Next Civ game most likely will be a fantasy game

In fact, Robinson's first published story, in Analog (a magazine devoted entirely to 'hard' science fiction), received a lot of irate reader comments because it had "no science fiction" in it: he had simply taken the classic trope of Time Travel and turned it around: instead of a person traveling in time, what if time traveled and the person didn't? His point in the comment I mentioned was that the published fantasy had become all too often, also standardized and therefore not much fantasy at all.
Any game that pretends to be 'fantasy' while using common tropes or already-published works runs the risk of also being regurgitated fantasy and therefore not fantastic, just familiar - and all too often comfortable and Dull.

Literary theorist Todorov writes that the "fantastic" exists in that space when the laws of the world are upended and anything seems possible. It quickly devolves into other genres (the uncanny, when the appearance of the fantastic turns out to be a misapprehension of real events - e.g. in Poe, or the marvelous, when new laws are discovered - e.g. in Harry Potter). Cultivating that sense of wonder is the real draw towards fantastic literature, for Todorov, and for me.
 
If they do a fantasy game it should be a Fall From Heaven game, just like how Beyond Earth was Alpha Centauri and Rise and Fall came from Rhyes and Fall.
 
Is anyone interested in a Malaysian flying female head with dangling entrails representing vampires in a fantasy-based Civ game? :mischief:

 
Literary theorist Todorov writes that the "fantastic" exists in that space when the laws of the world are upended and anything seems possible. It quickly devolves into other genres (the uncanny, when the appearance of the fantastic turns out to be a misapprehension of real events - e.g. in Poe, or the marvelous, when new laws are discovered - e.g. in Harry Potter). Cultivating that sense of wonder is the real draw towards fantastic literature, for Todorov, and for me.

To sort of bring us back to the topic of "Game = History or Fantasy?", I'd have to admit that History is, by Todorov's definition, "uncanny", in that most of it is a misapprehension or reinterpretation of events because, given the incomplete nature of historical evidence and 'facts', it always includes speculation.* That is, to me, the back alley by which the fantastic can enter a historical game, not by way of the broad avenue of purely and ostentatiously fictional 'fantasy'.

* case in point: the book on the battle of Moscow that Jack and I are writing now, in which we have discovered that most of what people think they know about the battle - in both Russia and the West - is all or in part Fiction. Some of it, to be sure, Fiction purposely promulgated by a German officer corps desperate to avoid responsibility for idiotic decisions and their consequences, some of it patriotic pablum promoted by former Soviet and current Russian governments, and some of it a complete misunderstanding by later historians of what was actually happening in the front lines, on the ground, to and by the troops of both sides. All the facts will never be known (because, by definition, a varying number of the participants in military events do not survive the event, so their experienced reality is lost) but the facts now available from unit records of both sides at all levels paint a very different and, compared with the popular histories in all the languages, a very 'uncanny' misapprehension of what was actually happening.

Final Note: Science Fiction has been defined as speculation on the consequences of current technological/social/psychological trends. BUT, one of the all-time great commenters on Science Fiction, John W. Campbell (legendary editor of Analog magazine at the end of the 'Golden Age' of hard science fiction) pointed out that science fiction has an abysmal track record of actually predicting trends or consequences. His famous example was the moon anding in 1969, an event depicted in 100s or 1000s of science fiction stories dating back to the very beginning of modern science fiction. Not one of the myriad stories predicted or speculated, that the event would be Televised . . .
 
Is anyone interested in a Malaysian flying female head with dangling entrails representing vampires in a fantasy-based Civ game? :mischief:

ผีกระสือ in Thai - stories of these things are all around the region. I have a running debate with another academic about why. I think it's evidence of sharing of folk myths from a long time ago and inter-regional connections beyond the "official" Sanskrit/Pali stuff. He thinks it's a very recent thing that followed a popular Thai film in the mid-20th century.
 
