NiGHTS: General Discussion

[markusbeutel]

Update on V8.

The bad news is it's taking a little longer than anticipated to get the mod in working order after my modbuddy crash. Basically the order of some of some xml files have been messed up so I'm in the process of sifting through and correcting them. It's not a difficult fix, just a tedious one.

The good news is this this will give me time to add in a Tax policy of sorts that hearkens back to the initial versions of NiGHTS and New Social Policies. "TAX" will be a separate policy to itself that will be endlessly re-clickable, (after you gain enough culture to adopt a policy), and offer a permanent tax break on building maintenance to alleviate late-game economy problems. This should help the AI as well who also sometimes struggle with their late-game economies. The Tax break itself will probably end up being something like a recurring 5% discount that also costs you a certain amount of Stability points. I may implement something similar to act as a Science/Gold re-clickable policy (that boosts one by 5% and reduces the other by 5% and vice versa) time permitting - this would be a minor attempt on my part to bring back the economy sliders from civ4 only on a policy level. It also wouldn't cost you culture points to adopt but would be available to adjust at any time.

Estimated release is now Friday evening, as it's looking like I'll have that day off from work.

 

[flymar]

I don't like the "sliders" idea, I kind of like the civ5 approach to specialize the civ by the buildings built... and you have the specialists. (I don't know if the current NIGHTS specialist's slots are producing 'pure' resources).
I think the whole policies stuff should be all about progress, without canceling and reverting. You've made a bad choice. Too bad, think again next time.
I'm not sure about maintenance lift branch. I try to match it to real life policies and it doesn't fit. Modern infrastructure uses more power/resources and stuff so it basically costs more to maintain. Thinking that way it seems that some late technologies could reduce maintenance - clean power sources, intelligent buildings and similar. (I do miss all the pro publico bono activity in late game. Now it's still units spamming. I don't mind that in games such as Total War but Civ should be something more)
Of course that's just my opinion and your ideas may work great when implemented

 

[Balerune]

...
I think the whole policies stuff should be all about progress, without canceling and reverting. You've made a bad choice. Too bad, think again next time. ...

I found that sentence of yours intriguing. I personally don't see governmental systems along a time line of "progress." Take the US; its current post constitutional system I could not call "progress" since it has fallen sway to passions that purer democratic systems exhibit. The republican democratic constitutional idea was much better and held the popular passions in check; unless you envision some futuristic idealist type of end government? (just my 2 cents.)

Also his work is one in progress and I don't know how he will balance things in the future.

 

[flymar]

Yes. I was rather describing how I feel policies as a 'game mechanism' based on progress and by progress I didn't mean better, just newer, something you can't cancel.
But how would work the government system reflecting the real life? I think the above mentioned "dimensions" branches idea like human rights, ownership, monetary policy, foreign affairs, military and similar. Could you revert to former used policy? Well, it happened in the history so that should be possible. Another thing - shouldn't some policies trigger automatically? Enough unrest, low treasury and lack o garrisoned units would change "tyranny" to something else Oh well. This is complicated beyond my language possibilities. I believe in markus and his moding skills

 

[markusbeutel]

Lots of changes coming for governments. Overall I think the new system is going to be much deeper and more immersive, with policies themselves feeling less like WoW bonuses and more like strategic empire decisions. Still re-writing tool-tips, testing, and tweaking the UI - it will be either a late night release, (PST), or early morning release for the 26th.

It'll be released as V7.5 and only initially available on Civfanatics so I can get some proper feedback before releasing it to the Hub.

 

[Oohforf]

Lots of changes coming for governments. Overall I think the new system is going to be much deeper and more immersive, with policies themselves feeling less like WoW bonuses and more like strategic empire decisions. Still re-writing tool-tips, testing, and tweaking the UI - it will be either a late night release, (PST), or early morning release for the 26th.

It'll be released as V7.5 and only initially available on Civfanatics so I can get some proper feedback before releasing it to the Hub.

ROFL WoW bonuses xD

This sounds naisee. Any new screenshots that we can sink our teeth into?

 

[markusbeutel]

ROFL WoW bonuses xD

This sounds naisee. Any new screenshots that we can sink our teeth into?

I'm now using a screen-grab from the opening video to hide the policy icons. I've tried to make the visuals directly underneath the district titles correspond with the individual titles themselves. There's some more bells and whistles underneath - but this is probably around 75% finished. Everytime I think I'm finished with UI stuff I'll find out a new way to do something more efficiently, so this may just be the beginning of tweaking UI throughout the game so things are more accessible.

 

[black213]

Is there a reason why I'm not seeing the new AI behaviour modifiers such as +1 for having good trading relationship?

So are these back yet? I absolutely loved this system, and I hope if you could make a stand-alone version of it.

 

[markusbeutel]

So are these back yet? I absolutely loved this system, and I hope if you could make a stand-alone version of it.

