Newt Gingrich: Let's End Adolescence

[Narz]

But if you really think I did demonize you for something like this, feel free to PM me just exactly where I did it.

I don't recall the thread.

And I think you're partially missing the point too Narz. The reason that kids today are "yoo young" to handle sex is because of the way we raise them now. They don't know anything about responsibility because they're supposed to learn that in freakin college, or when they look for their first real job.

I'm not missing your point, I agree.

Get it? If you place the burden of responsibility on teenagers, then they will act like young adults. If you tell them that doing drugs is normal, then they'll go out and do drugs. If you tell them that they can only fail two grades, then they'll fail their two grades and get pushed through the rest of their schooling. If you tell them sex is cool and everybody does it, so do it, then they're not going to form meaningful mature relationships, nor understand the full effects or consequences of their actions.

Newts entire premise is creating a situation in which there is more importance on growing up, acting mature, acting responsible, being a responsible cog in society, doing what is right, and getting your freakin' act together.

Yup, and the entire goal is to generate young people that aren't naive in the first place. That's what we're doing now. That's what adolescence as we know it is. It's a time opened up for teenagers to be naive. It's a time that's been created where society as a whole turns a blind eye to anything that children or young adults do wrong.

The thing is, there's a lot more money in impulsive, immature kids they there is in smart, thrifty kids. "Teen culture" makes billions a year. Not to mention the college loan companies alone make a fortune off these kids. These days getting a loan (instead of earning money before college) is "normal". Getting a loan to buy a house is "normal". People care more about their friggin' FICO score than their loved one's health, let alone their neighbors.

It's a lot deeper than just pansy-ass parents afraid to set limits (though that's definitely part of it).

It's not curiousity that makes kids break rules.

It's part of it.

It's the fact that there are no consequences to breaking the rules that opens the door to children running the show and doing whatever the hell it is they want to do anyway.

It's fine to point that prohibition is wrong. But it's completely innaccurate to state it drives people to do it anyway. Kids don't have sex in the middle east. People cheat and sleep around far, far, far less in the middle east than they do anywhere else on earth.

I'm skeptical. People probably cheat much, much, much more carefully (especially women since it can get them killed and all).

The Middle East is the opposite extreme.

Yes, kids won't do what they don't think they can't get away with, I agree. The problem with this country is that we tell kids certain things are wrong but we don't tell them why & then we bail them out when they get into their messes.

Mixed messages. And admonishion without consequences. Surely you aren't suggesting we become more like the Middle East though?

Anyhow, I gotta go to grandma's for dinner. I'll hit up the rest later.

Enjoy. My aunt-in-law got a free-range turkey, I'm gonna have some for the first time in about four or five years.

 

[Trajan12]

The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. So consider this simple proposal: High school students who can graduate a year early get the 12th year's cost of schooling as an automatic scholarship to any college or technical school they want to attend. If they graduate two years early, they get two years of scholarships. At no added cost to taxpayers, we would give students an incentive to study as hard as they can and maximize the speed at which they learn.

Once we decide to engage young people in real life, doing real work, earning real money, and thereby acquiring real responsibility, we can transform being young in America. And our nation will become more competitive in the process.

Now this is where I have to start applauding, despite how much I look down on Gingrich. Young people who can handle more responsibility ought to be given more responsibility, and not just allowed to let their talent fizzle and spoil.

 

[C~G]

Person actually thinks you could "end" something that has become the most popular thing in culture.

Somebody should give him the reality check.

 

[Lord Neil]

Most of the stuff I read there is nonsense. I am sixteen and barely any of those things are true at my school (which is in Canada). If you are really trying in school, adolescence is not a waste of time. The things being taught in physics, chemistry, math, computer science; basically all the academic classes were not even taught in universities ten years ago. Actually some of this stuff isn't even taught in American universities.

Of the drug studies and the poorer families that is a completely different situation. There is nothing stopping them from starting work at the age of thirteen except no one would hire them when there are more qualified employees. High schools give adolescences a chance at achieving greater things in life but only if they apply themselves. If you want to solve the problem don't eliminate adolescence and high schools just get people to try harder.

 

[Merkinball]

Alright, to finish Narz's last post:

The more you keep them in the dark & try to control them, the less able they are to be have to handle themselves in said situations & the more likely they are to act impulsively. Like the stupid overprotective dad who doesn't want his daughter to have sex 'till 40 who ends up with a little slut. - Narz

This is a multi faceted issue when it comes to society in general. It's not a singularity in and of itself. Over-protective parents are indeed a problem, but hte solution is not to let children or teenagers to go all willy-nilly either. Young adults and children need to earn space from their parents. Otherwise, they should be completely, totally, and utterly controlled. Much like a mother controls a two year old child to ensure that they don't severely hurt themselves. As children grow, mature, and learn right from wrong, they gradually exude an aura of responsibility and earn a little extra length on the leash. By the time a kid is fourteen or fifteen he or she should be able to prove to their parents that they are essentially mature adults, capable of consistently making mature adult decisions in a responsible manner. If they can't, then they deserve to live life in the bedroom in an isolated fashion.