Is anyone interested in a Malaysian flying female head with dangling entrails representing vampires in a fantasy-based Civ game? :mischief:


Imo creatures like that one and the jiang shi need to be in full blown horror games to not look silly.

Moderator Action: Post edited to remove gif spam. ~ LK
 
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ผีกระสือ in Thai - stories of these things are all around the region. I have a running debate with another academic about why. I think it's evidence of sharing of folk myths from a long time ago and inter-regional connections beyond the "official" Sanskrit/Pali stuff. He thinks it's a very recent thing that followed a popular Thai film in the mid-20th century.

Never underestimate the ability of people to manufacture Mythology from very strange sources. My old mentor, Dr Eugene Borza used to comment on the Romance of Alexander (he was one of the Alexander the Great experts in the USA at the time) that included 'tall tales' and stories about Alexander from countries as far removed from anywhere Alexander actually set foot as Finland and Burma! In most cases, he was simply added to existing stories, or had existing stories retold around him, because his own exploits were so unbelievable that he fit right in as a fantasy element - Strange and Awesome And From Somewhere Else. It helped, of course, that he had as his 'sidekick' the Wizard Aristotle, who also appears in several stories about Alexander in nearly unrecognizable form . . .
 
Latam has a similar thing going on with La Llorona which has regional variants from México all the way down to Argentina (and that's ignoring it's resemblance to other legends such as the Banshees)
 
I would still like to see an updated Call To Power. :)

Call To Power had a host of really, really good ideas in it hat were almost all wretchedly badly implemented, and many of which have been incorporated into later games.

BUT what is still 'unique' to CTP, and could stand being updated into a new game, was the Near Future Options: cities under the ocean to exploit resources there, cities or some kind of serious habitations in Orbit, city improvements from 25 - 50 years in the future. It made a real game element out of 'Future Tech' that I would love to see added to a future Civ or other 4X 'historical' game.
 
There is no need for another fantasy Civ game. Sorry.

Maybe some scenarios or some optional DLC as an addition. That would make sense.
 
Is anyone interested in a Malaysian flying female head with dangling entrails representing vampires in a fantasy-based Civ game? :mischief:


I think that would be awesome!!!

Culturally distinct vampires would be a neat touch

Bwa ha ha the Americans get Twilight Vampires

To sort of bring us back to the topic of "Game = History or Fantasy?", I'd have to admit that History is, by Todorov's definition, "uncanny", in that most of it is a misapprehension or reinterpretation of events because, given the incomplete nature of historical evidence and 'facts', it always includes speculation.* That is, to me, the back alley by which the fantastic can enter a historical game, not by way of the broad avenue of purely and ostentatiously fictional 'fantasy'.

* case in point: the book on the battle of Moscow that Jack and I are writing now, in which we have discovered that most of what people think they know about the battle - in both Russia and the West - is all or in part Fiction. Some of it, to be sure, Fiction purposely promulgated by a German officer corps desperate to avoid responsibility for idiotic decisions and their consequences, some of it patriotic pablum promoted by former Soviet and current Russian governments, and some of it a complete misunderstanding by later historians of what was actually happening in the front lines, on the ground, to and by the troops of both sides. All the facts will never be known (because, by definition, a varying number of the participants in military events do not survive the event, so their experienced reality is lost) but the facts now available from unit records of both sides at all levels paint a very different and, compared with the popular histories in all the languages, a very 'uncanny' misapprehension of what was actually happening.

Final Note: Science Fiction has been defined as speculation on the consequences of current technological/social/psychological trends. BUT, one of the all-time great commenters on Science Fiction, John W. Campbell (legendary editor of Analog magazine at the end of the 'Golden Age' of hard science fiction) pointed out that science fiction has an abysmal track record of actually predicting trends or consequences. His famous example was the moon anding in 1969, an event depicted in 100s or 1000s of science fiction stories dating back to the very beginning of modern science fiction. Not one of the myriad stories predicted or speculated, that the event would be Televised . . .

