Ngomele civilization, a modmodmod for Orbis

[Opera]

Here is a list of unit models I would like to see for the Ngomele: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_12d82zt6wt ;

Also, any thoughts on the previous doc about spells?

 

[Opera]

Added some bits in the first post about 'Development'. Hopefully I'll get more feedback

 

[A Golden Dragon]

i would, if i knew how to... perhaps i'll figure out next week

 

[Kalina]

I don't believe that making self-oriented Waves very different is necessary. It sounds fun, but current magic system seems complicated enough. You’ve got four Coasts with three Waves each, and have to plan your nodes (for affinity and/or better effects of spells) and spells much more than with basic magic system. Anything more might be a little over the top, at least in first version, like current Kha system – fun, but rather hard to get used to. If you want to make self-oriented Waves feel bit different then mana-based ones, you can make it’s spells power depend on combat I-V promotions rather then mana nodes. The stronger Shur is, stronger spell is.
I like most of spells and passive effects. Eyes based Shur, with its +1 visibility and sentry will be very powerful using WildWildWorld option Also, you’ve got lots of ideas for Creation in Plant Civ thread. It seems that Creation is finally finding its way into Orbis How about Claws spells giving Shur ability to shapechange into different animals ? This would make Claw based Shurs even more melee orientated.

 

[Opera]

I don't believe that making self-oriented Waves very different is necessary. It sounds fun, but current magic system seems complicated enough.

Anything more might be a little over the top, at least in first version, like current Kha system – fun, but rather hard to get used to.

Ah, I think you're right. I might have crossed the line here... And it resolves a thing for me personally

You’ve got four Coasts with three Waves each

Not exactly. The Green Sea 'Coast' doesn't have any Wave; it's a Wave and a Coast at the same time; it's more basic than any other Coast but also much harder to get. It's the core and the outside, the alpha and the omega; it all boils down to this ultimately, that's why it's necessary for Shur to know it.

and have to plan your nodes (for affinity and/or better effects of spells) and spells much more than with basic magic system.

I'm not sure about this yet. I'm still thinking they might get away without any mana; but I would need a good idea to NOT waste mana and maybe turn it into something else...

If you want to make self-oriented Waves feel bit different then mana-based ones, you can make it’s spells power depend on combat I-V promotions rather then mana nodes. The stronger Shur is, stronger spell is.

I'm not sure how I can do that though. Maybe I could tie those to some buildings... Hmmm...

I like most of spells and passive effects. Eyes based Shur, with its +1 visibility and sentry will be very powerful using WildWildWorld option

Yes I thought it would be a nice addition with this option in mind.

Also, you’ve got lots of ideas for Creation in Plant Civ thread. It seems that Creation is finally finding its way into Orbis

Heh, it's off-topic! But yes, I think Creation mana will come with the Re Ki.

How about Claws spells giving Shur ability to shapechange into different animals ? This would make Claw based Shurs even more melee orientated.

Actually, I wanted this ability for a druid replacement... I'm not sure what to do know as I like your idea...

 

[Kalina]

I'm not sure about this yet. I'm still thinking they might get away without any mana; but I would need a good idea to NOT waste mana and maybe turn it into something else...

Right now, both heroes and Heheishurs have affinity for Nature. If they don't need other mana then nature, then those units become very powerful, as you can easily grab 3-4 nature nodes (+1 from council). They can, of course, use kind of mana unusable for other civs (like Mechanos use Refined Mana) but this way all abilities based on this new mana are also very powerful - like affinity for mechanos so they must be used carefully. On the other hand, it opens many design paths - for example any converted 'new' mana node may have random chance to become active or inactive every turn, so your heroes', Heheishurs' and spells' power depend on current state of Green Sea - and seas aren't the most stable of things I know.

I'm not sure how I can do that though. Maybe I could tie those to some buildings... Hmmm...

I'm not very good at modding, but maybe it's possible to make ability that becomes active if unit have, for example, Combat III and Flesh. When used, it would add "powerful shur" promotion, that would disable standard version of spell and allow better one. But I have no idea if it'd work this way and this would require some way to hide unnecessery icons (is it possible at all ?)

Actually, I wanted this ability for a druid replacement... I'm not sure what to do know as I like your idea...

Oh, I forgot about druids. Between all those waves and tribal flavor of Shurs there isn't lot of design space left for druids. I though about them being wandering protectors of ordinary people (well, gnolls) with ability to cure disease, increase health in cities or maybe even spawn resources (they show others how to care about sheep, cows better or how to find and use duskwood). They are peaceful, nonagressive part gnoll society.

