Nice immortal start and lesson in axe rush needed

[Alamankarazieff]

So, here I am, my second try at an immortal game. I won the first one since I randomly picked Huayna Capac (and I even refrained from a quechua rush, just some asymetric workforce redistribution, aka worker steal.)
New try at it, I get Mehmet and that insane start : 2 golds and 3 clams for the capital. Turns out, there is copper in the BFC.
We also have an freakishly close neighbour in the person of Zara Yacob, and I mean close to the point where I can tell if he had beans for lunch.

Obviously, it screamed axe rush, especially since our ethiopian friend tend to expand like ivy on steroids. Here I went, whipped, chopped, attacked ... and got crushed by a living wall of archers. We did fight in the shade and died gloriously (but died nonetheless.)

My rule now is not to reload, just whip myself with freshly cut nettles and start a new game. But this start was a bit too good to let go, so I reloaded, waited for construction (which came quickly with so much commerce) and then axapulted him to the other world. I'm now well on my way to winning this game, but I would LOVE to see a good player show me how to perform a proper axe rush.
I know the top players would probably win this game just by looking hard enough at it.
And for players gunning for HoF, this is a really nice start.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

I've just come back from a 2 year break and used to go ok at the Immortal University. Not really a top player but I'll give it a go.

 

[Mylene]

Cannot load the save cos of Buffy, but..
if your capital is as strong as you describe, there is no "proper axe rush".

That's pretty much it, the lesson
Axes are weak rushers, and you sell yourself to the RNG on immortal.
Esp. vs. a creative civ like Zara.

 

[ben-jammin]

The axe rush itself couldn't be more straightforward. You ignore everything that doesnt involve building axemen once you have bronzeworking and your resource hooked up. Then you attack as soon as you have enough axes to win even with some unlucky combat results.

The tricky part is recovering well enough afterward that the strategy was worthwhile. Ignoring everything but building axes is usually not worth the cities you take on immortal. If they're super close and not protective, it might be worth it. With Zara being creative it better be a super quick rush or the cultural defense will hurt a lot.

 

[m00n]

Well I failed. He get one Grassland city on the horse that I took, but the rest is hills and he has 4 Archers by turn 6.They where fortified and had 25% bonus defense. Is that normal for Immortal or is this a cooked up map? By the time I get 6 Axeman he has 5 Archers in his second city (hill) four, in the Capital (hill) and three in the 4th one (hill) loosing two Axes on the Horse side, I didn't make it one the 4th city. I'd say I lost from there.

Maybe my capital setup was not right. I got two work boats and grew to 4 pop to work the goldmines and the copper. As a result I had only one worker. Maybe beeline more? And more focus on chopping?

Recovering would be the easy part. By working the gold mines + city raiding gold you're probably tech leader by the time the war is over. Also Zaras cities are so close that you don't pay more maintanace than you would with a peachfull rex.

Cannot load the save cos of Buffy, but..
if your capital is as strong as you describe, there is no "proper axe rush".

That's pretty much it, the lesson
Axes are weak rushers, and you sell yourself to the RNG on immortal.
Esp. vs. a creative civ like Zara.

The capital is stron but if you don't rush out zara or Ragnar you are lucky to get three cities settled. Even with Zara out you will only get like 6 or 7. You would probably have to kick ragnar with elephants or something to be in a good position.

Edit: On another try I build two workers and chopped. I took his second city with just one Archer in it but I couldn't take the capital
Man this map is no a bit on the tough side. He doesn't leave his capital to protect or attack anything. I did win one time but there's a reload in that (for bad decision making not bad combat luck) and it's the 3rd try already.

 

[Mylene]

The capital is stron but if you don't rush out zara or Ragnar you are lucky to get three cities settled. Even with Zara out you will only get like 6 or 7.

And? I use 3 or even just 2 cities only all the time before breaking out with horse archers, catapults etc.
With 2 gold mines in your bfc you have a lot of options, just need to pick which units you want to use.

 

[Htadus]

Nice start indeed. I am only an emperor player adn do not whip...often.

Spoiler :

I was able to do a good rush on Itheopia and took two cites from Ragnar. Basically build axes after connecting copper. No rax. See attached save and autolog.

I do not have time to finish this but I intend to take Nidaros with a stack of Axe, sword and cats.

Then I continued toward 500AD but ran out of time. Ragnar Dow with a spear next to several axes.

