with a cultural victory.
@godotnut
You said, you would create some religions.
I tried that but now I have doubts it is a good way.
1.)
I had the same idea in my testgame and created hindu+judaism, so it is possible, I built the pyramids too! But where is the use, when Montezuma is next to you being a budda?! The point is: Would you stay without state religion?

Yes, I would stay without state religion until either a) people switch to free religion, b) all of my nearby neighbors are my religion, or c) neighbors are so happy with me from trades that it doesn't matter.

2.)
If I research that religion-techs, I get pottery and alphabet later than the AI, so I can't trade techs...

I don't see the advantage in own religions cause they will barely spread on their own and cost valuable time techwise.

If you succeeded in getting Hinduism, I would stop there and head for alphabet without going for Judaism. Then I would go for Christianity later (probably with a great prophet) and hope for one more to spread. Three religions should be enough to win. You might also be able to get Islam with a great artist, though that's one less culture bomb later on.

You could risk it and hope for enough to spread to you. It depends a lot on how many neighbors are on the land mass and whether they found religions.

Note that in the Major Gauntlet II, some people had luck winning on Deity without Pyramids, teching to representation.

Also, you can conquer your way to having enough religions (Moonsinger had luck at this, I think).

Immortal is much easier than Deity. The AI is unlikely to launch the ship super-early, and you will have a little more time to play with than is suggested in my guide.

One more thing: I probably won't be able to pay super-close attention to this thread after today, as I have an 20-page article due this week and will be busy at work. I'm not ignoring anyone on purpose!

 

[Markus5]

I've never tried a cultural win in earnest. Is this the time to try? Just thinking about defending a small empire with almost no military gives me the willies. Well, that seems to be method at high levels. If you get swarmed by barbs or your neighbor, you lose. Pretty simple.

 

[Thrallia]

hm...I highly doubt I'll have any chance whatsoever to win, although the comments about Immortal from Godonut and AU Armageddon are much appreciated. But for the sake of illusion...I'll try for a Cultural Victory, something I've never gone for before. However, if I do not have any religions founded or spread to me by soon after the first spoiler thread, I will change to diplo.

 

[Tauro]

I made a test game with a cheated start (I added two fish, the cows, and stone plus two plain hills in the capital, taking out its previous resources) and I achieved an incredible cultural win in......1975 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With only three religions, Pyramids, GL ant NOTHING else.
Ok, I was cheating and it was a test game, but the key seemed to be my initial location and the opponents: three aggressive (Kuby, Monty and Toku) Ceasar, hatty and Elizabeth. I made an endless diplomatic slalom between Toku, monty and Ceasar, the last was first in score but was stopped by Monty when he was building the last part of the spaceship, the engine. I could won about fifty turn beforewithout an idiot mistake with one GP.

Intergalactic score: 6500 LOL

Thx to the guy that wrote the guide for cultural victory with Pyramids

 

[Jorunkun]

As a result of the discussion in the Understanding Power thread, “leverage your strengths early” is my new credo for playing Immortal. Here’s a proposal for an early start that takes that advice to heart.

The first question is where to settle; in place or on the SE hill. Obviously, a lot depends on what the warrior reveals, but let us assume there’s nothing special there. In this case, I would found in place.

This means we have two fish and a grassland cow, plus some forest if we need shields. Given that we are financial, our best overall yield would be to get two food and three commerce from each fish (five food with a boat). This suggests to me that fishing is prio #1.

Further, we are lucky to have a three-food-tile, which offers us an option to grow more quickly than on most starts. Lets use it to grow to pop two (11 turns) while building a warrior and researching fishing (10 turns).

As a next step, assuming that we haven't found any AI neighbours on the island that necessitate a super early settler, we should leave the warrior to complete later and get a fishing boat out as quickly as we can. Normally, this would mean working the forests, but being financial, we have a unique advantage: Knowing fishing, we can work both fish tiles for six commerce and research up to bronze working in just 15 turns. The boat will come along slowly, but once we switch to slavery, we can whip our then size three city to complete it, and use the spillover to complete the warrior too.

With our happy-threshold at four and an improved fish tile to work, we don’t suffer any disadvantage from the early whip and come out stronger in tech, prod and growth compared to any other start.

