News: GOTM 53 - Started 1 April

AlanH

Mac addict, php monkey
Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
29,706
Location
England

GOTM 53: Robinson Crusoe

[img=right]http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm53civ.jpg[/img]

Alone! Completely alone! You have already climbed to that hill and seen nothing. You get down to the beach again, sit down on the sand and start thinking. What are you going to do now?


Game settings:

Civilization: Robinson's (Leader: Robinson Crusoe; Traits: Expansive, Organized)
Rivals: 6 AIs
Difficulty: Prince
Map: Archipelago/Archipelago
Mapsize: Standard
Sealevel: Low
Climate: Arid
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Options: None. Note that Goody Huts have not been removed.
Victory Conditions: all enabled


Robinson Crusoe:

Robinson Crusoe is Expansive and Organized ; starting with Fishing and Mining. As you are Expansive, you get +3 free health and you also get double speed Granary and Harbor. Being Organized you get -50% civic upkeep and you also get double speed lighthouse and courthouse.



Unique unit: Praetorian(replaces Swordman)

It has 8 strength, but costs 45 hammers to build and has no city attack bonus.


Starting screenshot

This is the start of the game (click for a bigger image):




Adventurer Class bonuses:
  1. Noble: You play the game at Noble difficulty, although AI will receive Prince starting units.

Challenger Class Equalisers:
  1. Monarch: You play the game at Monarch difficulty, although AI will receive Prince starting units and you will score as if playing on Prince.


To Enter the Competition:

This competition will open on 1 April 2010. From that date, you'll be able to get your chosen starting save >>>here<<<.
Submit the save after your victory (or defeat) here, by 1 May 2010.


Software Versions

Windows: This game MUST be played in Civilization 4 (NOT Warlords or BTS), patched to version 1.74, and with the HOF mod version 1.74.004 installed. You can download the HOF mod here. Players using Windows Vista are encouraged to read the notes on Vista fixes here.

Macintosh: This game MUST be played in Civilization 4 (NOT Warlords), patched to version 1.74, and with the Mac HOF mod version 1.74.002 installed. You can download the HOF mod here.


While playing...

Remember - for your entry to be accepted, it MUST be your first attempt to play this game, and you MUST NOT replay any turns. If you make a mistake while playing, you have to live with it, learn from it, and carry on the game without replaying.

We will open 'spoiler' threads during the month for players to discuss what happens in their games. Do not discuss any details of the game outside those threads while it is in progress.

Please write here or send me a Private Message for any technical queries, eg. if you have trouble opening the game. Do NOT post in this thread once you have successfully opened the starting save.
 
Apologies, this thread should have been posted some time ago! There's obviously way too much real life going on around here ... :blush:
 
I think we might need some more seafood :)
 
Settle in place. <but blue circle on hill = more immediate production>
Build workboat. <but worker could mine hill>
Tech Bronzeworking for slavery, followed by sailing for galley.
Alas, No Moai Statues. <but a decent great person farm /understatement>

Is there Iron in the hill?
 
Very interesting. I'll probably start next week. I've got real life, too. ;-)
 
Looks like Slavery and Monarchy will be the best civics to be in for most of this game. How many population do you need to whip to build the Oracle?
 
Sorry for the delay, everybody.
Thanks for posting it, AlanH.
 
Settle in place. <but blue circle on hill = more immediate production>
Build workboat. <but worker could mine hill>
...Is there Iron in the hill?

Spoiler The Debate of the Desert Nomad and the Hill Hiker (warning: it's a long one with no clear end in sight!) :
Desert Nomad: Settling in place lets you start researching right away... towards an early religion!

Hill Hiker: Kind of a flakey idea to research two techs off of the beaten path just to score a religion right away, since delaying Bronze Working means that you won't have a lot of production for a while. If you really want a Holy City for your capital, research Bronze Working first, then, if a religion is not yet gone, beeline towards it.

Desert Nomad: But, you'll still miss out on one turn of research by moving to the Plains Hills square!