 

[m00n]

And? I use 3 or even just 2 cities only all the time before breaking out with horse archers, catapults etc.
With 2 gold mines in your bfc you have a lot of options, just need to pick which units you want to use.

Well the point was the OP wanted to see an axerush done on this. From that opening post you can read that the catapult horse archer war has been done already. He/She knows the Axe rush is a bit more tidious but that was not the point.

 

[Benginal]

Alaman! I think Mylene hit the nail on the head.

With two gold in the capital wait until Construction. If you want to do a super fast rush you can probably self-tech maths and then Oracle Construction although it might not even be worth it.

If you do want to axe rush it's best to do it in two goes. Take 10 axes and go straight for the capital leaving everything else. Then take out the capital and maybe Zara's second city. This will leave him wounded. Take a ceasefire while you whip another three or four axes and let your old axes recuperate then DoW again and finish him off.

But as Mylene said, don't do it. In this case wait for axes and cats and then take both Zara and Ragnar in one fell swoop!

 

[vicawoo]

You don't need much commerce to axe rush, so the gold doesn't help much (and give below average eproduction). Clams are counterproductive, since you have to waste hammers on boats to get food. Copper in base is pretty strong if you hit really fast, so you have a mixed bag.

Axe rushes aren't good if you have poor micromanagement and make lots of little inefficient decisions, since it's highly timing based.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

You probably need 2 axes per archer, so make sure you have enough to take the first city immediately.

My guess is you didn't attack with enough axes to start with. If the enemy has 2 archers in a city, attack with 4-5 axes.

Once you attack beware that the AI goes into unit spam so make sure you get something good with that first strike.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Thanks for the answers.
I also came to the conclusion that waiting for construction was safer. But my real question was wanting to know if an axe rush was a) doable and b) profitable.
Apparently, it's yes to a) and a mixed bag for b.
In my game, I was lucky enough to have Ragnar and Zara hate each other's guts to the point that they were in full war mode when I shamelessly backstabbed my good friend Zara (for the AI don't know that the human player can declare at "friendly.")
But if they had gotten along, I was seriously land choked, and not sure I could have handled a two front war.
So, it seems that the axe rush is more uncertain (mOOn failed like I did on my first try) militarily, but possible, and nets you some land and expansion. Waiting for construction gives you a much more probable military victory, but runs the risk of being squeezed out of a group hug.

When I tried the axe rush, I came with 10 axes, but met 5 archers, on a hill, at 50% culture (he had founded buddhism). The result was ugly.

Is there a definite lesson at immortal level here ? Forget the axe rush, beeline better techs ? Or bring in more troops faster ?

 

[AbsoluteZero]

You needed about 15 axes in that case. Hills and high culture change the ratio of 2 axes per 1 archer.

If I saw 5 hilled archers with 50% defense I would simply pick another town.

 

[Abegweit]

An axe rush is certainly doable at Immortal but a Creative civ with a Holy City capital on a hill is not exactly the ideal target. This is further complicated by the distance to the capital. On top of that, the map is wrong since Zara places blocking cities between you and him. For an axe rush to succeed at this level, you need to go straight for the capital and then pick off the other cities afterwards. But you can't.

On top of that, the gold argues that you should be able to get a tech edge and take him that way. Vicawoo's point is important too. The need for workboats slows you down. If you had a pig instead of three clams, it might be different.

 

[vicawoo]

I don't use BUFFY, so I can't help directly. But you need to micro better so you can attack sooner, and get writing fast so you can detect when he moves his archers out. It's still doable, but against a hill with extra culture, it's not winnable 100% of the time and you may have to resort to some trickery (sack some warriors/workers)

And use combat 1 instead of CR1 when the bonus is over 120% to soften the archers up, it will help slightly.

And by 50% you probably mean 60%.

 

[ben-jammin]

Thanks for the answers.
I also came to the conclusion that waiting for construction was safer. But my real question was wanting to know if an axe rush was a) doable and b) profitable.
Apparently, it's yes to a) and a mixed bag for b.
In my game, I was lucky enough to have Ragnar and Zara hate each other's guts to the point that they were in full war mode when I shamelessly backstabbed my good friend Zara (for the AI don't know that the human player can declare at "friendly.")
But if they had gotten along, I was seriously land choked, and not sure I could have handled a two front war.
So, it seems that the axe rush is more uncertain (mOOn failed like I did on my first try) militarily, but possible, and nets you some land and expansion. Waiting for construction gives you a much more probable military victory, but runs the risk of being squeezed out of a group hug.