From here on, we have a couple of options. Build more warriors to combat barbs or a boat to take further advantage of the start while growing to 4, research animal husbandry while building a worker to improve the cow and chop to accellerate the settler or just build a settler, aided by rushing if necessary.

Thoughts?

J.

 

[Jorunkun]

If you succeeded in getting Hinduism, I would stop there and head for alphabet without going for Judaism. Then I would go for Christianity later (probably with a great prophet) and hope for one more to spread. Three religions should be enough to win.

(...)

Immortal is much easier than Deity. The AI is unlikely to launch the ship super-early, and you will have a little more time to play with than is suggested in my guide.

I believe the map will probably be the biggest factor in deciding whether a cultural win is possible. If you share the continent with another (religious and/or aggressive) things could get dicey really quickly.

Also, getting the religions will be no mean feat. If there are two spiritual start-with-mysticism AIs in the game, I doubt you can get more than Judaism, and even that at a great cost to your early options.

I haven't played culturally in a long time, last time i tried was on Monarch, so am really looking forward to your game report - bonne chance!

J.

 

[Jorunkun]

Any nearby civilization will have workers immediately. Stealing one early would potentially gain a winning advantage, worth risking your civilization’s survival against a multi-archer retaliation.

That's a big risk, IMHO. If your neighbour is close by, I wouldn't chance it. If s/he is farther away, you might stand a better chance at surviving the backlash but getting your worker home will be hard. Wouldn't try this myself, not in a GOTM anyway.

 

[EEO]

As a result of the discussion in the Understanding Power thread, “leverage your strengths early” is my new credo for playing Immortal.

Thanks for this good work.

The first question is where to settle; in place or on the SE hill. Obviously, a lot depends on what the warrior reveals, but let us assume there’s nothing special there. In this case, I would found in place.

Why don't you even consider settle 1SE ? You get the +2 health bonus, save 1 forest, have two hills for sure and don't lose 1 turn (of course, you lose 1 fish, but on hill too). Do you trust the blue circles so much ?

but once we switch to slavery, we can whip our then size three city to complete it, and use the spillover to complete the warrior too.

Would you use slavery this way if the bug was fixed ? (I remember DaveMcW asking that a fix for slavery bug was included in HOF mod ...)

 

[DaviddesJ]

Would you use slavery this way if the bug was fixed ? (I remember DaveMcW asking that a fix for slavery bug was included in HOF mod ...)

Which bug? There's no real benefit from "slavery bug" until you get a production bonus, i.e., Organized Religion, Forge, etc. That takes quite a while, long after the phase of the game he's discussing. (Especially at Immortal where you aren't likely to found a religion.)

 

[EEO]

Which bug? There's no real benefit from "slavery bug" until you get a production bonus, i.e., Organized Religion, Forge, etc. That takes quite a while, long after the phase of the game he's discussing. (Especially at Immortal where you aren't likely to found a religion.)

You are absolutely right. I was so reluctant to use a bug (and slavery too, but it's another story...) in my play that I did not even examine what it is.
Your remark forced me to read it carefully, and yes the question is irrelevant at this stage.

 

[Jorunkun]

Thanks for this good work.

Pleasure. There's a ton of new contributions and questions there, so get typing.

Why don't you even consider settle 1SE ? You get the +2 health bonus, save 1 forest, have two hills for sure and don't lose 1 turn (of course, you lose 1 fish, but on hill too). Do you trust the blue circles so much?

No. Actually, I have blue circles recommendations disabled, it's too much of a distraction (although some people claim you can second guess hidden strategic ressource placement from them ... not sure if there's something to it).

But anyway, fair point, and I had actually considered the site but rejected it on the grounds that it makes the northern fish unaccessible, lest you claim it from the opposite shore and it kind of devalues the northern strip of land.

if you found 2SE, you can still found pretty good later city 1N of where the settler is now, but on 1SE everything becomes pretty tight. Also, I am not too concerned about health. By the time you hit the cap you should have enough trading partners (i.e. some naval ressoruce for the 2nd fish?) and harbours to get you by.

As for the use of slavery, I agree it is probably overpowered and would like to see it reduced in effectiveness, esp. for multi-pop rushing. But on immortal, I consider it fair game to use ... and frankly doubt I could get very far without it.