Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

[fe3333au]

Chat with Daghie

fe3333au: hey drummer man
sixpackholiday: hello Iron

Better feelings between our two teams
fe3333au: I feel that KISSMIA is getting close to how it was before the strained level
sixpackholiday: hope so. haven't updated myself really
fe3333au: Had a chat to Whomp ... and we sent Mathematics in good faith
sixpackholiday: nice

Bottom Line about rest of techs
fe3333au: but will not send the other techs until republic has been researched ... this is as per our signed agreement with you ... I believe that is was actually your clause

Reason ... to hide our alliance
fe3333au: it is to hide our alliance from others
sixpackholiday: yeah, well I actually see no bigger reason to keep our relations covered anymore ... it'll be obvious anyway and they cannot do anything about it ... just see us disappear
fe3333au: We do ... as we are openly at least communicating with them ... and getting reports on how the war is going
sixpackholiday: that's good

War reports
sixpackholiday: what's the standing
fe3333au: Nuts say that there has been no fighting recently ... TNT say they just had a victory
sixpackholiday: are the reports trustworthy you think?
fe3333au: one is right LOL
sixpackholiday: heh
fe3333au: we suspect that TNT is lying however Nuts are very slippery in their double dealings ... Nuts is trying to play both of us against each other
sixpackholiday: war reports are often....shall we say "coloured"
fe3333au: yes ... LOL
sixpackholiday: that's the only way they can play

After Republic swap
fe3333au: We are also proposing that you research Construction and we do Poly and then we swap and together enter the MA together ... with equal knowledge
sixpackholiday: Thatb would be nice, but how to handle your free tech

The free MA Tech
fe3333au: LOL how did I know you would mention that
sixpackholiday:
fe3333au: I prosoded the following ...

> No more trading with Battle Islanders
> MIA go flat out to Educatuion ... this will neutralise the Great Library
> KISS will research other MA techs
> then only after Great Library is no longer a threat ... we swap MA techs

fe3333au: We chose to go after education as we will probably be able to get there quicker
sixpackholiday: hm, interesting
fe3333au: but you can go for it if you want to

Attacking Battle Isle
sixpackholiday: and the overseas mission when we have chiv/powder
fe3333au: The military would be something to discuss ... we are interested and of course will support your actions ... but we also see things from our POV ... which may differ slightly ... so that is something to discuss later ... We also would need to formally agree to this sort of thing
sixpackholiday: lots to consider
fe3333au: yes

A Toast to Green Alliance
fe3333au: We feel that together we can leave these fighting idiots behind in our tech wake
sixpackholiday: hopefully we can

< missed this ... middle of the Warrir issue >
sixpackholiday: if they do not co-op and we refuse trading they have to do everything by themselves of course

Recent Worker/ Warrior Interaction
fe3333au: also tubby sent a PM ... our warrior is in the way of a proposed road ... we will move him next turn
sixpackholiday: thanks ... I'm about to play that turn i think
fe3333au: Whomp said it was ok if we wander around ... just as long as we respect your boarders
sixpackholiday: that's our agreement IIRC
fe3333au: yes ... but I just want to say what we are doing ... just in case some KISSers react in an angry fashion ... we want no more bad vibes
sixpackholiday: i don't think so, maybe a wee bit grumpy

Want KISS to have record to see our goodwill
fe3333au: you will post this as well please?
sixpackholiday: i will
fe3333au: I can edit it for you if you like
sixpackholiday: no that's ok but thanks ... I always cut out the spread legs parts anyway
fe3333au: LOL ... I cut and paste so that conversations flow ... cos sometimes there can be more than one thread happening at the same time
fe3333au: and give headings
sixpackholiday: especially when +2 pop
fe3333au: yes ... that is like trying to talk with a mob

< This was lost due to Daghie thinking war stuff >
fe3333au: The other thing I want in the agreement is that perhaps another team suggests a deal ... it would have to be discussed before agreement between us

Missions Military and Abroad
sixpackholiday: but on overseas mission i take it MIA is not intersted in shipping any troops?
fe3333au: Overseas ... I believe we would be eager to send troops ... but it would first be discussed before we would agree ... it may be that we see Nuts to be a bigger threat ... don't know ... will have to see
sixpackholiday: we'll see how the war develops
fe3333au: We will certainly agree to not assist the other team ... and you would as well

First things first
sixpackholiday: yes, well first let's try to get the Big Deal done in a nice fashion, then let's make up plans for the future ... the Green future LOL
fe3333au: Anyway I would expect that much discussion would happen between us before any war was declared
sixpackholiday: certainly ... hooray for active diplomacy
fe3333au: So I guess we will await your responce to things ... btw we are popping our final goody hut soon

Hut Popping
sixpackholiday: good luck....to both of us
fe3333au: we are going for non-Republic tech ... we may get Monachy ... which is useless to us
sixpackholiday: you'll get a map
fe3333au: we have before ... useless NOT a singel tile was unknown before ... The previous one was cash