A LOT of current “history” right now is almost hilariously bad because so much of it is ideology driven

You are fortunate in that you can dodge a lot of that in the particular topic you are writing about.
 
. . . A LOT of current “history” right now is almost hilariously bad because so much of it is ideology driven

You are fortunate in that you can dodge a lot of that in the particular topic you are writing about.

Hah! Don't I wish. The "Great Patriotic War" as it is called in Russia, is a very touchy subject among Russians. On the one hand, Jack and I have met some wonderful historians via the internet, helpful and generous with their own work and gratifiyingly appreciative of ours. On the other hand, we have been criticized because, basically, some people cannot understand how any Foreigner could possibly write about or understand Their War. The fact that these 'foreigners' have been writing using the documents from the Russian/Soviet and German archives produced by the military units at the time from both sides and specifically pointing out where one or both of them are wrong, obviously lying, or simply ignorant of what was happening on the ground (the higher up the chain of command you go, the more likely that is) still produces nasty reactions from people who don't want their already-established view of What Happened to be modified in any way by inconvenient Facts.

This is a phenomena neither exclusive to historical subjects nor exclusive to any one group. Years ago I watched while a British historian who had dared to write a new interpretation of the American Civil War got torn to literary shreds by an audience of American Civil War amateur historians. It mattered less how or whether his points were valid: the fact that he was questioning their firmly held beliefs about the war and that he was a Foreigner writing about 'their' war was enough for them to show no mercy.
 
Hah! Don't I wish. The "Great Patriotic War" as it is called in Russia, is a very touchy subject among Russians. On the one hand, Jack and I have met some wonderful historians via the internet, helpful and generous with their own work and gratifiyingly appreciative of ours. On the other hand, we have been criticized because, basically, some people cannot understand how any Foreigner could possibly write about or understand Their War. The fact that these 'foreigners' have been writing using the documents from the Russian/Soviet and German archives produced by the military units at the time from both sides and specifically pointing out where one or both of them are wrong, obviously lying, or simply ignorant of what was happening on the ground (the higher up the chain of command you go, the more likely that is) still produces nasty reactions from people who don't want their already-established view of What Happened to be modified in any way by inconvenient Facts.

This is a phenomena neither exclusive to historical subjects nor exclusive to any one group. Years ago I watched while a British historian who had dared to write a new interpretation of the American Civil War got torn to literary shreds by an audience of American Civil War amateur historians. It mattered less how or whether his points were valid: the fact that he was questioning their firmly held beliefs about the war and that he was a Foreigner writing about 'their' war was enough for them to show no mercy.

Oh boy ya the various flavours of irrational nationalists have gotten absolutly redonkulus, it almost makes me miss the heyday of the “Wehraboos” back in the 70’s and 80’s as they were way less toxic and at least had some grounding in reality.
 
Oh boy ya the various flavours of irrational nationalists have gotten absolutly redonkulus, it almost makes me miss the heyday of the “Wehraboos” back in the 70’s and 80’s as they were way less toxic and at least had some grounding in reality.
"'Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,' says Wernher von Braun." :D
 
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Apparently Firaxis has several games in development, so we may get a fantasy and sci-fi Civ.

Civilization devs have “several” games in development that will be revealed “this year” | PCGamesN

"We expect this growth to continue as the studio has several exciting projects in development that will be revealed this year" - Strauss Zelnick, CEO Take Two.

- Take-Two Interactive (TTWO) Q4 2021 Earnings Call Transcript | The Motley Fool
FINALLY! A definitive answer that a human mind can actually comprehend, and it doesn't have the vagueness of the Greek Oracle, haha!! :lol:

This is a happy day indeed, although there is also some sorrow in me, as this pretty much confirms that Civ 6 is ending. Then again, we have our conspiracy theorists here... :mischief:
 
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