Next step building adjustments

[Stalker0]

Some general debates that were still going on last time:

Watermill - Should be:
+2 food, +1 prod
+1 food, +2 prod
+1 food, +3 prod

Recycling Center - Should it stay in the game?

Should the forge stay in the game, also some debate on rolling it into the barracks line of buildings.

Should the higher barracks buildings (MA for example) get some adjustment?

Terrain balancing, are all of the terrain types covered in a way that makes them balanced?

 

[Funak]

I would suggest switching the bonus to workshops and windmills and making windmills buildable on all terrain. (10% production when building buildings on workshops and 10% production on windmills)

I would also suggest moving them (Or atleast the windmill) earlier in the tree. Atleast a bit.

Also, I was a fan of the +1 for lakes on aqueducts.

I second this

 

[Lord Tirian]

Recycling Center - Should it stay in the game?

I vaguely remember that mystikx21 was happy-ish with my insistence of keeping the Recycling Centre if we use it as one of the modern resource buildings (+1 for aluminium via Recycling Centre, +1 for oil via Stock Exchange, +1 for uranium via Research Lab), since they sorely lack any building-based boosts.

Also, I was a fan of the +1 for lakes on aqueducts.

 

[mystikx21]

I was happy-ish with that yes. Not pleased, but it was okay. Coal was +1 from factories also.
I think most of the other +1 resource bonuses were settled already (including the lake bonus) and I've included most of them in the edits I did on github a couple weeks ago. Recycling center and forge I held off on as it wasn't clear yet what we were doing with them.

Watermill is fine as 2f/1p as long as the upkeep is reduced to 1.

The forge debate was unsettled. A way to make the military academy a little better was to give it a unit production bonus (and obviously do as CEP did and scale the XP bonuses upward 10,15,30). Possibly the cost would be adjusted from there.

 

[mystikx21]

That summary is missing a ton of stuff Stalker.

Barracks buildings scale XP
Garden bonus to citrus and wine (not truffles and lakes), possibly oasis
Aqueduct - lakes, possibly oasis
Mint - no bonus to Gems? (tile left as is), possibly move a merchant slot here from the stock exchange
Stock Exchange +1g to oil.
Library - upkeep was left the same last I saw. I've seen no proposal to raise it. Statistically it doesn't need to be raised even with a scientist slot moved there. Possibly the slot was to be moved to the observatory instead. This was unsettled as yet.
Circus - either +1 upkeep or a slight increase in building cost
Amphitheater - no bonus to cotton or furs or silk, dyes is fine.
Opera House +2-3 with a bonus to silk
Courthouse - I don't know if we have the cost per citizen available. The other stuff is easy enough.
Constable/Police - There was a suggestion a while back to give these a small bonus to yields when the city grows (or enters WLtKD? or both)
Hydro Plant could be -1 upkeep and significant cost reduction. (Cost reductions are also a factor here, even if you don't want them to be).
Recycling center- bonus to aluminum
Factory - bonus to coal
Caravansary - no bonus to all luxuries, more narrow (truffles, cotton, furs)
Market - bonus to a couple luxuries (spice, sugar)
Observatory change was not to remove the mountain requirement but make it within 1-2 tiles of city and grant +2 science on mountains last I saw.
I wouldn't mind giving the med lab +1 population
Forge was only +1 to iron still (and possibly removed, with that merged on the barracks).
Seaport could boost atolls (gold/production?). The sea tile bonus is fine really as it is though.

Also - change Hotels to grant tourism to Natural Wonders instead of boosting it from culture.
Possibly add Wind Plant as a non-fresh water coastal building boosting coasts or isles/work boats.

 

[Funak]

Any opinions on the windmill/workshop thing?

 

[Stalker0]

That summary is missing a ton of stuff Stalker:

I'll comment below. Some of this was missed...some of this was not agreed upon.

Barracks buildings scale XP
--Still in debate.

Garden bonus to citrus and wine (not truffles and lakes), possibly oasis
--Missed this, I will update.

Aqueduct - lakes, possibly oasis
--It seems we were kind of going back and forth between aqueducts and gardens for specific bonus, I will go with this one for now.

Mint - no bonus to Gems? (tile left as is), possibly move a merchant slot here from the stock exchange
--Missed the gems, I'll add it in.

Stock Exchange +1g to oil.
--Ddidn't see this in the original debates, don't really see a need for it myself.

Library - upkeep was left the same last I saw. I've seen no proposal to raise it. Statistically it doesn't need to be raised even with a scientist slot moved there. Possibly the slot was to be moved to the observatory instead. This was unsettled as yet.
--I will adjust the upkeep.

