NFL Draft--How did your team do?

[onejayhawk]

If they play out the way they have the last couple years we can still argue the point, as results have been pretty close to even.

My point was that it was close enough to argue. LC believes in the transcendence of the NFC.

In any event, Brady gets hit with at most 4 games, which seems excessive compared to what happened with the Rice and Peterson situations. My guess it gets lowered to two, not that it matters. KC and Dallas play in the Super Bowl. LC gets to crow another NFC title.

J

 

[dgfred]

Rice and Pederson were conduct issues... this is a game integrity issue.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Rice and Pederson were conduct issues... this is a game integrity issue.

In the playoffs no less. I will be disappointed if the NFL backs down to Bob Kraft.

 

[JollyRoger]

The Patriots' punishment was kind of soft when you consider what happened to the Saints.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The Patriots' punishment was kind of soft when you consider what happened to the Saints.

I think there is a number of people involved factor. The thing with the Saints, basically every player on the defense was demonstrably involved. I think it is BS that a couple guys got the huge suspensions that they got, but from a practical standpoint if they had said "two games for all who participated" they couldn't have fielded a team for that two game span, so they named 'ringleaders' and focused the blow on them.

In this case, even though I think most people would consider the actual cheating that was done to have had a greater influence on the game, there is really only one guy demonstrably involved. Although, any player who is honest would tell you they knew the ball was flat if they touched it, so centers, backs, and receivers all knew about it, even if that doesn't count as being "in on it."

 

[onejayhawk]

The Patriots' punishment was kind of soft when you consider what happened to the Saints.

Soft? Are you secretly a Republican? This is over the top harsh. Ridiculously harsh.

Look at the basic accusation. The staff intentionally removed air from game balls. There is no violence, no action against the other team. This is a noncompliant equipment issue. You do not pull out handcuffs for a busted tail light.

J

 

[Light Cleric]

Again, the penalty is also for failure to cooperate with the investigation and not being honest. For example, Brady outright lied and said he didn't know Jim McNally which is a complete joke. I don't know these Pats fans can possibly read the texts between McNally and Jaestremski and still try to make this a non-issue.

They cheated to get an advantage of the other teams. That's what you do when you cheat. Whether or not it was a physical action directed at them is meaningless. Actual white collar crime isn't violent, but it's still crime.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Soft? Are you secretly a Republican? This is over the top harsh. Ridiculously harsh.

Look at the basic accusation. The staff intentionally removed air from game balls. There is no violence, no action against the other team. This is a noncompliant equipment issue. You do not pull out handcuffs for a busted tail light.

J

Sure. And corked bats in baseball are just fine. And if a basketball team can make one hoop bigger than the other and switch them at half time the game is still competitive. And a boxer with a sap in his glove makes for a fair fight.

Noncompliant equipment means there was no fair game played. The NFL gets upset when people think "hey, there are thugs in the game; dopers and wife beaters and who knows what." But that is no harm to the league at all compared to having people start thinking "hey, this f'ing game is rigged."

This is the worst thing in professional sports since Pete Rose got caught betting on his team's games.

 

[sophie]

I don't think this should be an issue. Ball-tampering doesn't really affect football like it does in baseball, where a little spit or scuff can make a ball do things that no batter could be expected to anticipate. In football both offense and defense are trying to catch the ball so anything that makes a receiver's job easier also makes the back's job easier. The only situation where the two would be comparable would be if you had the kicking team oiling/lubing up balls prior to kickoff to increase the likelihood of the receiving team fumbling on the return. That's a change you can make on the ball that would directly impact the other team. If you're already giving each side their own balls and letting them adjust those balls to their preferences, I don't really understand why a parameter needs to be established. Either do like baseball and have strictly regulated rules regarding balls (i.e. everybody uses the same ones; nobody gets to touch them before the game starts) or just do away with pressure regulations. The rules as they currently exist are rather nonsensical to me.

That being said, rules are rules. If you break them and then lie about breaking them, you should expect to be punished for that.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think this should be an issue. Ball-tampering doesn't really affect football like it does in baseball, where a little spit or scuff can make a ball do things that no batter could be expected to anticipate. In football both offense and defense are trying to catch the ball so anything that makes a receiver's job easier also makes the back's job easier. The only situation where the two would be comparable would be if you had the kicking team oiling/lubing up balls prior to kickoff to increase the likelihood of the receiving team fumbling on the return. That's a change you can make on the ball that would directly impact the other team. If you're already giving each side their own balls and letting them adjust those balls to their preferences, I don't really understand why a parameter needs to be established. Either do like baseball and have strictly regulated rules regarding balls (i.e. everybody uses the same ones; nobody gets to touch them before the game starts) or just do away with pressure regulations. The rules as they currently exist are rather nonsensical to me.

That being said, rules are rules. If you break them and then lie about breaking them, you should expect to be punished for that.

A deflated ball is much easier to hold on to. Since the offense is primarily holding the ball, and the defense is actively trying to strip the ball, a deflated ball is a huge advantage for the offense. The parameter is established for that reason.

 

[onejayhawk]

Again, the penalty is also for failure to cooperate with the investigation and not being honest. For example, Brady outright lied and said he didn't know Jim McNally which is a complete joke. I don't know these Pats fans can possibly read the texts between McNally and Jaestremski and still try to make this a non-issue.

