Next step building adjustments

[mystikx21]

I'm not sure if an effectively multiplayer only building then is worth retaining? Except for MP. But we can leave it as is for now and make a modular move to have it merged out to the military base and see how that goes.

I will have to think on the resource associations that are left out.

One way to reduce gold somewhat is to reduce luxuries innate +2 gold to +1 and make them stronger through infrastructure investments and tech on the improvement. This would compensate somewhat for adding any gold to villages or just moving villages somewhat earlier in the tech tree. If that's not a desirable change, then many of these are unnecessary flavor changes to strengthen weaker buildings. I would however not recommend at this point keeping CEP's +1 to all luxuries from the caravansary. That's too strong an effect, spread it out to different buildings and remove some of the duplication bonuses.

By default there are the following interactions.

Spoiler :

Granary - Wheat, Deer, Banana - good as is.

Stable - Horse, Cattle, Sheep. (Ducal also adds gold) - good as is.

Mint - Gold, Silver (+2) - make it +1 and apply to gems/copper as well, or leave it plus 2 on gold/gems/silver?

Lighthouse - Coast tile, fish, +1 production on all sea resources - good as is.

Monastery - wine/incense - fine, but a fairly limited building. Should have a more universal effect

Stone Works - Stone/Marble - good as is

Floating Garden - Lakes - lakes should get another bonus from a universal building as they're pretty weak tiles other than the freshwater bonuses for surrounding tiles.

Forge - Iron - should consider moving this to a different building if the forge is removed

University - Jungle (+2) - should consider splitting this up to the laboratory +1 each.

Seaport - Sea resources +1p/1g - good as is for that part.

Hydro - Rivers

That leaves these features or tiles unaffected

Spoiler :

Strategics
Aluminum (factory)
Coal (factory)
Uranium (factory)
Oil - (factory, stock exchange?)

I don't think having all of the late game resources less affected by the game economy is a good balance of tiles vs horses and iron. All of them could work with factories and/or stock exchanges instead of adding any strength to those buildings manually.

Luxuries
Citrus (food + gold, should be fine, could be market/garden if the initial bonus is split up?)
Copper (mint)
Cotton (amphitheatre?)
Dyes (Amphitheatre)
Furs (Caravansary?)
Gems (+3g, all others +2g or +1f/1g base) (reduce to +2 and use +1-2 from Mint)
Incense (sort of) (Temple)
Ivory (Circus "adds" happiness already, caravansary?)
Salt (probably unnecessary if it keeps food and gold to start, but could start with just food and get a bonus from the market?)
Silk (amphitheater or opera house)
Spices (market/garden?)
Sugar (market)
Truffles (honestly not sure why this is used as a luxury instead of something else unless they just had the pigs art made and wanted to use it for something. Garden maybe?)
Wine (sort of) (Temple)
(for "market", substitute any of the gold line of buildings as the market is pretty good already)

Features/terrains
Natural Wonders - (Hotel/Airport, could also add tourism directly to these instead of multiplying culture so that all NW would benefit?)
Mountains (Observatory, Hotel/Broadcast Tower/Garden/tech?)
Tundra/Ice - unrealistic, probably unnecessary
Desert - Petra/flood plains
Plains - unneeded
Grassland - unneeded
Atoll/Isles - (Seaport) tile is pretty solid already but this would be fine if "general" coast tiles aren't improved significantly)
Coast is still a little weak. - Wind Plant, seaport?
Lake - (Aqueduct or Garden)
Oasis - (Bazaar, Garden? Caravansary?)

 

[Lord Tirian]

Regarding the bomb shelter: it could always add a bonus like +25% city defence against aircraft. After all, the military base comes in the modern era, leaving two eras of aircraft improvements without any way to strengthen cities in that time (though that's by design, of course, to push interceptors and AA).

As said above, I wouldn't mind dropping the yield on all luxuries that get a resource interaction - I think we shouldn't go overboard, though. Not *everything* needs to have a buffing building, it's good to have some distribution. After all, different buildings already mean they come on at different points in the tech tree, we should use this to buff weaker/boring buildings.

Going through your list, my thoughts at the moment are:

Spoiler :

Strategic
I agree, it's nice to give them buffs as well, but piling them on the factory is... boring, what about this:

• Aluminium: Recycling centre! I'm only half-kidding, require aluminium tiles to build it, drop the provided aluminium to 1, but let it buff aluminium tiles. This way, it means you still need to get aluminium somehow, but get rewarded for actually having it in your territory. Perhaps re-name it to "aluminium smelter" (still don't mind if we ditch the recycling centre completely, just looking for a building that's not the factory).
• Coal: Factory is fine.
• Uranium: Perhaps +1 from a research lab? Represents research reactors.
• Oil: Stock exchange (+1 ) fits.

