Ngomele civilization, a modmodmod for Orbis

[Kalina]

I might go with this then

So, Bear, Hyena and Tortoise for Animals Shur?

I'd say Hyena=>Bear=>Tortoise. 2nd lvl spell is adept-level spell, so they get wolf-like creature at KotE, and Bear at Sorcery. This way, power level is similar to shapechanging Doviello shamans. I'd put summoning spell at 0 level and let it scale with level and/or 'Animal Wave' promotions so you can summon only weak creatures early and powerful ones later.

I like this one. Would give a random amount of XP (between 1 and 3, as you said) and the amount will be raised if outside in the wild (2-4 xp) or if there's a Mdahir in the city (1-5 xp). Probably will lower the chance according to level. The more experienced the unit is, the less it will gain from meditation.

Right, exactly what I had on mind You may consider making 'wild' a place outside cultural borders to make it a little more risky

Or maybe a new kind of people? Like "Matriarch" or something, giving +2, +4, +4, +4. Something REALLY cool so that you will think about losing your Heheishur.

If Ngomele can found religions and build altar, extra Great Prophets are acually rather cool But Matriarch sound very cool, and fits much better flavorwise.

Which one? Breath or Dreams?

Souls/Breath

But they wouldn't use creation anyway.

In doc about Shur magic Creation is third wave of spirit coast

Okay, that's set, at least for next release

Please note, that I didn't play Your mod while Ngomele need 4 food per population, but wouldn't it cripple their early growth ? They tend to start neer rivers on plains, and city on plains gives 3 (2 on hill ?) food and basic plains with yurt on it gives only 2, so you have only 1 surplus food and it takes ages to grow to size 2. Of course, you start near food resource, but since they get -3 food from farms, many of them are much less useful for Ngomele then for other civs. But it seems like something that just need some playtesting

One last thing - their worldspell. I didn't find it very useful - usually you fight civs without race promotion, so worldspell hurts only you. If fighting civ with racial promotion it hurts you only a little less than enemy, and only because human is smarter than AI. It's name sound like a last line of defense, spell casted by council of shurs only in dire need, when whole race at the edge of extinction. Maybe it should deal damage when unit with racial promotion dies, but only to units without this racial promotion ? To make it defensive, not offensive spell it might work only within cultural borders.

 

[Opera]

I'd say Hyena=>Bear=>Tortoise. 2nd lvl spell is adept-level spell, so they get wolf-like creature at KotE, and Bear at Sorcery. This way, power level is similar to shapechanging Doviello shamans. I'd put summoning spell at 0 level and let it scale with level and/or 'Animal Wave' promotions so you can summon only weak creatures early and powerful ones later.

Good idea.

Hyena will be what, 4/3, 2, cannibalize?

Bear... 9, 1, 50% chance of getting Adrenaline after combat, giving +1 move and the ability to attack again; wearing off next turn or after combat.

Tortoise: 14, 1, can move on water, 10% city defense damage?

Right, exactly what I had on mind You may consider making 'wild' a place outside cultural borders to make it a little more risky

Yes, that was what I meant

If Ngomele can found religions and build altar, extra Great Prophets are acually rather cool But Matriarch sound very cool, and fits much better flavorwise.

Actually, Matriarchs could be able to build shrines and the altar too

In doc about Shur magic Creation is third wave of spirit coast

Just the same name, though... I didn't have Creation mana in mind; just the "imagination" part of the spirit.