Recap for Daghie
sixpackholiday: just to get things a bit clear. the reason for keeping our alliance hidden is that you want to keep getting war reports, nich wahr?
fe3333au: yes ... and get insites into what they are doing ... I suspect that Nuts may be building a temple
sixpackholiday: a temple?
fe3333au: they have taken ivory and wine ... so they have a city in TNT side of the island
fe3333au: It was a comment Robi made ... he said Rik said he was lucky to get Literature from a hut pop ... and then he said we are building rik a shrine ... so i think he maybe building a temple ... but that's just one way to look at it ... probably incorrect
sixpackholiday: prolly most that come from there are BS
fe3333au: however if they think KISS and MIA are not friendly ... we can't see just how they are trying to play us both for suckers
sixpackholiday: why not?
fe3333au: sorry we CAN see how they are playing us against each other ... or trying to
sixpackholiday: makes more sense lol

< Hidden agenda or Joke ??? >
sixpackholiday: if we blow our cover they might as well stop that and concentrate on TNT

sixpackholiday: one big green nation is untouchable
fe3333au: yes ... but also in our best interest for war to go on and on and on and on
sixpackholiday: pros and cons
fe3333au: I like to see them fighting and not expanding and researching
sixpackholiday: me too, absolutely, and i'm sure they will go on for a while
fe3333au: hope so LOL

Cya
sixpackholiday: nice chatting, will post

 

[peter grimes]

they have taken ivory and wine ... so they have a city in TNT side of the island

I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. Please check this map:
http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=75easterncrossing2hw.jpg

Quick and dirty, that links to the SOTE75, eastern crossing screenie, where you can see some grapes on the DNUT shore. There could be more there just out of view, which not only means that DNUTs don't necessarily have city on TNT side of things, but also Dnuts have a city near 'our furs' and another one near 'our wine'!

 

[fe3333au]

The TNT have Ivory as their common luxury ... this is why I suspect that the Nuts have a city built way up north

 

[fe3333au]

Just want to know ... so asking for everyone (including those that are in lurking mode at the moment) to post at the very least YES or NO

Are we absolutely adamant about going to wait for KISS to complete Republic prior to giving away any more knowledge ???

I am not going to post a poll ... and this will also be a judge of citizen numbers we are playing with.

 

[General_W]

I see no reason whatsoever to give them MORE tech before they give us Republic.

If they had some rationale for it &#8211; then fine. I don't mind helping an ally out. But this whole request just smells way too fishy to me.

If we're gonna give them more stuff early, there had better be a darn good reason for it!

 

[Chamnix]

There certainly is a rationale for giving them Map Making - they could build a harbor, and we could exchange luxuries sooner.

But they are not asking for just that as far as I know - they are demanding everything, and I agree that is fishy.

EDIT - Just thinking... they can say they have been accomodating to us by giving us Philosophy for nothing when we asked for it, but we have reciprocated by giving them The Wheel, Masonry (I think), and now Mathematics all for nothing. This time they are just asking for too much - they can wait 10 turns.

 

[peter grimes]

As much as I shudder at the thought of injecting any more tension into our relationship, I must say No to additional trades before Republic.

KISS must understand that it is they who are being unreasonably here. As I just mentioned about the tension injections - so too it is they who are holding the needle here.

The very act of asking for these things makes us suspicious. Whomp must hear us: Drop it now if you want the techs later! We're getting edgy for what is most likely no good reason at all.

 

[fe3333au]

Excellent MIA ... we are totally in agreement ... I just wanted to judge the attitude to this issue ... at the moment we are unanimous ... as I too feel this way, I am even of the opinion that we are acting totally with honour.

KISS have not only signed an agreement to swap techs when Republic has been discovered, but they penned the clause. (and then they go slow burn )


Come on the rest of the team what do you think?

At the moment the only member that has a legitimate excuse to remain silent is Azzaman333 who is currently on walkabout in Australian Desert !!!

 

[fe3333au]

Chat with Daghie ... The Talk will happen in XX hours ... I am on AIM ... contact me if you want to be part of this ....

Straight to the point
sixpackholiday: Hi Pyro ... on my way to work so very short
fe3333au: k
sixpackholiday: are you working on a revised version of the biggie?
fe3333au: waiting for you ... what is the problem with the initial agreement
sixpackholiday: aha, well I found a conversation between you and Whomp ... 10th dec IIRC

< This is the chat where Whomp assumed tech parity equated to us giving MM, Currency and Lit 11 turns before we would get Republic >

sixpackholiday: sounded very much like you would look it over again

Hardballing as was the unanimous decision
fe3333au: you supplied the clause and we both signed the agreement ... are you saying this is no longer acceptible?
sixpackholiday: i just saw that conversation and wanted to check up ... not saying anything

Blam !!! ... lets start straight talk ... sick of diplo-speak
fe3333au:
All of this is starting to disturb us
we don't know why you are acting as you do
as you can see
we will give ALL the techs
and you end up with the greater benefit if you add all the beakers
what exactly is KISS' problem ... we are very confused?