On the flip side, I agree with feeding kids information. And I would hope that this is a part of what Gingrich is talking about. If you succinctly and tersely feed children information, and make them eat the consequences of their actions, they will act accordingly. But if kids go out on Halloween and vandalize the town, but get slapped on the wrist, they're not going to learn. If they molest an 11 year old girl on a school bus and end up in counseling, they're not going to learn. If they throw a book in school and bust a chicks nose, and get no punishment at all, they're not going to learn. If a chick gets knocked up and gets an abortion, odds are she's not going to learn, or she's gonna learn a really horrible lesson. If a kid does heroin and dies...well, I guess that's adolescense.

But if you have a society that adequately punishes, if you take away some of the hammocks that exist, then children will be more apt to become functioning adults at an earlier age and make proper responsible decisions along the way. Like poor Arab kids, or poor Indian kids, or poor Korean kids. They will have some sense about them that it's their job to get an education, that education is useful, and that adult actions carry adult consequences. As a society though, we're not communicating this, and it's largely the fault of parents.

The whole argument that young adults deserve more rights & responsibilities is a good one but we shouldn't give the rights "so they're stop doing drugs and having sex", we should give them rights so they'll be allowed to have other opportunities - Narz

Well, the entire argument eventually comes full circle. I would agree that we should give them more rights and responsibilities so that they increase their opportunities in life. Stopping the drugs and stopping the sex is a part of that equation though. Ultimately you cannot have one without the other. If young adults or teenagers are making poor decisions about sex and drugs, then they are most likely going to be making poor decisions which will disproportionately effect their ability to increase their future opportunities anyway.

The thing is, there's a lot more money in impulsive, immature kids they there is in smart, thrifty kids. "Teen culture" makes billions a year. - Narz

This seems to be another deflection. If you educate children on personal finances, then they won't make stupid decisions.

It's a lot deeper than just pansy-ass parents afraid to set limits (though that's definitely part of it). - Narz

True, but pansy-ass parents are ultimately the most important facet in raising a children. And now primary school and high school seem to act more like a daycare center for young adults than anything else. When you couple bad parents that were raised in a debauched public school system and their kids ending up in the same debauched school system, you're going to have massive problems as a complete and total society. And well -- wake up America.

I'm skeptical. People probably cheat much, much, much more carefully (especially women since it can get them killed and all). - Narz

I believe that you can judge a societies level of promiscuity and cheating on the level of STD's within that society. Arabia is pretty much devoid of such issues. It's definitely not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but their attitudes about relationships and marriage in the middle east are completely different from America. And societally speaking, in many ways they are much stronger. Again, it's not perfect, but they don't have problems with teenaged girls getting pregnant. They don't have problems of out of wedlock births. They don't have single parent problems. They don't have drug problems. And they don't have STD issues. And most of the people that hang out in areas where prostitution is prevelant are westerners (in Dubai, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc, etc.)

The problem with this country is that we tell kids certain things are wrong but we don't tell them why & then we bail them out when they get into their messes.

Mixed messages. And admonishion without consequences. Surely you aren't suggesting we become more like the Middle East though?

I would have a tendency to agree. Now, certainly I don't think we should be bundling our women birqas and beating them for looking at another man, or stoning 14 year old girls in city squares because some guy raped them. But there are elements of such societies that are more than worth emulating. And ultimately we will lose out if we don't. Arabs are busy building fantastic cities in the deserts from scratch...while we're busy bailing out banks and automakers. Our educational system is in shambles. A lot of our young women have no respect for themselves, and our men have very little respect for women. We're not culturing functioning responsible adults. We generally have little respect for one another (look at our incarceration rates), we kill one another, we're dirty, we litter...the list goes on and on.

The idea that examining the positive aspects of our 18th century or 19th century living, or examining positive aspects of societies of the middle east and some developing nations would inherently mean that we'd be reverting on a societal level is a complete joke. It's a total joke. Fidelity is important. Children need two parents. Parents need to be able to raise children in stable homes. Education in a globalized world is extremely important. And if we don't learn this, then we're gonna quickly find ourselves trying to figure out how to catch back up to the middle east, India, Korea, and China. They're going to outpace us. They have a better work ethic. They respect education and understand that it's useful. These nations focus on important aspects of life FROM BIRTH. We focus on how to make a childs life easier from birth. While they are focusing on how to better their nations from within, we are trying to figure out to make our lives easier and more fun. If we continue down this road, we're going to find ourselves behind, and it'll probably be sooner rather than later.