Please note, that I didn't play Your mod while Ngomele need 4 food per population, but wouldn't it cripple their early growth ? They tend to start neer rivers on plains, and city on plains gives 3 (2 on hill ?) food and basic plains with yurt on it gives only 2, so you have only 1 surplus food and it takes ages to grow to size 2. Of course, you start near food resource, but since they get -3 food from farms, many of them are much less useful for Ngomele then for other civs. But it seems like something that just need some playtesting

Yes; Ngomele should start more near cows or pigs or sheep. Alternatively, I can give the Ngomele Citizens +1 food, but that would be a bit much on grasslands... Yeah, I think playtesting will help

One last thing - their worldspell. I didn't find it very useful - usually you fight civs without race promotion, so worldspell hurts only you. If fighting civ with racial promotion it hurts you only a little less than enemy, and only because human is smarter than AI. It's name sound like a last line of defense, spell casted by council of shurs only in dire need, when whole race at the edge of extinction. Maybe it should deal damage when unit with racial promotion dies, but only to units without this racial promotion ? To make it defensive, not offensive spell it might work only within cultural borders.

I'm all in favour of a new worldspell altogether. This one doesn't really seem appealing. Feel free to come up with something very creative; worldspells really suck usually...

-----

What about Kha? I have some ideas about them... Thought I would only work on them for next version but I'm thinking it might be judicious to put them in right now.

I'd like to hear some ideas on them before throwing out mine; just a trail: I have Kha, War Kha and Divine Kha.

 

[Opera]

I made some changes to the Ngomele's Shur doc: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_7fnpdw2d5, changes bolded.

 

[A Golden Dragon]

looking good!

8 turn cast for soul IV, well might still be worth it if the current incarnation is very lame...but i think that is unavoidable

 

[Opera]

Yes... Mostly it's to prevent an exploit. I'll make sure Reincarnation isn't utterly sucking though, like reincarnation in a workboat But remember: it can suck... but it can also rock your butt out

 

[A Golden Dragon]

BE AFRAID OF MY HEROIC WORKBOAT!!!!!

but with sucking you mean scouts or warriors? (they can be upgraded )

 

[Opera]

but with sucking you mean scouts or warriors? (they can be upgraded )

Hmm, yeah... That may be an issue...

At least, I thought of giving Nga and Banung an upgrade each. So Nga would upgrade to get Immortal abilities and Banung to get Heheishur ones, being respectively a War Kha and a Heishur.

Hmm, there's an issue. The tags I would need for the Kha and Nga aren't in LENA/Orbis yet, so it would mean an even more delayed release. I propose to postpone them for a later patch (next one hopefully) so you would be able to play LENA updated to Orbis patch K.

For this though, I'd need the above document to be completed. I want to have all the spells sorted out before doing anything

 

[Kalina]

At least, I thought of giving Nga and Banung an upgrade each. So Nga would upgrade to get Immortal abilities and Banung to get Heheishur ones, being respectively a War Kha and a Heishur.

Not sure if it's good idea. Some time ago there was a thread about upgradeable heroes in FFH forum and it wasn't considered a good idea by most. Currently, only upgradeable hero I know about is Alcinus and he have serious drawback in addition to not having hero promotion at all.

What about Kha? I have some ideas about them... Thought I would only work on them for next version but I'm thinking it might be judicious to put them in right now.

I'd like to hear some ideas on them before throwing out mine; just a trail: I have Kha, War Kha and Divine Kha.

Not much right now, but I see them as bards among Ngomele. Most of the gnoll society is not even thinking about leaving their hunting grounds and are not intrested in ways of other nations, but they need some information about surrounding civilizations. So maybe Kha are only ones leaving their territory to bring tales about other nations. In game, it might be represented by giving Kha ability to tell different tales. One that was in Amurite city can create 'tales of might wizards' building, that gives +1 xp to arcane units. Just a thought, not much thinking put into this

For this though, I'd need the above document to be completed. I want to have all the spells sorted out before doing anything

I was thinking about general design of shurs and I thought: what if different shurs were used for different purposes ? Right now, we have Nature, Body and Spirit. Maybe Nature shurs might be pure spellcasters, body shurs melee warriors and spirit ones be utility ones. In fact, existing spells almost support this version. Let's see:
Oh, one more thing - I don't want to sound like someone who's trying to force his vision I know that's a lot of ideas, but they are only ideas - it's your mod, after all And please, forgive any grammar and spelling mistakes - I'm not used to write anything longer than few sentences in english.