Dags got it smack bang in the face
sixpackholiday: please fe, i'm not the one to frown at here ... i see your points very well ... and i agree that they are very valid
fe3333au: I'm not upset ... but I am also the mouth piece of our team ... just trying to work out why things are tense
sixpackholiday: actually i have too limited time for this right now

Sorry I continued
fe3333au: From our point of view ... KISS and MIA agreed to how things would be
sixpackholiday: too delicate to just haste away
fe3333au: then suddenly you want to change things
sixpackholiday: i'll be back in approx 4hrs ... can we have a chat then?

< Sorry was on a roll and didn't see Dags needing to go >
fe3333au: Please write your concerns in a letter may be best ... I have now emptied PM box ... sorry it was full before
sixpackholiday: good, i tried...but failed

Finally noticed the proposed BIG CHAT in 4 hours
fe3333au: yes 4hrs would be fine ... I am home tonight
sixpackholiday: i can write something up about it, but please get in contact soon after you read it ... a wee phrasing can make a huge diff
fe3333au: But we have discussed things and cannot understand why you are willing to destroy all the benefits of us working together

Valid Point ... Dags is Swedish
sixpackholiday: i'm not english speaking remember
fe3333au: sorry just ask if you don't understand
sixpackholiday: i will do my very best to explaing some of my friends concerns
fe3333au: in 4 hours
sixpackholiday: yes
fe3333au: I look forward to it sir

But ... Stressing our point of view
fe3333au: but bottom line we expect you to honour agreement
sixpackholiday: no prob understanding that
fe3333au: but we do feel that you are playing games with us ... it started with the slow burn
sixpackholiday: and i'm sure we will

sixpackholiday: have to go now....sorry
fe3333au: so it is your own fault that you must wait for the tech swap
fe3333au: cya in 4
sixpackholiday: yup..
sixpackholiday signed off at 6:45:47 PM.

Two Hours ... and Counting ... tick tick tick !!!!

 

[fe3333au]

Ding Dong ... Daghie Calling

To business
sixpackholiday: thank god it's friday ... so one can relax and do some world politics, heh
fe3333au: yes I totally agree ... although I wish I was at the pub ... Yes diplomacy
sixpackholiday: the pub wants you too
fe3333au: They want my money

Here we go
sixpackholiday: anyway Pyro, I see you concerns regarding the deal ... the treaty says what it says
fe3333au: the deal about Republic swap?
sixpackholiday: x-cange techs when rep is in ... not before
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: i have no problem seeing that you are following that treaty ... and i think that's fine
fe3333au: Let me stress ... the deal when we swap KISS gets ALL our techs and it leaves only 2 to get before we go into MA
sixpackholiday: got it. i know whomper had questions on that but it's cleared out now ... i know we leave aa on tech parity
fe3333au: So I realise that you want to have all the techs now ... but I doubt that you would do this for us if the situation were reversed
sixpackholiday: yeah, i see that ... and i don't know of course

The slow burn ... a strange thing to do
fe3333au: This is why I was confused why you went slow burn on research
sixpackholiday: yes, you do have a point ther but the game mechanics says no big difference in turns ... 4-5 that's all ... we did get some cash and burnt it on embassies

Speaking about Embassies
sixpackholiday: but i hope you've recieved the screenies
fe3333au: Yes thanks

Back to that excuse
fe3333au: But let me say this
sixpackholiday: thet's most part of the gold we made on that
fe3333au: I spoke to Tubby he said we get Republic in 33 turns and that it could not be speeded up ... then suddenly it became 20 turns ... so please don't say that it is only 4 or 5 turns ... It is only 4 or 5 turns once we asked why it was going so slow
sixpackholiday: i don't know where he got that from or if i am missing something
fe3333au: It was a chat with Tubby
sixpackholiday: i only know that i recognize that from epics <solo> ... so i haven't questioned that
fe3333au: and when I said to him we have MM and would not give it up until we got republic ... then it became 20 turns
sixpackholiday: i'd have to go back and open the saves to be able to say something accurate on that

Bottom Line
fe3333au: Anyway ... we are adamant that we will not give techs early ... as per agreement that you actually wrote
sixpackholiday: dictionary time brb
fe3333au: adamant is we are firm in our resolve
sixpackholiday: ok, dead set.....lol
fe3333au: in our stance
sixpackholiday: eh....stubborn
fe3333au: just ask me what you don't understand and I will reword it ... no problem
sixpackholiday: thanks
fe3333au: LOL ... yes stubborn ... from your point of view
sixpackholiday: I don't think that you holding on is that big a problem ... i don't hope so