 

[Valkrionn]

About the combat promos affecting spell strength... Without a large amount of python, best way in my opinion are cloned spells, varying in power, tied to promos. First one is the Wave promotion... Next requires a combat level and the wave promo that is autoacquired and overwrites the first promo, and so on for as many as you need.

As for what to do about mana... How about a spell available on nodes, that creates a special feature? The node is removed, feature generates extra food/whatever you feel appropriate. Think of it as using a massive amount of mana to bring the terrain and everything in it closer to the Green Sea.

 

[Opera]

Right now, both heroes and Heheishurs have affinity for Nature. If they don't need other mana then nature, then those units become very powerful, as you can easily grab 3-4 nature nodes (+1 from council).

Except if they can't build nodes. I already removed this ability from Shur...

On the other hand, it opens many design paths - for example any converted 'new' mana node may have random chance to become active or inactive every turn, so your heroes', Heheishurs' and spells' power depend on current state of Green Sea - and seas aren't the most stable of things I know.

Ahah, nothing related really but it made me think they could use a 'tide system', even though I don't know how it would affect them

As for what to do about mana... How about a spell available on nodes, that creates a special feature? The node is removed, feature generates extra food/whatever you feel appropriate. Think of it as using a massive amount of mana to bring the terrain and everything in it closer to the Green Sea.

If I add an improvement, converting the mana into something else, will the AI use it?

I'm not very good at modding, but maybe it's possible to make ability that becomes active if unit have, for example, Combat III and Flesh. When used, it would add "powerful shur" promotion, that would disable standard version of spell and allow better one. But I have no idea if it'd work this way and this would require some way to hide unnecessery icons (is it possible at all ?)

About the combat promos affecting spell strength... Without a large amount of python, best way in my opinion are cloned spells, varying in power, tied to promos. First one is the Wave promotion... Next requires a combat level and the wave promo that is autoacquired and overwrites the first promo, and so on for as many as you need.

Actually, seems a lot of work for something very lore-y; Mvadang was the one to 'banish' the self-oriented Waves, thinking they were a hindrance against the development of a good diplomatic mentality. So I think I'll just let them be like the others

Oh, I forgot about druids. Between all those waves and tribal flavor of Shurs there isn't lot of design space left for druids. I though about them being wandering protectors of ordinary people (well, gnolls) with ability to cure disease, increase health in cities or maybe even spawn resources (they show others how to care about sheep, cows better or how to find and use duskwood). They are peaceful, nonagressive part gnoll society.

I could make them an upgrade of the Divine Kha. As the Divine Kha, they would be defensive only, able to spread religions but with some Shur spells thrown in and an affinity to health (cure disease and such).

However, I think a shapeshifting ability would better fit the Animals Wave than the Claws one.

As for the forms themselves... I had two in mind for the Druid: Wave form and Tree form, invisible on water and in forests respectively. But I'm thinking a Bear form, a Hyena form and a Tortoise form could be interesting.

-----

Also, I'm thinking about adding 'global passives' to each Coast (but the Green Sea one) because they're mutually exclusive.

Body units would have a chance to gain a promotion from combat: Adrenaline Rush, giving +1 movement and the possibility to attack multiple times during a turn. There may be a 'neverending effect' to suppress here though.

Nature units perhaps would have a summon perk or bonuses when in forests/jungles.

Spirit... argh. This one really needs work

 

[Valkrionn]

If I add an improvement, converting the mana into something else, will the AI use it?

If it has useful yields, and can be built on a mana node, you'll have to fight to keep OTHER AI's from building it.

 

[Opera]

So, I added a bonus, the Blackstone, that is harvested with a Blackstone Trading Post (lame name!), built on mana, turning the mana into said Blackstone.

Blackstone will be used as a vicinity prerequisite (so you need it in the city cross) for some buildings and some units.

I'll also be adding a grassland improvement called the Gunero (will have upgrades) with a range of 2 and producing culture. Basically, it's meant to represent a great area of hunting and gathering of some fruits. This improvement will have a tiny chance to pop a Blackstone resource out of the void.
If I find out how, I might even tweak so it will spawn it in a plot within its range rather than on itself; and the chance to pop another one will decrease with each occurrence of the resource within the range.
This way, it will simulate finding new veins within the hunting grounds.

Also, even though I invested a lot of time in creating this feature, I'm thinking about removing the hard population cap. But I still want to somehow make them have small cities, rural ones. Should I go back to a 1-tile radius? If so, I would have to reduce the range of Guneros...

Or does anyone have another idea?