Nature: Nature shurs are great spellcasters, who can turn tide of battle with their offensive spells and summoned creatures. They are closly tied to land and feel best when in favourite environment. Thet excel in area damaging spells and summoning creatures. While not best in hand to hand fighting, they have some abilities that allow them to survive direct combat. They lack meditation of Spirit shurs but they make up for it with their bond with land - the more time they spend in they chosen environment the more powerful they become. All Nature shurs share two abilities - affinity towards chosen terrain and ability to summon animals. Affinity gives them small chance (5%?) to gain 1 xp every turn they spend in chosen terrain. Animal summoning allows them to summon animals native to their terrain. This ability works only in this terrain and grows in power when shur achieves new level of chosen Wave. There are three Waves of Nature Coast:
- Sky. Sky shurs feel best when under an open sky, on plains or grasslands. They wield power of air and lightning. They are also good at avoiding enemies thanks to their speed.
1) Summon animal: summons animals native to plains and grasslands and maybe flying creatures. Passive: 20% withdraw chance.
2) Binding Winds: Adds promotion to enemies in range that deals them damage every time they move (is it possible at all?). Passive: Affinity for plains and grasslands.
3) Surrounded by Storms: deals a little of lightning damage to all units in range, and autocast it again next turn (the way pillar of fire works). Passive: 50% withdraw chance.
4) Storm Dance: summons ((Level/2) + rand(0,(Level/2))) small storm elementals. Passive: shur can fly.
- Mountain. Mountain shurs feels best when in hills or mountains. They are tough and hard to kill. They can protect their allies or hurt enemies using earth itself.
1) Summon animal: summons animals native to hills and mountains. Passive: Gains Defensive promotion (double fortification bonus)
2) Shell of Stone: fortifies all units on tile. Passive: Affinity for hills and mountains.
3) Magnetic Surge: hurts units with metal weapons and the like (the more, the stronger). Passive: +2 defense strengh.
4) Animate Mountain: turns a peak till into a hill and summons a Living Moutain unit. Passive: can enter mountains.
- Leaves (it's seems your first idea was better . Leaves shurs feel better among trees then elves. They understand ways of forest and it's denizens and can use their help to hurt enemies. They despise all things unnatural and are prepared to fight those abominations.
1) Summon animal: summons animals native to forests. Passive: can take one animal companion.
2) Awaken forests: turns all surrounding forests into Awakend Forests for 1-3 turns. Enemies that enter those forest take severe damage. Passive: Affinity for forests.
3) Hurt Unnatural: deals severe damage to demons and undead and little damge to all other. Units with FoL religion are immune. Passive: 25% resist to all elements.
4) Awaken Nature Avatar: summons powerful elemental with massive strengh and bonuses to forest combat. Passive: immune to poison, holy and death damage.