What is the Problem then
fe3333au: so if that is not an issue ... what is?
sixpackholiday: i'm not bringing in a big issue here ... let me try to explain ... easy now...
fe3333au: I only want to know why things seem stressed ... when things should be cool and groovey

I shut up and get the KISS point of view
fe3333au: ok
sixpackholiday:
we agreed on a deal that locked us up for a long time
we sort of chosed to do republic
not foced to
that has left us sitting on a fence
watching trading go on
while not being able to do anything
the techs that you will pay for rep
are all over the place
the agreement didn't say you couldn't do that
so no fault from your side
but people have gotten a bit frustrated by watching this
and to some extent you have informed us about the trades
and then some have just happened
i think the last one with TNT made our jaws drop to the floor
whatever good intentions you had
we've been bystanders
that is hard for some to take without getting jittery
and somewhat irritated
we feel left out
although no formal wrong doings from your side
i think that is the reason for the hesitation
i have all the time stressed that the treaty says what it says
and that it was a kind of vague one
in some respects
we will have to live with that if MIA won't acknowledge that and cut some slack
we put our seal on it so.....
i don't think there is any big mistrust that you will not fullfill your part
nothing in threads about that
well....
fe3333au: my turn ?
sixpackholiday: shoot buddy

< Thanks for openness ... bout time >
fe3333au: Thanks for the open account of your side of things ... I suspected something like that

Addressing the Tech Trading
fe3333au: The trades we done were done with the full intent of speeding our (KISSMIA) lead ... and we did fantastic deals ... we now only have 2 techs after the swap to research

Onwards?
fe3333au: So are we agreed that one of us will research Poly and the orther Construction?
sixpackholiday: AFAIK Yes
fe3333au: I am assuming that we still want to have an Alliance ... it would seem silly not to
sixpackholiday: i do think so
fe3333au: so I have sent you some proposed agreements

No Trading with Battle Islanders
fe3333au: 1. We do not trade with any Battle Islanders anymore
sixpackholiday: as long as they keep fighting we can expand and reseach and make our lead even bigger
fe3333au: I am sure they will approach us for deals ... we should keep each other informed
sixpackholiday: they will
fe3333au: and only trade if we both agree ... if one says no ... then we cannot ...
sixpackholiday: I think that's perfecly cool

But ???
sixpackholiday: but
fe3333au: My reason is that I feel you would only want to trade with Nuts ... and we don't want them getting strong
sixpackholiday: then again i feel that that was what was missing up until now
fe3333au: and we would probably want to trade little things with TNT ... which would make them be more of a threat to Nuts ... and you don't want that

They want to trade with Nuts methinks
sixpackholiday: suddenly when we have a very powerful tech, trading is off, but when you had the possibilty to trade everything just floated around
sixpackholiday: i that can be regarded as....unfair?
fe3333au: but our trading was not giving advantage to them
sixpackholiday: you know what...
fe3333au: we traded small tech and got very big techs in return ... and we tryed to trade the same techs to each of them ... so neither got advantaged over the other
sixpackholiday: i know that you're intentions probably were good ... and maybe your trades was good for both of us ... i'm not a numbers guy rmember

Here it comes
sixpackholiday: but this has not so much to do with rational #'s maybe
fe3333au: it has to do with TNT getting techs
sixpackholiday: a brief "what would you say about this" would've sufficed
fe3333au: I did mention it before it happened
sixpackholiday: the first deal i know ... i didn't pass it on ... and i have taken the blame for it
fe3333au: Anyway what is done is done ... and the next Agreement will be written better
sixpackholiday: i've said "fe told me, so don't blame him"
fe3333au: thanks

The Currency Deal
sixpackholiday: the last one was a chock ... and we felt totally left outside
fe3333au: I understand ... So shall we discuss the next step
sixpackholiday: just a minute..

Sorry Dags ... get it off ya chest mate
sixpackholiday: i'd like this alliance to work well and be maintained ... i advocate that a lot within team
fe3333au: me too
sixpackholiday: most agree
fe3333au: us too
sixpackholiday: you sent math which was a nice gesture ... and much appreciated
fe3333au: we didn't even have to debate that one ... everyone agreed ... well all 5 of us LOL
sixpackholiday: we gave you the screenies as compensation for the g's we made on slow research ... we have made nice moves both of us ... and some not so nice

< OK interesting perspective, your POV >
sixpackholiday: we will try to avoid those from now on
fe3333au: that was very welcomed ... we did check that you sending your capital was ok before we looked ... in fact I havn't looked yet LOL
sixpackholiday: yes, i blacked out some areas as not to violate rules ... nothing spectacular
fe3333au: we having nominations for elections now ... gosh the turns are moving fast