 

[Opera]

I'm nearly done with the units. After that, I'll have to do some work on the improvements and then on the Shur spells and the documentation. When all this will be done, I'll release.

Any thought on the immortal replacement? civ_king proposed that it gains +10% strength after each kill... I'm not sure how to make this work. Woud a PromotionFromCombat called Devoured Strength that is stackable work?

Of course, I'd need a lot of unit art... I'm basically using the same model (but different button!) for every unit right now

 

[Kalina]

As for the forms themselves... I had two in mind for the Druid: Wave form and Tree form, invisible on water and in forests respectively. But I'm thinking a Bear form, a Hyena form and a Tortoise form could be interesting.

You can give Tree and Wave forms to druids (btw, I like this idea, very creative), and leave others with Shur. After all, druids in FFH usually don't have many spells.

-----

Also, I'm thinking about adding 'global passives' to each Coast (but the Green Sea one) because they're mutually exclusive.

Body units would have a chance to gain a promotion from combat: Adrenaline Rush, giving +1 movement and the possibility to attack multiple times during a turn. There may be a 'neverending effect' to suppress here though.

Nature units perhaps would have a summon perk or bonuses when in forests/jungles.

Sounds good, but spells, passives and global passives might be little too much, at least if you get it at low level. But should work good as a capstone ability, after getting fourth level spell.

Spirit... argh. This one really needs work

For Temperance, if idea of sacrificing something to get something else is viable, maybe something like this(please note, that I have no idea if it's possible to code this way):
1) Meditation: Shur becomes held for 3 turns (casting deley?), after 3 turns he have 50% chance to gain 1-3 xp. This way, you could level you Shur without combat at cost of not using it for other things. Passive effect might give a little magic resistance.
2) Images of Remorse, but I'd give more chance for Guilt promotion and make some chance (like 20% ?) that spell affect Shur that casted this spell. Passive: a little elemental resistance.
3) Shur can cast spell again this turn, but loses ability to cast spells next turn (or even just a good chance to be unable to cast spells next turn ?). Little worse than spellstaff, but it's easier to get L3 shur spells than L3 arcane spells. Passive: gains Spirit Guide for free.
4) Can become 'saint' the way sidar units become shades. Those saints act like great prophet (can join cities, build altar and so on). Passive ability: don't know if necessary, but maybe something like +50% agains disciple units ?
I see them as monks among Ngomele Unseen Haven is great spell that would fit here, but is a little unbalanced. Not very useful on many maps, but insanly powerful on maps with lots of chockpoints, like Erebus-script maps.

for Spirt:
1) Don't know yet. Maybe something about caliming spirits to remove enraged/mad/crazy promotions ? might also be useful in event 'haunted house' )
2) Spirt Twisting. A bit complicated, but with good documentation (including chance for broken spirit and ascended spirit) will do. Immunity to fear as a passive ability (you know your spirit from within, so you can't be scared now)
3) We need offensive spell here, to make 'cast again' abilities actually useful. A version of Spirit Twisting that adds harmful promotions to enemies might work. For a passive, maybe increased chance to gain xp via channeling.
4) Reincarnation. Castable only after hero has dies (and would need two versions, as there are two heroes). Creates random Ngomele unit that starts with hero and spellcasting abilities of Banung the Blind or hero and combat abilities of Nga Eye-Eater, depending on version you used. So heroes can get reincarnated as better units, but also as worse. It might be needed to prevent killing and reincarnating heroes until you get good units somehow. For a passive, maybe immunity to broken spirit and mindwrecked, so you can use Spirit Twisting without risk (but still have only 65% chance to get a benefit)

for creation:
I'd use some spells suggested in Re Ki thread. Don't even have to be same spells, as many were suggested

 

[Kalina]

So, I added a bonus, the Blackstone, that is harvested with a Blackstone Trading Post (lame name!), built on mana, turning the mana into said Blackstone.

What is blackstone and why it replaces mana ? Flavorwise, I mean

Also, even though I invested a lot of time in creating this feature, I'm thinking about removing the hard population cap. But I still want to somehow make them have small cities, rural ones. Should I go back to a 1-tile radius? If so, I would have to reduce the range of Guneros...

Or does anyone have another idea?

I like populations cap better than 1-tile radius cities. IIRC, Fall Further giant civ (Jotnar, I believe) was changed from 1-tile radious to normal cities some time ago. I don't know why it was done, but if you as them, it might give you some ideas whether it's a good way to go.