Body: Body shurs are great warriors and hunters. They use magic to increase they fighting abilities, sharpen senses or even to change their bodies. While they can't command forces of nature like Nature shurs, their fighting prowess is matched by few. There are three Waves of Body Coast:
- Claws. Claws shurs are among most reckless and powerful warriors among Ngomele. They don't care about their safty as long they can kill their victim. They are also master hunters and they don't really care whether prey is an animal or a human. And even when they can't kill target, they can weaken it severly.
1) Spell: shur gains special version of rabbies promotion, that dissapears ofter one turn, but can pass normal rabbies promotion in combat. Passive: +50% vs Animals, +25% vs Orcs.
2) Rage: gives +25% strengh this turn but adds fatigued next turn. Passive: +1 Attack, -1 Defense
3) Blood of Green Sea: +2 poison combat, +20 collatoral damage, 25% to wear off each turn. Passive: hidden with stealth when in forest (I believe dark elfs do this)
4) Master of the hunt: adds marksman promotion for one turn. Passive: +1 attack, -1 defence (so +2/-2 total)
- Flesh (probably needs new name). Flesh shurs are able to change their body. They can't use powerful forms druids do, but can change into many animals to enchance their combat abilities. They can also alter their bodies so they heal faster and are not affected by diseases.
1) Recovery:heals +10% per turn until fully healed. Passive: +5% healing from combat.
2) Shapeshift into hyena: 4 strength, 2 moves, Cannibalize. Passive: Immune to diseases.
3) Shapeshift into bear: 8 strength, 1 move, can gain Adrenaline promo after combat, allowing to attack once more. Passive: can heal while moving
4) Shapeshift into tortoise: 16 strength, 1 move, can bombard cities. Passive: +10% healing from combat.
- Eyes. Thanks to magic that sharpen their senses, few beings in Erebus can hide from well-trained Eyes shur. Being great scouts and sentinels, they spend much of their time guarding borders of Ngomele lands.
1) Spell: adds sentry1 to units in stack. Passive: immune to first strikes.
2) Spell: blinds and gives -100% withdraw to units in range. Passive: +1 visibility.
3) Spell: Adds +3 first strikes promotion to units in stack. Unlike dance of blades, it doesn't wear of. Passive: +50% vs Illusions.
4) Divination: reveals location of high (6+?) level enemy units. Don't know if it's even possible - Scions can find Alcinus this way, but it seems rather different. Passive: Can see invisible.

As you can see, there's a lot of synergy within Coasts - shapechanged shurs still can use it's Claws abilities if have both Waves, Nature shur with all 3 Waves level up rather quickly on forested grassland hill. And they are playing diffrent roles in game, probably to even further extend than mages of normal civs.
I like current Spirit Coast, but don't have ideas for Creation Wave. Every idea I can think about is somehow connected with manipulating dreams of other beings ;>

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, Korinna is an upgradeable hero.

 

[Opera]

Edited the doc: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_7fnpdw2d5

I'm not sure I like the 'xp on X terrain' thing; first, I can't do it for peaks and hills, and then... I don't know, I don't really like it

Same with the rabbies thing; at least I didn't exactly get it.

And I really liked your other ideas; my edit is mostly yours in fact

Do you remember why upgradeable heroes weren't liked?

 

[Kalina]

I'm not sure I like the 'xp on X terrain' thing; first, I can't do it for peaks and hills, and then... I don't know, I don't really like it

An idea was to allow Nature shurs to gain xp little faster. Spirit ones have meditation, Body shurs are good at fighting so get XP from kills. Nature shurs don't have those abilities so they fall behind, as casting spell doesn't give xp. But I expected it can't be done :>

Same with the rabbies thing; at least I didn't exactly get it.

Here idea was to add negative promotion to shur who pass it in combat. But with rabbies you have chance to lose your unit (enraged promotion) so I wanted to make it little more safe for your unit (as you have rabbies only when you want, chance to lose it is lower)

Do you remember why upgradeable heroes weren't liked?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=337414& In general, people were talking about game balance of getting hero early vs getting powerful one later.

 

[Opera]

An idea was to allow Nature shurs to gain xp little faster. Spirit ones have meditation, Body shurs are good at fighting so get XP from kills. Nature shurs don't have those abilities so they fall behind, as casting spell doesn't give xp. But I expected it can't be done :>

Hmmm... What could they use to gain xp then?

Here idea was to add negative promotion to shur who pass it in combat. But with rabbies you have chance to lose your unit (enraged promotion) so I wanted to make it little more safe for your unit (as you have rabbies only when you want, chance to lose it is lower)

Oh, like a "dirty blow"? Mirroring Rage, we could have a Filthy/Dirty Blow thing, wearing off after combat and giving rabbies or diseased or something else to units in the stack...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=337414& In general, people were talking about game balance of getting hero early vs getting powerful one later.

Ok, that's what I thought. I'm putting this away for now then.