Official Appology
sixpackholiday: would you feel it to be ok if you made an official note on that last deal ... it would ease some peoples minds i guess ... why you didn't let us know anything
fe3333au: I will relook at the chat logs ... I could have sworn i told someone ... However the deal was for currency
sixpackholiday: maybe you did...i don't know ... everyone was ga-ga
fe3333au: But I will appologize if it is needed
sixpackholiday: don't know if needed ... but it would feel right
fe3333au: ok I will ... not now ... but send some form of letter relating to that specific trade soon
sixpackholiday: cool
fe3333au: before you finish republic LOL
sixpackholiday: good thing, heh

Future talk now
fe3333au: So shall we speak of the future?
sixpackholiday: ok
fe3333au: I see after republic and we give you everything we have including HBR ... which Whomp didn't want

Who researches what
fe3333au: we need to decide who researches what ... Poly and Construction ... what do you want to research?
sixpackholiday: assuming no deal with overseas?

< No Trading without other's consent it essential >
fe3333au: We need that agreed to as well ... because we cannot have you trading Republic to Nuts ... Nuts are too strong as it is ... and they are our biggest threat

< Phone call >

Continued
sixpackholiday: back
fe3333au: so we agree to not swap anymore unless both KISS and MIA agree
sixpackholiday: i cannot give an absolute Yes ... this will have to be decided by team ... a very big undertaking
fe3333au: I understand I just want to have both teams discussing this and then having dialogue with each other
sixpackholiday: for both of us
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: it's a crucial part of a new agreement
fe3333au: It in itself is the ultimate handshake that will prove to all that we trust each other and are totally committed to our Alliance

Is he tryng to trap me ???
sixpackholiday: would trading to TNT be ok for you? ... rep that is
fe3333au: only if you agreed ... personally I would not want this
sixpackholiday: only if you agree that is ... i think we would be very displeased by you selling rep to TNT
fe3333au: I would too

TNT don't deserve our help
fe3333au: I think thay have played stupidly and do not want to award them for it ... but at the same time a weak TNT is better for you ... but a strong Nuts is bad for us
sixpackholiday: We will go there and whack both of 'em anyway
fe3333au: I'd like them to have wasted resources on each other LOL
sixpackholiday: peace on green continent let's us move the bulk of mil overseas

Next Item to discuss
fe3333au: anyway assuming that we agree to no trade unless both parties agree to it ... the next thing is you decide which of the remaining two techs to research and we will research the other ... Then we are both into Middle Ages
sixpackholiday: it's dicussed already ... no decision made ... different opinions ... maybe we vote
fe3333au: yes ... good idea


Great Library Threat
fe3333au: The only threat to our tech lead is the Great Library
sixpackholiday: yeah, GLib is a worry
fe3333au: so one of us must go for Education ... while the other researches other techs
sixpackholiday: i saw you proposed MIA to do that ... i think that will be ok

< Yes MIA going for Education is fine ... but >
fe3333au: we cannot swap until education has been discovered ... Problem is our free tech ... what if we get feudalism
sixpackholiday: yeah... ... hmm..
fe3333au: that means you will have to go for Educatiuon while we go for other techs
sixpackholiday: if you get Mono no probs
fe3333au: agreed
sixpackholiday: you're faster and Edu is in a hurry ... i think you're faster...
fe3333au: but if we get Feudalism then you will need feudalism to research anything else

What ?!!
sixpackholiday: how could we pay you for Feud or Eng?
fe3333au: and that means 2 techs are known and the great Libraty will give it to the other team
fe3333au: what you mean pay?
sixpackholiday: hmm...you're right. prob is we both know it then ... sloppy thinking ... i thought we could somehow pay for feud if you got it

So option is to let the Free Tech decide
fe3333au: so maybe MIA only go for Education if we get Mono for free?
sixpackholiday: if we cannot solve that issue otherwise...
fe3333au: The agreemant would be that we swap all techs we know to each other ... that way we are equal
sixpackholiday: when edu is in?
fe3333au: after Education has been discovered
sixpackholiday: yes.....hmm

Only Logical way ... hope it doesn't spin KISS out
fe3333au: I know that means we will probably be researching military tech ... would that make things uneasy amonst your team?
sixpackholiday: don't know....maybe...

< Interesting idea >
sixpackholiday: some sort of peace deal could go with it
fe3333au: I can't see any other way ... but am open for you to send us a proposal
sixpackholiday: also if were to do mil techs you would want a non aggression deal i presume

< Maybe give one tech away early if no threat seen ??? >
fe3333au: of course we could swap one tech when you start Educatiion if there is no evidence that the Great Library is being built

Non-Agression Pact
fe3333au: I would expect no less ... we would have to make such a deal
sixpackholiday: either we decide on how to handle different free tech scenarios in advance ... or we wait to see what mother rng says ... and have a nice sit down at the camp fire then ...
fe3333au: I'd prefer to know how we are entering the Middle Ages together