Luxury

• Citrus: I like garden, it alludes to orangeries. Could be either , or then.
• Copper: Mint fits.
• Cotton: I don't think any building really fits. Perhaps just leave that alone. I don't see cotton trade as "cultural" thing, make it caravansary if we have to have something.
• Dyes: Amphitheatre fits.
• Furs: Caravansary fits.
• Gems: Tempted to think this one should just be left alone, Mint is decent enough with copper/gold/silver
• Incense: Let's keep the monastery special.
• Ivory: I think it's fine already.
• Salt: Fine as is.
• Silk: Opera house needs some love, I wouldn't mind it there.
• Spices: Market fits better, I think.
• Sugar: Market fits.
• Truffles: I like that here, truffles are known for being expensive and hard to cultivate. Caravansary?
• Wine: As with incense. Since garden is under-used, perhaps the garden for extra GP points? Doesn't step on the toes of the monastery and kind of goes with "rich people like expensive wine"...

Features/Terrains

• Natural wonders: I wouldn't mind the tourism yield.
• Mountains: Observatory already gives it value and there are a few wonders that require mountains. Together with their strategic factor, I'd say they're fine.
• Tundra/Ice: Since the trade post is getting upgraded, tundra gets an implicit upgrade.
• Desert: As w/ Tundra (plus, flood plains are great enough).
• Plains & Grassland: Fine.
• Atoll/Isles: Fine if we buff coast.
• Coast: Still like the wind plant.
• Lake & Oasis: Aqueduct fits thematically.

 

[mystikx21]

Looks good there. I like most of those ideas. I'd guess that makes the recycling center acceptable sort of. I'd be fine with the uranium being science, there are few of those around.

Cotton trade was a big deal for a while. Not quite as big as tea or spices. But big enough there were wars. I'd agree though the +1 culture is thematically strange. If we aren't adding to the yield this way for a tile, then we should leave the base untouched (so that would be salt, ivory, cotton and gems).

I am amused by the wine GP option. I'm not sure how that would work exactly, say 5-10% per wine? But I am amused at least.

The observatory is probably being changed to provide science (~2) to mountain tiles and smaller % bonus to the city itself and have a spec slot but be more widely available instead of requiring an adjacent mountain (nearby mountain instead).

I think mountains are fine as is but it could kind of make the observatory a potentially wasted niche effect unless there's a late game tech effect that grants some other yield (1-2 production) or a late game building that does something interesting to make taking the tile value a little more worthwhile (instead of just working a specialist), like +1 tourism or +1-2 gold. It would not have to be much and it should require investment if it is to be there at all. +2 science though is not bad as a core already. It's just feels very limited versus running scientists.

 

[Lukeroge]

I'm a fan of making the bomb shelter also providing a bonus against aircraft attacks. I'd really love to provide more feedback but I don't know enough about the details of the base game to give too much, is there any way we can get a table with the old and new behaviour of various tiles/buildings once the basic ideas have been finished?

 

[mystikx21]

There's likely going to be a wiki page for that eventually if these are compiled into a major mod pack.

I will put up a summary post in these subtopics once we have most of the finer points discussed though so we can see what we are proposing to change, and how modular we can make those changes and so I can keep track of what edits to make and what to remove, etc.

The bomb shelter can probably have an AA modifier, but I think the base xml modifier that was used was changed (that one is now the extra capacity the airport provides I thought) so I'd have to investigate how we can add that to cities now.

 

[Lukeroge]

There's likely going to be a wiki page for that eventually if these are compiled into a major mod pack.

I will put up a summary post in these subtopics once we have most of the finer points discussed though so we can see what we are proposing to change, and how modular we can make those changes and so I can keep track of what edits to make and what to remove, etc.

The bomb shelter can probably have an AA modifier, but I think the base xml modifier that was used was changed (that one is now the extra capacity the airport provides I thought).

Totally off-topic, but I'd be happy to host a nice custom mediawiki wiki if the project wants one at any point, I've got a bunch of spare server space* to use. A bit nicer to use then wikia, and less annoying adverts!

(*good high end VPS, not some $5 webhost)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Just a thought-couldn't the recycling center increase the plot values of tiles containing aluminium, iron & copper?

Just putting it out there.

Aussie.

 

[mystikx21]

Iron needs a bonus sooner (it becomes useless sooner, so it should get bonuses sooner). Copper currently has one from the mint in the design. I'd rather it be earlier too.

I'd be fine with an aluminum tie-in but that's a pretty narrow basis for the building (narrower than the forge). I guess I could live with it just being that and +1 alum resource. That's just not a building I'd have much use for.

 

[Stalker0]

Iron needs a bonus sooner

Iron doesn't "need" anything, especially if it becomes rarer.

If we consider the forge to be currently pretty useless, than in most games iron isn't getting anything extra right now at all.

 

[Funak]

How about changing the requirement for the forge (If people still wanted it) from having iron in range to actually costing iron to build like factory/hydroplant/nuclearplant?
You could have those strategic resource bonuses on it if you want or just a big unitproduction bonus.