Circus - either +1 upkeep or a slight increase in building cost
--Upkeep is already included.

Amphitheater - no bonus to cotton or furs or silk, dyes is fine.
-- I will make the change, still seems pretty weak to me.

Opera House +2-3 with a bonus to silk
--I'll make the change.
Courthouse - I don't know if we have the cost per citizen available. The other stuff is easy enough.
Constable/Police - There was a suggestion a while back to give these a small bonus to yields when the city grows (or enters WLtKD? or both)
--I can say that right the constable is a VERY strong building, -2 unhappy is gold right now. Police Station maybe I could see it.

Hydro Plant could be -1 upkeep and significant cost reduction. (Cost reductions are also a factor here, even if you don't want them to be).
--I will be adding in those cost reductions to the proposal I just haven't gotten there yet. That said...I will warn you ahead of time that I will be fighting any significant adjustments

Recycling center- bonus to aluminum
--Sure

Factory - bonus to coal
--Don't see any need, factories are good.

Caravansary - no bonus to all luxuries, more narrow (truffles, cotton, furs)
--Missed this one, adding it in.

Market - bonus to a couple luxuries (spice, sugar)
--adding it in.

Observatory change was not to remove the mountain requirement but make it within 1-2 tiles of city and grant +2 science on mountains last I saw.
--I'll leave it empty for now, needs a good debate.

I wouldn't mind giving the med lab +1 population
--we can debate more.
Forge was only +1 to iron still (and possibly removed, with that merged on the barracks).
--the removal part definately needs more debate.

Seaport could boost atolls (gold/production?). The sea tile bonus is fine really as it is though.
--I went based on on the last one I saw you and I agreed to.

Also - change Hotels to grant tourism to Natural Wonders instead of boosting it from culture.
--Ah hotels and airports...I knew I missed something! Also...hotels boosting natural wonders is fine...that without the culture would make them much weaker.

Possibly add Wind Plant as a non-fresh water coastal building boosting coasts or isles/work boats.
--Why? Coastal cities are great right now.

 

[Stalker0]

Any opinions on the windmill/workshop thing?

That to me is not a change taken lightly.

The workshop is a pretty key building mid game. Removing that bonus reduces military production almost across the board, and also reduces wonder and national wonder production (as they aren't buildings).

I could see the need to boost the windmill...but I think weakening the workshop creates more gameplay changes than are necessary.

 

[mystikx21]

The need for bonuses to coal and oil was pointed out by Tirian earlier. They can be moved to other buildings, but the stock exchange seems appropriate for oil and factory is fine for coal if nothing else is. If aluminum gets a bonus, then these two need one (plus uranium, which I missed).

Coastal cities are basically fine. I'd like see a bonus for atolls at least.

I think the XP scale isn't controversial at all. I don't see what there is to discuss there.

I agree with Stalker, we don't need to switch the windmill/workshop. The hill limitation on the windmill is a little annoying at times, but that's about it. The only change for the windmill would be to reduce its cost (which I think we can begin discussing cost adjustments here soon as most of the feature changes are in place).

 

[Lord Tirian]

Possibly add Wind Plant as a non-fresh water coastal building boosting coasts or isles/work boats.
--Why? Coastal cities are great right now.

I think one argument for it was that this was a "non-river" hydro plant (and mutually exclusive with the hydro plant).

 

[Stalker0]

Buildings V1.1
I bolded the changes from 1.0

Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - +1 food to Lakes, Oasis
Garden - +1 food to Citrus, Wine. No terrain prereq.
Hospital - -1 maintenance.
Medical Lab - No change.

Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense and wine, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq

Amphitheater - +1 culture to Dye (no silk, cotton, or furs)
Opera House - +3 culture, +1 culture with Silk. Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq

Barracks - No change
Armory - No change
Military Academy - No change

Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty (maybe misremembering this one)
Circus - +1 maintenance.

Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil.
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.

Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - +2 prod, 25% bonus to naval production. No sea tile bonus. Harbor no longer a prereq.

Market -+1 gold spices and sugar
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold, +1 gold to truffles, cotton, fur

Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , no increase in maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), +1 maintenance.
Observatory - Some removal of mountain prereq and some other adjustment (needs to be firmed up).

Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change

Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty
Police Station - -1 discontent

Hotel - No change
Airport - No change

Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.