First things First
sixpackholiday: first thing to decide is Const. or Poly
fe3333au: yes poly or const

fe3333au: but before that ... we must agree to a no trading with others clause
sixpackholiday: yes
fe3333au: because we all know Nuts have it
sixpackholiday: would be good to have those 2 issues solved
fe3333au: and we don't want Nuts to be so much better than TNT that they wipe TNT out before we get to Battle Isle
sixpackholiday: Nuts have what?
fe3333au: it is scary for us ... because they are nearest to us
fe3333au: Poly
sixpackholiday: aha
fe3333au: or they will in 1 or 2 turns

Mutual protection Pact
sixpackholiday: and MPP's are far away....lol
fe3333au: MPP ??
sixpackholiday: Mutual P Pacts
fe3333au: yes ... although we could agree to this type of thing surely?
sixpackholiday: Dunno?
fe3333au: me neather ... but if you were being atacked ... and you asked for help ... we would help
sixpackholiday: Military alliance only available
fe3333au: so it has already happened
sixpackholiday: a grey zone in the rules i suppose ... we could ask admins
fe3333au: yes ... but no biggy ... If you asked for help we would help
sixpackholiday: goes both ways ... we will ask for "help" when times come to sail

< But we may not want to attack TNT >
fe3333au: but at the same time if you attack TNT ... it may be difficult for us to do anything because of distance ... but we will do what we can ... but we will discuss this when the time comes
sixpackholiday: Enemy is to be decided. I'd prefer the strongest first ... prolly Nuts

< Don't suggest stuff that other KISSers will argue against >
fe3333au: how many on your team agree to that?
sixpackholiday: An rop with you so we can ship from south ... most seem to think that is the way to go ... but pros and cons of course ... distance
fe3333au: oh that is good news to hear ... thanks for sharing LOL
sixpackholiday: you like Nuts to be crushed right?
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: maybe a rop with TNT could work ... but i think it would be more of a surprise if we landed at S-field
fe3333au: hmmm ... we must discuss this development later ... once our agreements are in place
sixpackholiday: yes certanly

Summary .. and Timeline
sixpackholiday: ok, so 1 Poly or Constr. 2. Trade stop or not
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: good I'll bring it in
fe3333au: must be agree to very soon
sixpackholiday: some 7 turns i think
fe3333au: cos we almost ready to start researching
sixpackholiday: give us deadline
fe3333au: I'll tell you now ... we don't mind researching the biggest one ... but only if we agreee to no trade

< As soon as possible >
fe3333au: 3ish turns ... is that ok? ... before Xmas LOL
sixpackholiday: think so...yes.lol

< Nice Sentiment >
sixpackholiday: The Greens will have a very happy new year

Closing Matters
sixpackholiday: I'll have to go soon too. The most urging matters are line out. after that we can have a discussion on how to handle the free tech issue and the road to Education, then we discuss how you can help us in invading Battle Island. I take it you might have worries about us reaching domination limit whan invading so that has to be thought over.

Daghie's Thought
sixpackholiday: An idea: If we enter MA first we get to choose the tech and could start feud or inv to raise the probability of mono for you, am i right? in that perspective the cheapest, Poly, would be our choise..
fe3333au: ok ... I'll await a proper letter yes?
sixpackholiday: well yes, i'll ask someone who can actually express these things accurately to write something up
fe3333au: and understand the game machine better than I
sixpackholiday: the illitterate negotiating with the stupid ... whadda sub-team

Mail to g-mail
fe3333au: so something will be sent to MIA g-mail box ... just in case I am awol
sixpackholiday: i'll see to it
fe3333au: excellent

Horray !!!
fe3333au: I feel good about this
sixpackholiday: me too
fe3333au: I hope your team will as well ... I know MIA will be happy
sixpackholiday: I'll do my best to keep them happy ... with most is no probs

Musing on membership
fe3333au: maybe reason we have so few active players is that all the war mongers got bored because there was no-one to attack LOL
sixpackholiday: heh, just growing and building
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: my kind of fun
fe3333au: mine too ... Im hope it is a space age race
sixpackholiday: we'll let the dogs loose overseas
fe3333au: yes

Statistic from RIK
fe3333au: Rik was saying MIA have a lot more posts than some of the other teams
sixpackholiday: cool
fe3333au: so I guess you and us are having more fun ... among our teams
sixpackholiday: i'm certain

Goodbyes
sixpackholiday: anyway, talk to ya later.......
fe3333au: cya
sixpackholiday: bye matey

OK here is a summary

Pending ... Agreements
1. No trading with Battle Islanders without mutual consent.
2. One research Poly the other Construction ... probably us the more expensive one.
3. Agree one to race for Education, while other research Gunpowder then swap when Great Library has been neutralised ... this is probably dependant on our free technology.

Interesting
> Dags suggests that Nuts may be a target cos they are the stronger of the Battle Islanders ... we must await developments.