They cheated to get an advantage of the other teams. That's what you do when you cheat. Whether or not it was a physical action directed at them is meaningless. Actual white collar crime isn't violent, but it's still crime.

If true, that is worse than what the Patriots did, verging on official misconduct.

J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The Patriots would have been better off to just swallow and salute, because I think the NFL tried to apply punishment with "make this go away" in mind. They want enough flesh for people to settle down, without such a hammer that people are encouraged to recognize that this really did compromise the games.

But since the Patriots are forcing the issue, now ESPN has started digging and today they are covering the story of the Patriots being warned not to tamper with the football after they got caught colluding with a ball boy...in 2004.

EDIT: In terms of pure hilarity...there is apparently a movement among Patriots fans to demand that the championship banner not be hung until Brady gets off his suspension. They are using the slogan "No Brady, no banner," which most fans recognize as true...but most fans also wonder if Brady's importance is a result of him being a cheater.

 

[sophie]

A deflated ball is much easier to hold on to. Since the offense is primarily holding the ball, and the defense is actively trying to strip the ball, a deflated ball is a huge advantage for the offense. The parameter is established for that reason.

Then why let teams scuff and/or alter air pressure at all? Why give each side their own ball? Just do like baseball and have everybody use the same balls distributed straight-from-box by officiators during play?

I just don't understand why 11 psi is acceptable and 9 isn't. Wouldn't both be giving an "unfair advantage" to the offense that they wouldn't be getting from a normally inflated ball?

 

[ummmm........]

In football both offense and defense are trying to catch the ball

As an old-school CFB fan I delighted in seeing this. After seeing an NFL fan post it I will reply the instant my convulsive histrionics allow me to get up off the floor . . .

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Then why let teams scuff and/or alter air pressure at all? Why give each side their own ball? Just do like baseball and have everybody use the same balls distributed straight-from-box by officiators during play?

I just don't understand why 11 psi is acceptable and 9 isn't. Wouldn't both be giving an "unfair advantage" to the offense that they wouldn't be getting from a normally inflated ball?

They let each team break in their own footballs because someone has to do it. The game would suck if they had to play it with brand new footballs. So they task every team with breaking them in. They used to make the home team provide all the game balls, but that was an advantage to the home team because different break ins do make a difference in how the ball grips (even at the designated inflation pressure) so they switched to each team bringing balls they had broken in themselves for when they were on offense.

The basics of inflation pressure and the manufacturing specs of the ball are the same for everyone...except the Patriots, apparently.

 

[onejayhawk]

[quote="RetiredJudge]A couple of random thoughts

1. It isn't even "knew about it". Worse, it was "generally aware". Wells didn't have enough evidence to say Brady knew about it, or he would have.

2. D___, you say there were SPECIFIC psi for those footballs. Okay, let's go with that. So the refs measured them at 12.5 when they got them. How did some minimum-wage, part-time fat guy then take 13 balls into the crapper and get them all to some SPECIFIC psi in only 90 seconds? Can he ensure quality control while falling over the toilet? Is that what you really want as a key component of your big scheme? Isn't that sort of Three Stooges?

3. It is worth reading the arbitration demand letter from the attorney for the Player's Association to Troy Vincent. After reading that Wells report, it was refreshing to see some crisp legal writing. Goodell needs to sit this one out, and for crying out loud get a trial lawyer in there to handle it for the NFL. Send Wells on paid vacation for a few weeks. Damn, he is making us look bad. At this point I don't care who did who, I'm just tired of sh*tty lawyering.[/quote]

Just sayin'

J

 

[dgfred]

Saying what?

The guys admitted lowering the pressure. Their own team suspended them.

If he was generally aware of it... he shouldn't have said he wasn't.

The text clearly show they were discussing 'things' with T.Brady.

Good lawyering has nothing to do with it... unless he is trying to get away with something. I know it wasn't the appeal from the Patriots... losing weight for goodness sake .

Goodell is in a good spot for once IMO... overseeing an appeal of his own ruling .

 

[IglooDame]

D___, you say there were SPECIFIC psi for those footballs. Okay, let's go with that. So the refs measured them at 12.5 when they got them. How did some minimum-wage, part-time fat guy then take 13 balls into the crapper and get them all to some SPECIFIC psi in only 90 seconds? Can he ensure quality control while falling over the toilet? Is that what you really want as a key component of your big scheme? Isn't that sort of Three Stooges?

Personally, I'm presuming he had years of practice.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Personally, I'm presuming he had years of practice.

Me too, though it isn't really required. Rather than listen to the pontification of retired judges about how impossible this would seem to be I have done some experimenting...admittedly with a basketball. I can stick an inflation needle into the port with my thumb capping it off and then "burp it" by releasing my thumb and sticking it back on...and get the same drop in pressure every time. This after about ten tries to get the rhythm of it.

I'm going to guess that an equipment guy employed by an NFL team is probably more adept at this kind of thing than I am.

 

[Light Cleric]

I feel I should note that he's now "formerly" employed He got fired by the Patriots because he was just that innocent. That's what you do when people have done nothing wrong: you fire them.