 

[Valkrionn]

What is blackstone and why it replaces mana ? Flavorwise, I mean

I like populations cap better than 1-tile radius cities. IIRC, Fall Further giant civ (Jotnar, I believe) was changed from 1-tile radious to normal cities some time ago. I don't know why it was done, but if you as them, it might give you some ideas whether it's a good way to go.

Personally, I like both mechanics so I'm not sure which one I like better. I think for a carnivorous civ like this, a popcap would be best... But that's up to you.

In FF, the Jotnar are still 1-tile radius and a size 10 cap. In FFPlus, they have a 3-tile radius and require 3 food per pop (Normal civs are still 2 in FF). Reduces spam compared to what it had been, fits an uncommon race better.

 

[Opera]

You can give Tree and Wave forms to druids (btw, I like this idea, very creative), and leave others with Shur. After all, druids in FFH usually don't have many spells.

I might go with this then

So, Bear, Hyena and Tortoise for Animals Shur?

Sounds good, but spells, passives and global passives might be little too much, at least if you get it at low level. But should work good as a capstone ability, after getting fourth level spell.

Hmm, you're right. I can include some of my ideas as simple passive effects anyway.

For Temperance, if idea of sacrificing something to get something else is viable, maybe something like this(please note, that I have no idea if it's possible to code this way):

Foreword: I like the ideas you proposed
Now I might be able to create all the spells I need to release.

1) Meditation: Shur becomes held for 3 turns (casting deley?), after 3 turns he have 50% chance to gain 1-3 xp. This way, you could level you Shur without combat at cost of not using it for other things. Passive effect might give a little magic resistance.

I like this one. Would give a random amount of XP (between 1 and 3, as you said) and the amount will be raised if outside in the wild (2-4 xp) or if there's a Mdahir in the city (1-5 xp). Probably will lower the chance according to level. The more experienced the unit is, the less it will gain from meditation.

2) Images of Remorse, but I'd give more chance for Guilt promotion and make some chance (like 20% ?) that spell affect Shur that casted this spell. Passive: a little elemental resistance.

Yes, good idea. I didn't think about recycling it but it fits and is powerful enough... Like a semi-Blinding Light.

3) Shur can cast spell again this turn, but loses ability to cast spells next turn (or even just a good chance to be unable to cast spells next turn ?). Little worse than spellstaff, but it's easier to get L3 shur spells than L3 arcane spells. Passive: gains Spirit Guide for free.

It could be implement, yes... Gaining one more spell this turn in exchange for the next turn? Interesting

4) Can become 'saint' the way sidar units become shades. Those saints act like great prophet (can join cities, build altar and so on). Passive ability: don't know if necessary, but maybe something like +50% agains disciple units ?
I see them as monks among Ngomele

Or maybe a new kind of people? Like "Matriarch" or something, giving +2, +4, +4, +4. Something REALLY cool so that you will think about losing your Heheishur.

for Spirt:

Which one? Breath or Dreams?

1) Don't know yet. Maybe something about caliming spirits to remove enraged/mad/crazy promotions ? might also be useful in event 'haunted house' )

Yeah, we could use that. Always wanted one, I should've thought about it

2) Spirt Twisting. A bit complicated, but with good documentation (including chance for broken spirit and ascended spirit) will do. Immunity to fear as a passive ability (you know your spirit from within, so you can't be scared now)

Yes, I will update the documentation.

3) We need offensive spell here, to make 'cast again' abilities actually useful. A version of Spirit Twisting that adds harmful promotions to enemies might work. For a passive, maybe increased chance to gain xp via channeling.

You mean from meditation?

4) Reincarnation. Castable only after hero has dies (and would need two versions, as there are two heroes). Creates random Ngomele unit that starts with hero and spellcasting abilities of Banung the Blind or hero and combat abilities of Nga Eye-Eater, depending on version you used. So heroes can get reincarnated as better units, but also as worse. It might be needed to prevent killing and reincarnating heroes until you get good units somehow. For a passive, maybe immunity to broken spirit and mindwrecked, so you can use Spirit Twisting without risk (but still have only 65% chance to get a benefit)

This one is good too Dunno how to prevent exploit... Maybe a "cooldown promotion", making the unit needs 4 turns of rest to be able to cast again? Or maybe just 8 turns of casting time.

for creation:
I'd use some spells suggested in Re Ki thread. Don't even have to be same spells, as many were suggested

But they wouldn't use creation anyway.

What is blackstone and why it replaces mana ? Flavorwise, I mean

Blackstone is a mana cristal 'infected' by the Green Sea energy of a Shur. It's nothing evil, it has just gained a black tint during the infection process. It's much more solid and malleable than a mana cristal and as such is used in architecture and, sometimes, in weapons.

