News: WOTM 06 Pre-Game Discussion

[DaviddesJ]

I don't know how to create test games with the challenger settings, either. Maybe Gyathaar will help us?

 

[Bigben34]

Greetings,
About AI difficulties, you can generate a map then edit the file using wordpad and change the AI difficulty to anything for each player. It's pretty self explanatory after you open the file.
What I know about Difficulty levels, at least for the human player:
-Significant health and happiness bonus for every couple levels difference
-Significant extra archers/workers/(?settler) for easier levels
-Research bonus/penalty (I think 10% per level change)
-Production bonus
-Barbs are tougher/easier to kill ( I think 10% combat bonus per level)
-Upkeep bonuses/penalties
-Free techs at lower levels...
-AND THE KICKER: ON settler or chieftan huts FREQUENTLY yield workers/settlers. I think on settler it may approach 30% or more of the time. So... are there huts? If so... Huge bonus for AI's on epic...
However: This all depends on how the programmers scripted the AI's difficulty rating, compared to the level the human selects. If congruence is the rule, I suspect the programmers themselves may not even know how the AI responds to difficulty adjustments. Setting them to chieftan could potentially even make your game easier... So it warrants testing. I might add though, if it works properly then the CHALLENGER will be a HUGE STEP UP from normal. I"m up for the challenger version only if several of you will join me. I think it would be fun since island AI really sucks at fleet usage, except for in one area...
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As for the starting area, an equatorial island is very good for the settings used. We'll probably be a high tech/low production civ compared to other civ's starting islands, so that will add an extra twist, and I bet there's no iron on our home island I hope not, would make it more interesting. Do the moderators here ever use smartmap to make maps? They would be much more unpredictable, and if used properly generate some fantastic maps.

Let me know who's up for the challenger class after we ascertain whether AI will get free settlers/workers from huts, in addition to other bonuses.

Bigben34

 

[MarkM]

Did anyone ever create & upload a test game in the end? (just regular contender is fine) Thanks

 

[Ribannah]

I might add though, if it works properly then the CHALLENGER will be a HUGE STEP UP from normal.

I've done a bit of testing and it seems that this is indeed an enormous advantage to the AI. They can easily have five cities by the time you have two. It must be possible to catch up though. Anyway, I'm willing to give this a go.

 

[Bigben34]

Haha, we'll probably get nuked, but challenger sounds fun!
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(Edited out most of my earlier comments. from my 1v1 AI vs human testing on duel solid grass maps there seems to be no connection between the human difficulty rating and the AI's difficulty rating. The Ai gets a bonus to the first tech it researches, and the first of each type of unit it makes, but after that the research advantage seemed to be comparable to standard Monarch settings, so the only way is to test more fully a full blown test game. I posted one below, if it works properly)
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-I dont think AI will get anymore production bonuses or freebie starting units compared to usual monarch game (except from huts). I think these are adjusted based on the player's difficulty setting, not the AI's.
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Attached is a Test map, with settings of the game, and AI's set to Settler. I used extra large and various tiny islands. Rename the file extension as civwarlordswbsave, put in worldbuilder save folder for warlords, Then load Ragnar up and take a look...

Bigben34

 

[Gyathaar]

I don't know how to create test games with the challenger settings, either. Maybe Gyathaar will help us?

Save the game as a worlbuildersave, then open the worldbuildersave in notepad and change NOBLE to SETTLER for the AIs..
Alternatively, if you make a game without HOF mod, you can use my saveconvert program (found in util programs dir in modding forums) to convert the AIs difficulty level.

 

[Jastrow]

Did anyone ever create & upload a test game in the end? (just regular contender is fine) Thanks

I did, at post #33.

 

[slowrider]

Would you be willing to run the same test with the Challenger settings? I'd really be interested in the difference.

Save the game as a worlbuildersave, then open the worldbuildersave in notepad and change NOBLE to SETTLER for the AIs..
Alternatively, if you make a game without HOF mod, you can use my saveconvert program (found in util programs dir in modding forums) to convert the AIs difficulty level.

I'll give this a try tomorrow (Friday). If I can do the first one, the others will be a little time consuming but easy to do. I'll post my progress or lack thereof tomorrow either way.

 

[Bigben34]

(Edited out this note; see previous comment)

 

[DaviddesJ]

After a restless night of reflection, I would like to ask if you'd be willing to post a special mid-challenger difficulty level with AI set to Warlord instead of Settler?

That sounds like an idea for future GOTMs, after we see how this one works out.

 

[slowrider]

Here are the average and (minimum-maximum) turns based on running 10 test games on the challanger settings. They are a little faster than the contender settings and interestingly the AI sometimes seems to blow off Stonehenge, the Prymaids and Colussus finishing very late if at all.