Hill Hiker: Dude, you're not going to get that religion anyway. I just gave you the impression that you *might* in order to make you feel better about letting it go. Far better to settle on the Plains Hills square. You'll get DOUBLE PRODUCTION in the short term and that extra hammer will last the ENTIRE GAME!

Desert Nomad: Okay, fine, but I can get FIVE TIMES PRODUCTION by mining that Plains Hills square! Nyah nyah nah boo boo!

Hill Hiker: Production now is better than production later! Plus, your silly Worker is going to have to sit around like Robinson Crusoe did, waiting for centuries for a boat to show up!

Desert Nomad: But isn't Robinson Crusoe the name of the game? Huh? Huh? It's not called "GOTM 53: Settle on the Plains Hills square," is it? Anyway, I can also build a Road on that Plains Hills square just to keep my Worker busy!

Hill Hiker: What, and delay getting Sailing and your precious boat by detouring to The Wheel?

Desert Nomad: Hmm, good point. Well, well... I'll at least have a unit to explore with as soon as we land! It seems that the Map Maker forgot to give us any kind of exploring unit.

Hill Hiker: Sure, you go ahead and pop a Hut with that good old Worker of yours. Watch out for the Black Ninjas, though! Once you pop them, your Worker is a dead man!

Desert Nomad: Arrrggghhh! Well, that Worker will be useful... some day. Hey, I have an idea... instead of building a Worker at the start, I can build one WITHOUT overflow, once whipping Work Boats has raised the anger levels. You know, to help cool off the populace for a few turns and see if we can't get another person happy again.

Hill Hiker: Alright, I'll give you that one. But, you can't argue the point that the SAME TECHNIQUE would work if you swapped that Worker for a Settler. Then you could be just as risky/not-risky with your Hut Hunting by using/not using an unprotected unit, but would also have the option expand to a second city that will undoubtedly have more production!

Desert Nomad: You'll still need a Worker to go with your first Settler.

Hill Hiker: True, true. But the longer that you delay getting out that Settler, the greater chances that the good spots will be taken up by Barbs or enemy Civs!

Desert Nomad: It's all a matter of a few turns, either way. Let's tackle a more important, but related argument. Back to that whipping anger: all you'll have to work for squares are water-based Resources! Me, I'll have a 0 Food-per-turn Plains Hills square, which still TRIPLES production without a Worker!

Hill Hiker: Oh, so you fell for my don't build a Worker line. I guess you do have a point that you'll still have more raw production even without mining the Plains Hills square. Still, why work a square for 2 Hammers when you can work one for 2, 4, 5, or 6 Food plus some Commerce? That food quickly becomes Hammers, you know!

Desert Nomad: Yes, that Food can be translated into Hammers, but as we agreed, there will come a point when whipping anger is so great that growing is not an attractive option but we'll still want a square with some good production.

Hill Hiker: I think that you're planning too far in advance, anyway. You don't need 8 Work Boats before building a Settler! Somewhere between one and five Work Boats aught to do it early on, don't you think? Besides... would you rather work a Clam with 2 Food and 2 Commerce or a 2 Hammer Plains Hills square without a Mine when building a Settler? Or, put another way, a Work-boated Clam for 4 Food and 2 Commerce or a Mined 4 Hammer Plains Hills square when building a Settler? Both produce the same amount of Hammers for the Settler, but the Clam nets you 2 extra Commerce! So, I would argue that you will only use the Plains Hills square every once and a while. With my way, we'll get the benefit every single turn (except for Turn 0) by settling in the Hills!

Desert Nomad: I only need to work that Plains Hills square more than once every few turns on average to net more raw Hammers than you will!

Hill Hiker: Few? Where are we, English class? Be specific with your Math, man! Every 4 turns, I will get 8 Hammers. You will have to work that Plains Hills square once every 4 turns just to get as many Hammers as I will. Do your Math!!! You will find that I am right!

Desert Nomad: Mumble, mumble, 1 plus 1 plus 1 plus 5, mumble, mumble, darn! Well, well... have you considered the following? What if there is IRON on that square? Do that Math, sucker!