 

[peter grimes]

The dizzying heights ---- The terrible lows ---- ahh, the Green Alliance. Quite a ride.

Some quick thoughts:

Let's do an apology, and put our tail between our legs, even though we suspect we were not wrong in the trade with TNT. We should wade back throught the chat logs and try and see exactly what went wrong - not for the sake fo assigning blame, but so that we Learn from the mistake.

< Maybe give one tech away early if no threat seen ??? >
fe3333au: of course we could swap one tech when you start Educatiion if there is no evidence that the Great Library is being built

No way. DNUT will be prebiulding a palace, to keep the Wonder production hidden. They will switch to the Great Library on the turn the GL will complete, so we won't have any warning at all. There really can't be any tech trading until Education (at least, if we want to keep MA techs from DNUT)

fe3333au: yes ... but no biggy ... If you asked for help we would help
sixpackholiday: goes both ways ... we will ask for "help" when times come to sail

I wonder what that means?...

[quot]fe3333au: how many on your team agree to that?
sixpackholiday: An rop with you so we can ship from south ... most seem to think that is the way to go ... but pros and cons of course ... distance[/quote]

A ROP will only make sense once there is a road through the jungle. I don't know if we really want to invest the worker turns in something that KISS could use to funnel GS into our core, even if it is just to put them on boats.
Until a road is built, the GS only has two movement. Movement by sea is 50% faster. They should simply ship their GS south. But that will take forever. I just don't see it happening.

sixpackholiday: An idea: If we enter MA first we get to choose the tech and could start feud or inv to raise the probability of mono for you, am i right? in that perspective the cheapest, Poly, would be our choise..

They can't enter the Middle Ages without both Poly and Const. If we do Construction, they'll need to receive it from us before they can enter the new age. I'm not certain of game mechanics, but it just might work:

Turn X: We complete Construction, KISS completes Poly

Turn X+1: We gift Construction (with accept) to KISS. Kiss gets save, accepts Construction. Gift w/ accept Poly to MIA; set research to Feudalism.

Turn X+2: We get the save, with POLY, and accept; set research to Engineering

Turn X+3: We enter New Age, free tech should be Monotheism.

I'm sure I've got some things wrong here, but I think that's the gist of it. It's possible to work.

 

[Chamnix]

So the tension was caused by KISS thinking we were making those deals, and they couldn&#8217;t do anything, whereas we thought we had given them a chance to say no. I guess in the future we have to be careful to phrase things as &#8220;proposed&#8221; deals instead of done deals. I really thought we had done that, but they obviously didn&#8217;t &#8211; lesson learned.

I think it is great that we are back on good terms, but don&#8217;t give away the house just yet. It looks like you are volunteering us to research Construction (the more expensive tech), and saying that if they have to do Education, then we give them everything we have once they get there which essentially is the same as giving them our free Middle Ages tech (just a little later).

For the specifics:

1. No trading unless approved &#8211; no problem. We almost had that anyway (no trading beyond monopoly price unless approved), but obviously KISS didn&#8217;t feel we were always asking approval, so if this makes them feel more comfortable, then let&#8217;s do it.

2. Research Construction and Polytheism &#8211; obviously we would prefer to do Polytheism, but this should not be a big deal. We can do Construction if necessary.

3. Agree that if we get Monotheism, then we research to Education. If we get Feudalism or Engineering then they research to Education. I&#8217;m not sure what the trade will be once Education is reached because we should have one more tech than them in either case, and I don&#8217;t know if we really want to give it up, but that will be a sticking point no doubt.

EDIT - slow cross-post with peter grimes. I don't think the fact that KISS has started researching something will have any effect at all on our free tech. The price will be unaffected until they complete it, and I'm not sure we get the cheapest tech anyway - I think it is just random.

 

[fe3333au]

How is this for a start.

Dear friends in KISS

It is with true and weighted heart that I kneel at your feet and offer apologies to the perceived lack of consultation when it came to our last trade with TNT.

I honestly thought that I had discussed it with some idiot prior to the deal being made. It was always with a big picture view that I entertained knowledge swapping and have shown that the deals were beneficial to the Green Alliance and neutral at best for the Battle Islanders.

I take full responsibility for all actions, my team mates were in no way accountable. Perhaps we can put my crime down to over zealousness to collect as many technologies for the Alliance as possible for little cost. We can also add to this the swiftness of the game turns being sent.

I trust this will suffice and understand if I must now sharpen my own pencils

Yours in embarrassed submission

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

 

[Chamnix]

Looks good...

Also, some thoughts on who should research Construction. I am trying to compile a list of which techs each side has actually researched so far. I am ignoring techs obtained through Battle Isle trades because KISS can justifiably claim that they didn't have as many opportunities. I am also ignoring techs popped from huts, starting techs, and our original tech exchange because that was judged even on its own merits and was before the Green Alliance really came into effect.