Buddism 15 (8-30)
Hindu 28 (12-39)
Judism 54 (37-69)
Confu 90 (72-105)
Christ 125 (112-147)
Tao 154 (141-180)
Islam 186 (151-202)

Stonehenge 156 (67-225+) >225 5x
Oracle 122 (77-157)
Gr Wall 144 (67-225)
Gr Light 157 (114-187)
Pyramids 202 (159-225+) >225 4x
Temp of Arm 152 (115-221)
Parth 201 (159-225+) 5x
Hang Gard 179 (134-220)
Great Lib 162 (131-2100
Colssus 205 (159-225+) >225 6x


Circumnav 190 (177-197)
Liberalism 212 (198-231)

 

[Bigben34]

Regarding the wonder times, I dont' think the production values change any in the challenger setting, and I think your statistics confirm that. I suspect they just start them a bit sooner with better developed cities. I don't think there's much of a statisctically significant difference for the wonder times between the classes.
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OK: I edited an all grass challenger test map, putting 150 huts for the AI to explore. Almost half of the huts yielded workers/settlers for the AIs, 2/3 of them being settlers. This alone would account for most of the differences in the religious teching times slowrider found.
So the only major category left to test would be if the Challenger AI gets extra bonuses for maintenance costs, which could be a significant factor. But I'm starting to like this months challenger class
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Edit: Saturday 5:00 pm EST. Well, for better or for worse, I'm going in!!!

 

[slowrider]

Regarding the wonder times, I dont' think the production values change any in the challenger setting, and I think your statistics confirm that. I suspect they just start them a bit sooner with better developed cities. I don't think there's much of a statisctically significant difference for the wonder times between the classes.
---------------
OK: I edited an all grass challenger test map, putting 150 huts for the AI to explore. Almost half of the huts yielded workers/settlers for the AIs, 2/3 of them being settlers. This alone would account for most of the differences in the religious teching times slowrider found.
So the only major category left to test would be if the Challenger AI gets extra bonuses for maintenance costs, which could be a significant factor. But I'm starting to like this months challenger class
---------------
Edit: Saturday 5:00 pm EST. Well, for better or for worse, I'm going in!!!

It does look like the main benefit to the AI with the Challenger settings (regarding religions/wonders) is related to a faster tech pace. All of the religions are founded significantly faster as is circumnavigation and liberalism. Only two wonders, the Great Library and Hanging Gardens, are done faster (on average) and they rely on more advanced techs than do the other wonders. It is interesting that Stonehenge, the Oracle and the Pyramids are finished significantly slower (again on average).

 

[g_storrow]

Just a question found from last WOTM.

Can you take a civ with longbow man with an army made up of maceman/catapults? I find I wait too long to attack and find out that longbowman are with my enemy. What woudl peopel use to attack with a civ with longbowman

 

[Thrallia]

Cats and Maces can almost always take down a bunch of longbowmen.

That was what fueled the end of my WOTM5 conquest...Maces and cats against Saladin and HC's longbows.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can you take a civ with longbow man with an army made up of maceman/catapults? I find I wait too long to attack and find out that longbowman are with my enemy. What woudl peopel use to attack with a civ with longbowman

Use the best units you have to hand

Seriously, cats and maces are fine against longbows, provided you are prepared to sacrifice the first few cats that attack. Heck, on numerous occasions I've taken longbow-defended cities with cats and swords before now. As long as you're willing to lose a fair proportion of your units, it works. Sometimes you don't have a choice, especially if the AI is teching faster than you and therefore will get even more advanced if you wait. In warlords, if you can realistically hang on till you get trebuchets, they'll be able to tackle longbows with smaller, but still significant, losses. CG-promoted longbows are powerful though. Until you get grenadiers (or lots of CRIII promotions) whatever you throw at them will take significant losses.

 

[da_Vinci]

Use the best units you have to hand

Seriously, cats and maces are fine against longbows, provided you are prepared to sacrifice the first few cats that attack. Heck, on numerous occasions I've taken longbow-defended cities with cats and swords before now. As long as you're willing to lose a fair proportion of your units, it works. Sometimes you don't have a choice, especially if the AI is teching faster than you and therefore will get even more advanced if you wait. In warlords, if you can realistically hang on till you get trebuchets, they'll be able to tackle longbows with smaller, but still significant, losses. CG-promoted longbows are powerful though. Until you get grenadiers (or lots of CRIII promotions) whatever you throw at them will take significant losses.

I have only played two warlords games so far, but I find that trebs are the antidote to longbows. I bring a mix of trebs with CR promotions and cats with barrage promotions, sac the cats (2 or 3, they are cheap), by which time the longbows are hurting enough that the CR trebs take them out without losses in most cases, and the foot mop up.

The barrage cats are also good if you encounter an enemy stack in the open field.

dV

 

[Erkon]

In warlords, if you can realistically hang on till you get trebuchets, they'll be able to tackle longbows with smaller, but still significant, losses.

I used trebuchets against Riflemen (fortified and garrison promoted on hills) in WOTM3. I had to sacrifice a couple though but I got the cities

 

[The Navy Seal]

I hope there are some more resources that pop up later!