Hill Hiker: Okay, I will! Assuming that we learn Iron Working on the same turn...

Desert Nomad: I'll learn it one turn faster! I can start research on Turn 0!

Hill Hiker: Perhaps... but how many turns did we say you had to work a Plains Hills square just to equal me? Once every 4 turns? That's once every 4 turns that you aren't growing as fast as I am....

Desert Nomad: Which is supposed to be a good thing, due to unhappiness levels....

Hill Hiker: Okay, but that's one in four turns (or more than that, if you want to get more production than I will get) where you aren't working a square for 2 extra Commerce. Surely, over time, the 10 Commerce (8 from Palace, two from a seafood Resource) that I miss on Turn 0 will be made up for over time... or maybe more so...

Desert Nomad: Okay, okay, let's ignore the difference. Assume that we learn Iron Working on the same turn.

Hill Hiker: Thank you. Settling on the Iron will net me 3 Hammers per turn. Mining the Iron will net you 6 Hammers per turn. Agreed?

Desert Nomad: Sounds about right...

Hill Hiker: Okay then. Every 3 turns I will get 9 Hammers. In that time you will have to work the Plains Hills Iron square once just to get as many! That's even worse than before!

Desert Nomad: What? Wait a minute! That can't be right! 1 plus 1 plus 7... mumble, mumble... that's... 9! Oh, darn, your Math beat me again! But still, how can having Iron be more in your favour?

Hill Hiker: One out of every four turns without the Iron multiplied by 3 equals 3/12. One out of every three turns with Iron multiplied by 4 equals 4/12. The numerator is the number of times that you have to WASTE working the Plains Hills (sometimes with Iron) square just to equal the production that I output by just working seafood. Clearly, having to spend 4 turns instead of 3 turns just to match my production level makes things worse for you in the case where the Iron, or Copper, I might add, is present.

Desert Nomad: Grrr... well, well, what if there isn't Iron or Copper or anything else Resource wise, did you think of that? Me working that Plains Hills mined square (yup, I'm back to the Worker plan) over time may just POP Iron or Copper or even, Gold for me! You won't get to pop anything!

Hill Hiker: Touché. Still, getting Gold isn't all that great... you'd lose a production! Haha!

Desert Nomad: Sure it is! Then I can justify working that square over working a seafood square, since I'll be netting Hammers and a lot of Commerce to boot!

Hill Hiker: It's still a bit of a long-shot. Don't tell me that you're the kind of player who builds an entire strategy around a lottery winning? Haha!

Desert Nomad: Fine, we won't take it into consideration. I'll still be crossing my fingers, though! Anyway, have you considered Organized Religion? How about a Forge?

Hill Hiker: What of them?

Desert Nomad: Ha! And I thought that you were the Math Wizard! With you settling on the Plains Hills square, heck, I'll even GIVE you Iron for free, you will only make 2 to 3 Hammers per turn. You need 4 Hammers per turn in order to get a bonus! Me, I'll get my bonus Hammer from working a Plains Hills square, regardless of whether or not it has Iron! Even if I get one less Hammer from POPPING GOLD...

Hill Hiker: Quit dreaming...

Desert Nomad: I'm just making a point. Even in that case, I will still get my bonus Hammer from Organized Religion and I'll still get my bonus Hammer from a Forge.

Hill Hiker: I can always run an Engineer Specialist. That'll net me enough Hammers.

Desert Nomad: If you can count in Specialists, then so can I! Without Iron or any other bonuses, I'll make 5 Hammers per turn working that Plains Hills square. All I'll need is 1 Engineer and 1 Priest and I'll make yet ANOTHER bonus Hammer for Organized Religion and ANOTHER one for the Forge bonus, since I'll have 8 raw Hammers' worth of output. With Iron there, I'll just need 1 Engineer Specialist to get TWO bonus Hammers for each of Organized Religion and the Forge compared to your ONE bonus with the same 1 Engineer Specialist! So there!

Hill Hiker: Well, I can run an additional Specialist in place of your Plains Hills square.