When we will have resolved the two above things; passive for Nature Level II and Claws Level I spell, I could start working on them

 

[Opera]

Oh, and we need the Green Sea spells. I forgot them

I think Green Boom might be the last one, the third level; remember that Foam-Touched can't use any Green Sea spells yet.

And Level IV Eyes isn't really interesting imo.

 

[Kalina]

Hmmm... What could they use to gain xp then?

Don't really know. I've be toying with some ideas, from increasing passive xp to spells having small chance to give 1 xp every time they are casted, but didn't find anything I really liked. I wanted them to be connected to chosen environment, but as you mentioned, it's not something that can be done.

Oh, like a "dirty blow"? Mirroring Rage, we could have a Filthy/Dirty Blow thing, wearing off after combat and giving rabbies or diseased or something else to units in the stack...

It's what I had in mind. Even if they can't kill an enemy, they can weaken him for others to kill.

About Green Sea spells - are they also going to have passives ? We have enough good and interesting 'old' spells, I belive.
1) Drink from the Sea. Don't know if 1xp/combat isn't too much, but I'd leave it here for now, for playtesting purposes. If passives are in, this can give some small (10% max) bonuses and penalties to combat and spell damage, representing tides of the Green Sea. I believe it can be done with two promotions, one giving bonus and having random chance to give other one and remove itself every turn and second being opposite.
2) Mark of Health. Both spell and passive are fine.
3) Green Boom. Maybe it should require Well of the Green, so you can't cast it in newly conquered cities. For a passive - a "One with the Sea' promotion, that would remove gnoll racial promotion and grant magic immunity, some -% to enemy magic resistance and 'is not alive'. Shur is no longer human (well, gnoll) being but rather a magical creature. Oh, and how about having to take at least one lvl4 spell before being able to take this one ? Don't know if it's necessary, but seems to fit. Yet, probably more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Opera]

Don't really know. I've be toying with some ideas, from increasing passive xp to spells having small chance to give 1 xp every time they are casted, but didn't find anything I really liked. I wanted them to be connected to chosen environment, but as you mentioned, it's not something that can be done.

Actually, I can do the environment thing... I was thinking about doing it by XML uniquely but I can use a PyPerTurn thing... I don't know which formula I should use though...

It's what I had in mind. Even if they can't kill an enemy, they can weaken him for others to kill.

Okay, I'll put it in

About Green Sea spells - are they also going to have passives ? We have enough good and interesting 'old' spells, I belive.
1) Drink from the Sea. Don't know if 1xp/combat isn't too much, but I'd leave it here for now, for playtesting purposes. If passives are in, this can give some small (10% max) bonuses and penalties to combat and spell damage, representing tides of the Green Sea. I believe it can be done with two promotions, one giving bonus and having random chance to give other one and remove itself every turn and second being opposite.
2) Mark of Health. Both spell and passive are fine.
3) Green Boom. Maybe it should require Well of the Green, so you can't cast it in newly conquered cities. For a passive - a "One with the Sea' promotion, that would remove gnoll racial promotion and grant magic immunity, some -% to enemy magic resistance and 'is not alive'. Shur is no longer human (well, gnoll) being but rather a magical creature. Oh, and how about having to take at least one lvl4 spell before being able to take this one ? Don't know if it's necessary, but seems to fit. Yet, probably more trouble than it's worth.

Okay, that's what I thought; though isn't Mark of Health's passive already used in the Heart wave? (level II iirc)

I'm not sure if we need passives for them... I was thinking of just allowing the spells to be casted by Shur+, without having to choose a promotion.

 

[Kalina]

Actually, I can do the environment thing... I was thinking about doing it by XML uniquely but I can use a PyPerTurn thing... I don't know which formula I should use though...

I don't know if I understand you correctly. If you're asking how to do it, I can't help you. If you're asking for chances to gain xp, I think 10% per turn for every promo is ok. You can reasonebly hope to have two of them working, and it's 20% per turn, just like potency. Even with Arcane leader and all three working, it's 50% per turn - less then Amurites. It's also slower than meditation or combat, but you don't have to risk anything - just sit and wait. Last question is - do you like it enough to put it in ?