Person actually thinks you could "end" something that has become the most popular thing in culture.

Somebody should give him the reality check. - C ~ G

This is why Democrats win elections.

Young people who can handle more responsibility ought to be given more responsibility, and not just allowed to let their talent fizzle and spoil. - Trajan

But in American society, this isn't fair. And life is about being fair. It's a right you know.

 

[Trajan12]

Ultimately it comes down to society conflating Age with Wisdom. The notion that, until you reach a certain age you can never responsibly do X, and once you reach a certain age you are magically a responsible adult is the danger. You're just going to have a bunch of big babies with adult privileges who, in truth, haven't learned how to do anything responsibly. If you have laws and regulations preventing people from advancing in the weight of the responsibilities they can shoulder, they will stagnate until one day it knocks them back like a haymaker. The rights of minors should be steady and progressive and not just about crossing a threshold.

 

[Narz]

Arabs are busy building fantastic cities in the deserts from scratch...while we're busy bailing out banks and automakers.

Without oil money, Arabia is screwed.

Trying to emulate Arabia would be going backwards. Brainwashing the population with strict religious indoctrination & massively restricting freedom (women can't drive, men can't look at their faces) is not exactly a step in the right direction. I don't think STD's are a good measure of the sexual health of a society, that guy who raped his daughters (forgot how many of 'em) for 25 years & had eight more semi-******** kids by them (and a couple dozen abortions & miscarriages) probably didn't have any STD's either. I'd imagine there's just as much, if not more, rape, it just goes unreported (for obvious reasons).

As for your other points, I agree with most to some degree and the ones I disagree with it's not passionately enough to warrant a lengthy reply.

IMO, the recession/depression won't be another '87 or post-9/11. This one won't end until we revamp our entire economy & culture. If that doesn't happen, it won't end.

Well people talk about "unsustainable" it's not just hippie-gobbledeegook, it definition is quite literal.

Adolescence is part of all that. It only is possible to have this prolonged childhood, sheltered from work & responsibility in a society with enough wealth where dependents can remain money drains for 22, 23+ years, often longer. This wealth is dependent on cheap fossil fuels & a stable economy, both of which are coming to an end (yes, yes, I know gas is $1.50 a gallon, enjoy it while it lasts).

The age of exuberance & entitlement is on it's way out. Within one or two more Christmases it'll be gone for good. Good riddance. We're lucky if we get out of this alive.

 

[GoodGame]

I think Gingrich makes a case for a better focus on values in education, and potentially a stronger focus on vocational training, but I can't agree with his assertion that adolescence is pure fabrication. Gingrich is a historian, BTW, not trained in child education. He's basically saying put them work, they don't need no edumcation.

 

[MobBoss]

While we're at it, we should go back to riding bicycles everywhere and getting rid of computers.

Might help with all the fatty people. Certainly wouldnt hurt more than a few.

 

[choxorn]

Nah, let's keep the computers, but get rid of some of the cars and ride bicycles more.

 

[Merkinball]

Without oil money, Arabia is screwed. - Narz

The United Arab Emirates is not constructing their crown jewels with oil money. The truly prosperous Arab nations are no longer focusing on oil. They've long looked to the future and began diversifying their portfolios so to speak. To such an extent that oil makes up but a mere small portion of the UAE's annual GDP. Again, these people are not stupid. They are outstripping us in many ways. Arabia is going to continue to advance with or without oil.

Trying to emulate Arabia would be going backwards. Brainwashing the population with strict religious indoctrination & massively restricting freedom (women can't drive, men can't look at their faces) is not exactly a step in the right direction. - Narz

I'm not religious. I don't like religion. I don't want people brainwashed, and I don't want to restrict freedom. You're playing what the initial detractors played. You're distorting an argument because you cannot reject the crux of the argument. We don't need strict religious indoctrination and to restrict freedoms in order to emulate the positive aspects of Arabian society. We simply need to emulate the positive aspects of Arabian society and other third world nations while rejecting the negative aspects.

I'd imagine there's just as much, if not more, rape, it just goes unreported (for obvious reasons). - Narz

There's not. Take a trip to the middle east someday. Cohabitat within that society. Rape is extremely frowned upon in all sectors. It just doesn't happen. Well, I mean, it happens, but it is extremely rare.

He's basically saying put them work, they don't need no edumcation. - GoodGame

I'm pretty sure that he's basically saying everybody needs to start achieving at higher level academically.