Desert Nomad: Haha! Good luck! By the time that you can build enough buildings which allow you to even run a Specialist, such as a Library, a Forge, Temples, etc, using your miserable production levels, the game will be almost over or else you'll have whipped so much that you won't have any happy people remaining to become Specialists!

Hill Hiker: There's always Caste System...

Desert Nomad: I can run it, too. There's nothing that says I HAVE to work that Plains Hills square for the duration of being in the Caste System Civic, anyway, so I can have just as many Specialists as you can! Plus, you can't disrupt an entire Slavery Empire just to satisfy the needs of one city...

Hill Hiker: That city IS Rome after all...

Desert Nomad: Yes, but what's in a name? You can call it something else at the start and the next city can be called Rome! Besides, I'll at least still have some production under Caste System. You'll have, what... 2 Hammers plus the odd Hammer from Specialists? That situation is not nearly as versatile as being able to work a Plains Hills square whenever I want!

Hill Hiker: Well, you've certainly given me a lot to think about. Pardon me while I go climb my Plains Hills square to consider these findings. I think that I'll just bring along this man, woman, and two kids for a little tour of my Hills while you think about things down here on the beach. Sound good?

Desert Nomad: Wait a minute! Those people are staying right here!

Hill Hiker: What, are you some kind of a Desert Dictator now? Let's ask the people and see what they want to do. Well, people, where do YOU want to go?
 
If I were the mapmaker, I would put iron on both tiles. Then the start is equal for all players.

With low sea level, archi archi and goody huts, sounds like a scout on a galley asap might be lots of fun.
 
<snip>
Well, people, where do YOU want to go?

Definitely in place. Settling on plains hills is awesome, if you want to build units quick before teching very much. We aint going to be building many units (other than WB's) for a long time.
 
If I were the mapmaker, I would put iron on both tiles. Then the start is equal for all players.

Ummm, equal for those players who beeline iron working.

A resource would be nice but I can't see it making a huge difference to production, since you need to mine it first, and on this map, building a worker isn't exactly going to be top priority.

On another note, can you imagine the havoc that a single barb galley could wreck to this empire!
 
I think I will go for the hills, most of the things built in this city will probably be whipped anyway. And if I am going to produce workers or settlers, then one of the sea resources are more useful.
 
The settler stands on desert, does he not? If there is no resource on the desert, then the only way to get production from that desert tile is to found on it.

So why isn't the blue circle on the desert? Is the computer reluctant to found on resources? Is the blue circle telling us that there IS a resource on the desert tile?

Maybe some worldbuilder exploration of blue circle lore is in order ...

dV
 
Good point!

I have done some very quick worldbuilder research, made four different islands with a desert and a hillplain, without any sea-resources, and checked where the blue circle appeared. If there were two irons or none irons, the circle appear at the hill. When there were iron in the desert the circle appeared in the hill, but when it were iron in the hill, the circle appeared in the desert. However, when I changed the place of the resource, the blue circle did not change. So basically, I wasn't much wiser. Maybe the circles were influenced by the rest of the map, or that they do not change. I don't think there are resources on any of the tiles.
 
Hmm ... two irons and none irons sounds like a golf game ... :lol: ;)

So no resources, and the blue circle prefers the hill to the desert. This tells us that the blue circle is not a confirmation of a resource on the desert (not a refutation of it, either, howerver). Nor do I have confirmation or refutation of a resource on the hill.

Looks like a decision analysis problem ... probabilities and utilities. ;)

dV
 
Maybe some worldbuilder exploration of blue circle lore is in order ...
From previous cfc threads, the AI doesn't know about hidden resources and the blue circles aren't based on them. Some have observed that the blue circles tend to favor balanced food resources. In this case both locations are the same food wise. So, I think the computer just has a preference for starting on the hill instead of the desert.
Long story short: the blue circle means nothing.
 
Getting the first WB out faster has to be better... Settle in place and work the hill for 2H (easy to test, but I'm going with my gut feeling here). Also wondering if we might be optics isolated to go with the theme.. (Maybe there are cannibals around though?)
 
Back
Top Bottom