Ngomele don't know how to use mana. They discovered the ability to "turn" it to something they find useful, so they used it.

I like populations cap better than 1-tile radius cities. IIRC, Fall Further giant civ (Jotnar, I believe) was changed from 1-tile radious to normal cities some time ago. I don't know why it was done, but if you as them, it might give you some ideas whether it's a good way to go.

Hmmm. They also had a 8-pop cap that got removed. But it wasn't possible to increase it... Heh, I don't know. The pop cap feels a bit weird. I see three ways to give them a "rural, low density" feel:

1. 1-radius cities;
2. pop cap on cities;
3. 4 food point consumed per population;

So, well, I don't know.

 

[Valkrionn]

1-radius cities does NOT encourage a 'Rural, low density' feel. They may have smaller cities, but the player WILL spam them over the entire continent. Basically making one gigantic city. That's the whole reason we swapped the Jotnar to low pop, 3 radius cities.

 

[Opera]

Personally, I like both mechanics so I'm not sure which one I like better. I think for a carnivorous civ like this, a popcap would be best... But that's up to you.

In FF, the Jotnar are still 1-tile radius and a size 10 cap. In FFPlus, they have a 3-tile radius and require 3 food per pop (Normal civs are still 2 in FF). Reduces spam compared to what it had been, fits an uncommon race better.

Not so helping post I mean, I still don't know what to choose...

Let's look at it again... There's basically 4 possible combinations of the 3 ways I mentioned above:

1. 1-radius + pop cap: FF's Jotnar-like. According to what has been seen, it would encourage city spamming...
2. 4-consum + 1-radius: would probably result in very low populated cities. Again, might encourage spamming.
3. Pop cap + 4-consum: Less spam, less population...
4. 4+1+PopCap: Seems too much

And this didn't help me either.

If it may help someone in giving me more trails to follow:

The Ngomele are carnivorous creatures. Socially, they live in small cities, not much urbanized. They don't reproduce often; it's not a miraculous event like among the Jotnar but they're really slow at it, because of three things: most of the females just have other things to do, like running an empire; females bear their offspring(s) for twelve to fourteen months; females' estrous cycle is slow.

(Hmm, this tells me: 4-pop + PopCap)

 

[Opera]

1-radius cities does NOT encourage a 'Rural, low density' feel. They may have smaller cities, but the player WILL spam them over the entire continent. Basically making one gigantic city. That's the whole reason we swapped the Jotnar to low pop, 3 radius cities.

This makes me going even more towards 4-pop + PopCap. So the actual system, plus the return of the vengeance of the 4 food consumption per population point.

Thoughts?

 

[Valkrionn]

Not so helping post I mean, I still don't know what to choose...

Let's look at it again... There's basically 4 possible combinations of the 3 ways I mentioned above:

1. 1-radius + pop cap: FF's Jotnar-like. According to what has been seen, it would encourage city spamming...
2. 4-consum + 1-radius: would probably result in very low populated cities. Again, might encourage spamming.
3. Pop cap + 4-consum: Less spam, less population...
4. 4+1+PopCap: Seems too much

And this didn't help me either.

If it may help someone in giving me more trails to follow:

The Ngomele are carnivorous creatures. Socially, they live in small cities, not much urbanized. They don't reproduce often; it's not a miraculous event like among the Jotnar but they're really slow at it, because of three things: most of the females just have other things to do, like running an empire; females bear their offspring(s) for twelve to fourteen months; females' estrous cycle is slow.

(Hmm, this tells me: 4-pop + PopCap)

You could also say that their breeding cycle is still tied to the migrations of prey animals, even if they're civilized now? Most animals have a set time they can breed... Seems like it would fit.

As for which of those options I like... I think the extra food and popcap is the best. It's the only one that DOESN"T encourage urbanizing the entire continent.

The first option leads to lots of city spam.
The second option, I think, would lead to even MORE city spam. When you have lots of small cities, you need LOTS of the damn things.
The fourth option is probably the worst for spam.

 

[Opera]

You could also say that their breeding cycle is still tied to the migrations of prey animals, even if they're civilized now? Most animals have a set time they can breed... Seems like it would fit.

Probably. I'd need to read some things about reproduction patterns of animals

As for which of those options I like... I think the extra food and popcap is the best. It's the only one that DOESN"T encourage urbanizing the entire continent.

The first option leads to lots of city spam.
The second option, I think, would lead to even MORE city spam. When you have lots of small cities, you need LOTS of the damn things.
The fourth option is probably the worst for spam.

Okay, that's set, at least for next release