Other than that I'd love to see you integrating the More Luxuries mod luxuries into those building-plans aswell, especially if you are planning to keep that as a recommended mod.

 

[Tomice]

38)
Courthouse: 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population (lower base cost, but higher in later/larger cities). No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost. (per population effect disabled)

Completely agree, one of my great pet peeves is that with current courthouses a conquered city will cost me more for ALL TIME. I want an over and done with it version of the courthouse.

Strongly agree! The change was even my idea origanally IIRC
Didn't have time yet to think through all of the other topics, but this one is important.

 

[Gazebo]

How about changing the requirement for the forge (If people still wanted it) from having iron in range to actually costing iron to build like factory/hydroplant/nuclearplant?
You could have those strategic resource bonuses on it if you want or just a big unitproduction bonus.

Other than that I'd love to see you integrating the More Luxuries mod luxuries into those building-plans aswell, especially if you are planning to keep that as a recommended mod.

I think an easy solution would be to have an enable/disable option that brings in a few of his luxuries as additional bonuses, where appropriate, if you are using his mod.
G

 

[Funak]

I don't really have any idea how modding works, but would but would for example adding a goldbonus from perfume to the market break the game for people not using the additional luxuries mod?

 

[mystikx21]

Funak, we kicked around the idea of having an iron requirement building, but in order for the forge to be useful to take away from building more swordsmen, it would have to have a ridiculous bonus. (and the hydro plant alum requirement will most likely be removed).

I believe you can add a check if there's an active mod (or DLC) before activating a change yes.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Still messing around with the importing of the CEP code for the buildings.

Have we come to an agreement as to whether CEP's custom wonders are added in?
Also what about the adjustments made to the existing wonders are we going with those also?

Additionally, I'm endeavouring to streamline the structure of these files. My idea is to have just one 'initialisation' file for the whole 'Balance' part of the mod, (basically anything that was once part of CEP) that handles not only buildings, but any changes that need to be loaded into the database early and then have one xml/sql, or one of each, to handle each type of item. In this case buildings.

Any better way you want it?

CEP structured buildings into what they primarily do. ie. produce , , etc. and had a different file for each yield. Too unwieldy. For now there is just an initialisation file and a Buildings.xml. there may have been as many as five files to handle buildings that produce for example!

For those that haven't actually looked at the GitHub repo, maybe thinking you can't as yet help out or perhaps it looks too technical, can I suggest you do so anyway. The files that are there to edit can be viewed just like any file on your computer and you may see something that needs a change that we miss.
I would much prefer to see us remove as much dross as possible before we make the changes in the actual released mod.

Help is always just a click away if anyone wants to join in.

 

[Stalker0]

Have we come to an agreement as to whether CEP's custom wonders are added in?
Also what about the adjustments made to the existing wonders are we going with those also?

We haven't had much discussion about wonders, we've talked about the base buildings a fair amount.

 

[Funak]

We haven't had much discussion about wonders, we've talked about the base buildings a fair amount.

Wonder discussion could probably use it's own thread, right?

 

[mystikx21]

I wanted to open up a thread for wonders this weekend yes. Leaders and policies also. But these other threads have opened up to get in the way.

 

[lockstep]

My thoughts from the CEP list:

[...]

33) Culture buildings do not tier and any can be built as soon as the tech is available.

Agreed.

Removing prerequisites between culture buildings with different Great Work slots seem like a good idea. However, I'd suggest to make all post-Monument buildings require a Monument. If nothing else, this should help the AI. ;-)

 

[Stalker0]

Alright time to ressurect and keep this moving. I am going to try and summarize the latest proposals from all of the instructions. Please note, there are a lot of pieces to this, I almost assuredly missed something (probably a lot of somethings). I am going to run down through all the buildings, and note what has changed.

Note: I am not going to note any direct cost changes yet, that will take longer to piece together Also note...this is far from complete...this is not meant to imply this is a finished product, there are still a lot to do there I think.'

Note: No name changes in this discussion. We will be looking at names in an optional piece of the mod in another thread.

Buildings V1.0

Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - No change
Garden - +1 food to lakes, truffles. No terrain prereq.
Hospital - -1 maintenance.
Medical Lab - No change.

Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense and wine, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq

Amphitheater - +1 culture to Silk, Cotton, Furs, Dye
Opera House - +3 culture, Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq

Barracks - No change
Armory - No change
Military Academy - No change

Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty (maybe misremembering this one)
Circus - +1 maintenance.

Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil.
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.

Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - +2 prod, 25% bonus to naval production. No sea tile bonus. Harbor no longer a prereq.

Market - No change
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold, +1 gold to luxury resources

Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , +1 maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), +1 maintenance.
Observatory - Some removal of mountain prereq and some other adjustment (needs to be firmed up).

Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change

Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty
Police Station - -1 discontent

Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.