 

[mystikx21]

That also isn't the change we agreed to on the seaport. FYI. They kept the sea tile bonus on our last agreement. The reason it was "removed" in CEP was CEP gave seaports +1 gold on all coast tiles instead. The main change was a +2 production and 25% to sea units, and then the harbor pre-req change.

Hotel change that was discussed was to give flat tourism yield to Natural Wonders instead of multiplying it from culture on Natural Wonders (which gave preference to cultural Natural Wonders).

I don't think any change has been yet proposed to the airport as yet.

 

[Funak]

Not really fair that some luxuary improvements comes a lot later than the others.

Also why remove the mountain requirement from observatory? Make it "within 2 tiles" like everything else and lower the effect to max 20% probably less.

Also not sure why Wine gets a buff both to food and to faith.

 

[Stalker0]

The need for bonuses to coal and oil was pointed out by Tirian earlier. They can be moved to other buildings, but the stock exchange seems appropriate for oil and factory is fine for coal if nothing else is. If aluminum gets a bonus, then these two need one (plus uranium, which I missed).

--I still argue the need to do anything with strategic resources. Oil provides a lot of hammers...and I want oil! Especially if we double the strategic cost of everything, these will be very useful.

Coastal cities are basically fine. I'd like see a bonus for atolls at least.

--Atolls are already great tiles. I have never built a coastal city and said "oh darn an atoll!".

I think the XP scale isn't controversial at all. I don't see what there is to discuss there.

--Then I will make it controversial. I am in the camp that says the barracks line is fine as is. I use every single one of those buildings. In every city...no. In several cities, yes.


Also, it looks like Sugar gets a double bonus now (food from gardens, gold from markets). Too good?

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I want to note. Right now are main means of balancing buildings is "resource inflation".

Effectively we are just adding in more resources to the game, that has other consequences.

Now, I don't mind doing that as much for resource balancing. For example if Resource X gives me 3 things, and Resource Y gives me 2...than making resource Y give 3 things just levels the playing field.

But just adding in bonus (like to strategic resources) is just inflating the numbers.

 

[mystikx21]

You want the oil yes. You may not want the tile to work it. It doesn't provide "a lot" of hammers when it's on a random desert or tundra tile (it is great at sea). In many cases, I'd rather have an engineer or a mine. Wells aren't a very good improvement. The change there could be just to make the well better then but I don't mind this approach instead as a little flavor for buildings.

I'm skeptical that doubling the cost of resources will be handled well by the AI and that some other approach won't be needed.

Sugar doesn't get a bonus from gardens.

Resource inflation is way toned down from CEP. Keep in mind there that every luxury got +1 from caravansary plus bonuses from other buildings. I think we were agreed to reduce base gold from most luxuries and have them improved this way (salt was also a key topic).

 

[Stalker0]

Also why remove the mountain requirement from observatory?

Its more of a start bias thing.

Right now, the 50% bonus from observatory is crazy huge. Even a 30% bonus would be very strong. The civs that gets access to mountains get a big science advantage.

Right now, I like the proposal that has observatories provide a base science bonus...plus some extra with mountains. Seems like a good compromise.

That said....this is science inflation. I can say that in most of my games, I never build an observatory. So if I can do that in all of my cities, even if its a small amount...that is more science overall than in vanilla.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd like to see more opinions on XP scales for the military buildings. If you are agreed that the military academy may need a boost, that's the easiest way to achieve that. If you don't think so, then I'm in the camp that says it does. By the time I can build it, it's very easy to have numerous units with over 60XP and certainly over 45XP to the point it would be nearly pointless to build it (basically so I can have experienced air units would be it).

 

[Stalker0]

You may not want the tile to work it. It doesn't provide "a lot" of hammers when it's on a random desert or tundra tile (it is great at sea). In many cases, I'd rather have an engineer or a mine.

Well....almost nothing is good on a random desert or tundra tile...those terrain types are meant to be less useful.

Let me ask this question, does the map making protocols factor in strategic resources when setting up other resources? In other words, if my area gets a lot of oil...I get less other things?

If the answer is yes...than I agree we should balance strategic yields with other resources...again to level the playing field. If the answer is no...than the point of strategics isn't their yields its the resource itself.

 

[mystikx21]

I don't believe the intention was to make the observatory not require any mountain, but be a little more flexible (CEP did that), and reduce the % science (maybe 10-15% instead of 50%), with some base science and some science on mountains. At least that was my interpretation of the proposed change. If it was just supposed to add a bonus to mountains instead, I'm not sure I would support that. As you said, that would be science inflation. It will be a more common building "my" way, but not a universally available one.