I'm not sure if we need passives for them... I was thinking of just allowing the spells to be casted by Shur+, without having to choose a promotion.

I like it better your way (this is - free spell and no passives), to be honest I put those just in case.

 

[Opera]

I don't know if I understand you correctly. If you're asking how to do it, I can't help you. If you're asking for chances to gain xp, I think 10% per turn for every promo is ok. You can reasonebly hope to have two of them working, and it's 20% per turn, just like potency. Even with Arcane leader and all three working, it's 50% per turn - less then Amurites. It's also slower than meditation or combat, but you don't have to risk anything - just sit and wait. Last question is - do you like it enough to put it in ?

Yes, I was asking for the chance of getting XP. So, 10% chance per promotion? Which promotions? The Level II of each Nature wave?

Also, I can't find a way to do the "damage on move" for Air II. So we would need another spell here.

Then I would also need to know which animal(s) can be summoned by the Summon spells. The spell itself is available early but the number and the kind of units will increase with each further promotion in this wave. So if you have Sky III, you might get, say, Griffons, while you can't with Sky II.

I like it better your way (this is - free spell and no passives), to be honest I put those just in case.

Okay, it's in then

I'll modify the doc soonish.

 

[Opera]

Updated the doc: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_7fnpdw2d5

I still have Creation left empty... But I'm going to start working on the others anyway. It's time!

 

[Kalina]

Yes, I was asking for the chance of getting XP. So, 10% chance per promotion? Which promotions? The Level II of each Nature wave?

Right. It have to be rather early to be useful, a level II (at KotE) seems ok. And if 10% turns out too low or too high, you can always change it in later patch.

Also, I can't find a way to do the "damage on move" for Air II. So we would need another spell here.

Hmm... what about a spell that adds "-1 terrain movement cost'' to units in stack ? Or maybe something like '+1 movement cost to enemies in range'' ?
And about Eyes IV - I wonder if 'stealing' enemy's map fits here ? It's possible to do with ratcatcher, so should be possible to do via spell, but don't know if it's fun and useful enough for IV level spell.

Then I would also need to know which animal(s) can be summoned by the Summon spells. The spell itself is available early but the number and the kind of units will increase with each further promotion in this wave. So if you have Sky III, you might get, say, Griffons, while you can't with Sky II.

Sky - flying and plains creatures. Elephants, lions, griffons, hyenas.
Mountain - trolls, grizzly\mountain bear, eagles, snow leopard, yeti
Leaves - wolfs, tigers, bears, gorillas, lynx.

It really depends which ones are already done. I've heard new RifE have lots of new animals and many will be useful here. I don't think doing new ones just for this spell is worth the trouble.

 

[Opera]

Right. It have to be rather early to be useful, a level II (at KotE) seems ok. And if 10% turns out too low or too high, you can always change it in later patch.

Right

Hmm... what about a spell that adds "-1 terrain movement cost'' to units in stack ? Or maybe something like '+1 movement cost to enemies in range'' ?
And about Eyes IV - I wonder if 'stealing' enemy's map fits here ? It's possible to do with ratcatcher, so should be possible to do via spell, but don't know if it's fun and useful enough for IV level spell.

I don't really like those

Sky - flying and plains creatures. Elephants, lions, griffons, hyenas.

Sounds right.

Mountain - trolls, grizzly\mountain bear, eagles, snow leopard, yeti

Four last aren't in I think. Maybe we need more mountain animals?

Leaves - wolfs, tigers, bears, gorillas, lynx.

Nice ones too.

It really depends which ones are already done. I've heard new RifE have lots of new animals and many will be useful here. I don't think doing new ones just for this spell is worth the trouble.

I'm planning on adding some of their animals anyway

As a note: I may take a break from modding, hopefully not too long... Personal reasons.