MIA - Mysticism (4), Masonry (4), The Wheel (4), Literature (10), Map Making (12). Total - 34

KISS - Writing (8), Republic (28). Total - 36.

They also spent around 150g that both MIA and KISS benefited from although not quite equally (KISS has the ability to sign RoPs and the ability to investigate cities). MIA spent 12g in tech trades.

I guess the conclusion is that it is our turn to research Construction and not make an issue of it.

 

[classical_hero]

Why should we apologise when we did nothing wrong?

 

[General_W]

I like the apology Fe!

Personally - I don't regret anything we did. But if we can make KISS feel better and help preserve the alliance with a little groveling&#8230; then why not?!? The words don't cost us anything, except a little of Fe's pride.

So thanks for taking one for the team Fe!

 

[peter grimes]

Looking good.

@Classical_Hero: I'm not convinced that we are without blame. That is the essence of communicating: If I'm saying something to you, and you remember it differently than I do, then it is I who was communicating ineffectively. So, just because we thought we had the green light to do the trade may not mean that they thought they were giving us the green light. In essence, a failure to communicate effectively.

So if we have to swallow a little pride for the sake of this profitable alliance, so be it. I will gladly be the first to bow.

As for why I had been an advocate for researching Construction: We can start immediately, it's the more expensive of the two, and finishing POLY first doesn't do us any good without Construction: we need both to enter the next age.

@Chamnix - if KISS's research doesn't affect our free tech, then I guess there's just now way to determine who will do EDU. Oh well.

 

[fe3333au]

If in fact it is the case that our free technology is random ... then KISS should spend one turn maxed on gold production while we find out what tech our accumulated karma points have gifted.

They will like the idea of that methinks

I actually hope we get Education ... as it will mean Mono is the free tech and then we only have Theology and Education to research ... minimising the danger period for Great Library

 

[fe3333au]

The whole accusation of TNT trading is niggling me

22nd November (Daghie) ...
>Turn 61 Embassies established
>33 Turns until Republic
>mention getting HBR from Nuts for Maths ... also mentioned I told Whomp
>mentioned geeting Maths from TNT

23rd November (Whomp) ...
>Gifted Masonry to KISS

23rd November (Tubby) ...
>important to keep alliance hidden
>can Republic be speeded up? ... 33 to 20

26th November (Whomp) ...
>retold deal with TNT for WC, CB and Wheel +12gp for Maths
>Daghie didn't pass it on.
>Did at KISS about research rate increasing

29th November (Daghie)
>wants us to stop trading.
>mentioned out double trade ... traded Maths on for other knowledge.

29th November (Whomp)
>discussed TNT proposed deal give Maths for Writing
>after Republic swap ... Poly and Construction left

30th November (Daghie)
>relook at the deal ... MM, Lit, Maths and possibly HBR
>have a completion turn clause

1st December
>PMed to KISS the deal where we indicate possibility of trading stuff for Currency from TNT

1st December (Whomp)
>What you think about Draft
>Currency is discussed as in who researches it ... MIA will supply
>KISS to trade Poly for Republic idea

1st December ... MIA
>Not sure when to raise potential deals with KISS

2nd December (Skippy)
>TNT is target for KISS

3rd December (Whomp)
>had chance to look at MIA draft?

6th December
>send PM Deal of the Century
>Has the TNT deal for Currency
>potential Nuts Literature deal for Poly

7th December (Tubby)
>questions the deal
>why TNT getting 3 techs for Currency
>Traits Traits SGL Traits
>KISS planning to trade Republic to others

7th December (Daghie)
>Don't like TNT deal
>KISS planning to trade Republic to others

10th December (Whomp)
>Deal done ... why not happy?
>Nuts Poly deal not happened cos Lit popped
>TNT trade happened at turn 73
>You had proposal ... no reply

11th December
>PM from KISS want to get Maths, Lit, MM and Currency now !!!

12th December
>gift Maths
>rest must wait for Republic

13th December (Whomp, while chatting to Nobody)
>what to trade with KISS
>Green Alliance should be kept secret
>fake Republic auction

Technically we gave notice ... morally we did know the deal was pending way prior

 

[peter grimes]

I'm not sure I follow all of the entries above.... but I think it went like this:

6th December
>send PM Deal of the Century
>Has the TNT deal for Currency
>potential Nuts Literature deal for Poly

7th December (Tubby)
>questions the deal
>why TNT getting 3 techs for Currency

7th December (Daghie)
>Don't like TNT deal

10th December (Whomp)
>Deal done ... why not happy?
>Nuts Poly deal not happened cos Lit popped
>TNT trade happened at turn 73
>You had proposal ... no reply


Now, as I read it, a couple different people on KISS's side expressed reservations about our proposed Currency deal with TNT. Yet we went ahead and did it anyway. Granted, no one issued an outright prohibition to the trade, but the sentiment was there. Our bad.