When I tried the axe rush, I came with 10 axes, but met 5 archers, on a hill, at 50% culture (he had founded buddhism). The result was ugly.

Is there a definite lesson at immortal level here ? Forget the axe rush, beeline better techs ? Or bring in more troops faster ?

Like AZ said, pick another city. Go right past it and block/pillage roads. Pillage whatever mines and food improvements on the way as well. Did you not scout his land at all? It's pretty important to make your first strike count, as soon as you declare war the target starts whipping archers, and sometimes walls as well.

 

[Htadus]

Thanks for the answers.
I also came to the conclusion that waiting for construction was safer. But my real question was wanting to know if an axe rush was a) doable and b) profitable.
Apparently, it's yes to a) and a mixed bag for b.
In my game, I was lucky enough to have Ragnar and Zara hate each other's guts to the point that they were in full war mode when I shamelessly backstabbed my good friend Zara (for the AI don't know that the human player can declare at "friendly.")
But if they had gotten along, I was seriously land choked, and not sure I could have handled a two front war.
So, it seems that the axe rush is more uncertain (mOOn failed like I did on my first try) militarily, but possible, and nets you some land and expansion. Waiting for construction gives you a much more probable military victory, but runs the risk of being squeezed out of a group hug.

When I tried the axe rush, I came with 10 axes, but met 5 archers, on a hill, at 50% culture (he had founded buddhism). The result was ugly.

Is there a definite lesson at immortal level here ? Forget the axe rush, beeline better techs ? Or bring in more troops faster ?

Timing and having an idea of the AI was very helpful in my game. I knew Zara was going to be building about 4 cities before going into unit spam from my previous games.

I teched fishing, Mining and BW; this is a common tech route for me with seafood in BFC. Built a worker, WB, WB, WB to let copper get connected and then 7 axes. Worker did some roads untill mining came online and then 3 mines, 2-3 chops and roads.

As you can see I was not in any rush to rush Zara due to the fact that I wanted to attack Ragnar first and take his two cities first. My first warrior has been watching Ragnar's capital and second Gem (Iron later) city.

Spoiler :

Zara
But as my 5 axes were on their way to Nidaros, they found Zara's Religious city defended by 1 archer and my second warrior was next to a worker just completed the horse pasture for Zara. Could not let him spam chariots right? So my warrior captured the worker that turn and My 5 axes captured the Religous city for single loss. Then 3 survivors went to his horse city. It was defended by 2 archers my 3 axes were tile away and another axe was about to join them. So I baited Zara by placing the warrior on the forest. He attached and killed my warrior. An axe killed the nearly dead archer and on the next turn captured that city.

By this time more axes were chopped and about 7-8 axes converged on Zara's capital. But it was defended by too 5 or 6 archers. So I kept on moving units around the capital, waiting for him to do a classic AI blunders while capturing his workers that he placed next to my axes building roads . And he did, with my units being spread around, he built a settler and sent them out with 2 archers and I had about 8 axes. I moved my units in and he moved his settler into the city but his archers could not get into the city; no roads. Next turn he was out of the game. Turn 64/500 (1440 BC). 5 turns before I learned Alphabet. By now I am building libraries in anticipation of reduce science slider and to run scientists. Also by 375 BC Istanbul finishes The Great Lighthouse What can i say I am a builder.

Ragnar
Then the survivors healed and attacked ragnars Gem city and a new one claiming many Dye. Then got peace for only 3 techs he had in Turn 86/500 (725 BC). The land was so good and there should be no reason to not rush in this game. 2 Gold goes a long ways.

Of course he did DoW me in 50BC with a spear while I had many axes, spears and chariots around. At my stopping point he has 2 good cities, which I will take and a crappy one which I will let him have for HA. I want him to barb

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You needed about 15 axes in that case. Hills and high culture change the ratio of 2 axes per 1 archer.

If I saw 5 hilled archers with 50% defense I would simply pick another town.

Or move towards the other town, and then kill some of those archers in the open when they try to shift garrison.

 

[Higher Game]

A real man's axe/catapult war involves lightbulbing math, oracle --> construction, and slicing as many 30 hammer forests as possible before sending in the doom stack.

The math bulb can easily be worth 100+ extra hammers depending on forests, and it gets you to construction at least 15-20 turns earlier. That's decisive. (and, though it's just personal bad micro, I find it much easier to 2 pop whip catapults than axes )

An ancient era, 20 hammer chop pure axe rush just doesn't carry the same weight on immortal.