The latest patch caused issues with the numbers for diplomacy so I've been working on that on the side in between updates. In coming updates I'll document the numbers that firaxis has set for diplomacy weights and modifiers. They're pretty much all negative modifiers and may seem ridiculous at first, but they'll be accurate. This wont make it into V7.5/8 which I'll be releasing later today. But there's a good chance they'll be back in for V9 which will probably be released in a week or so.

V 7.5/8 is going to focus on a new government system and UI - and once I get feedback on this and fix any bugs, I'll get started on bringing back number diplomacy.

I will also release a standalone version of it alongside V9 that will be fully compatible with all other mods.

 

[markusbeutel]

So V7.5/8 is taking a little longer than anticipated. It will be released sometime today, (Saturday), but probably later in the afternoon/evening. Here's some of the changes that it's going to incorporate.

• A new UI as shown in screenshots in previous posts. There are now 7 Policy Branches and each Branch will have 22 total policies.
• Each Government consists of 6 ruling policies that will focus on your economy, military, science, food, wealth, and production.
• 13 of the policies are each dedicated to a specific building available during the time that that specific Government is first adoptable. The policies for these buildings will adjust the Stability, Culture, and Yields of these buildings. Each building policy is connected to a District that is connected to one of the 7 Governments.
• The final 3 policies will upgrade Vanilla improvements as in early versions of NiGHTS.
• Each Building Policy will have a Maintenance cost ranging from 2-10% for later policies.
• One of the 6 main Government policies is the Economic Policy, and this will implement a tax rate that offsets the cost of building maintenance accrued by adopting Building Policies.
• There is no large lump sum Stability or Maintenance cost for adopting a new Government. Instead, for each of the 7 Governments you adopt, you will be hit with a 0.5 Unrest cost per City. This will go up to a max of 4 Unrest for adopting every single Government Type, (the same amount as in Vanilla Civ V), but it can be easily avoided by not trying to adopt every single Government type.
• There is an escalating Unrest cost for adopting the individual 6 ruling policies of the Government Types. This will be 1 for each of the 6 Despotism ruling policies, 2 for each of the Feudalism ruling policies -- and all the way up to 7 for each of the Technocracy ruling policies. These Unrest costs CANCEL out previous Unrest costs. Adopting a 2 Unrest Economic Policy after already adopting a 1 Unrest Economic Policy will cause an overall Unrest cost of 2, and not 3.
• You only need to complete 1 Government Branch to build Utopia. This might be changed to 2 depending on feedback.
• The 6 main Government Policies disable each other based on rank. IE the Economic Policy of Monarchy would disable the Economic Policy of Despotism AND Feudalism.
• The Building Policies are divided into semi-realistic districts. For instance, under the Theocracy Government Type, you will find buildings such as monuments, temples, cathedrals, etc, in the corresponding Temple District.

EDIT: Starting traits/bonuses are also getting changed again. Palace statistics will represent the main differences for which Civ you start with. An additional starting bonus will now consist of a unique promotion that will be attached to every unit built in your Capital. This should make the AI slightly more engaging as a military foe, because currently, they need all the help they can get.

There are also minor changes involving the rearranging of specialists, moving infantry so they're connected to gunpowder/rifling, and general tool-tip fixes.

 

[Oohforf]

This is soo cool

Your making it increasingly difficult for me to make up my mind on which social policy to choose >_>.

 

[dragonmage119]

How do you like these icons so far?
Sorry for taking so long with these i think my teachers realized that i signed up to help and gave more homework in order to prevent me from it.
Edit: Oh and i still have em in psd with all th layer if it needs editing.

 

[markusbeutel]

How do you like these icons so far?
Sorry for taking so long with these i think my teachers realized that i signed up to help and gave more homework in order to prevent me from it.
Edit: Oh and i still have em in psd with all th layer if it needs editing.

Nice job These are looking really good. I'll have the next next update finished sometime today so you'll be able to see all the other icons that are needed.

 

[ComradeKristov]

Did you give Mongolia's capitol some culture? I noticed that it had one of the worst play abilities based solely on that factor. Oh, I though I would ask you about one thing, I played my last game on deity and I only built 3 cities! I used the AI to populate my empire with puppets by constant warring. The AI is almost completely hopeless when it comes to going to war. I be-line for cannons and I've won the game! It is ridiculous how they will just have their army march up to mine and sit there and not attack while my siege destroys them. I know it's not your fault they are so bad at warmongering but is there anything you could do to help them out, I remember in Thals balance mod every time I took a city they go a free unit, maybe you could look into that. Oh and I've had the AI declare war on me when all it had was one warrior!!! I built 5 warriors and took his cities one at a time other than his capitol. Maybe you could bring back unrest for warriors?

 

[markusbeutel]

Did you give Mongolia's capitol some culture? I noticed that it had one of the worst play abilities based solely on that factor. Oh, I though I would ask you about one thing, I played my last game on deity and I only built 3 cities! I used the AI to populate my empire with puppets by constant warring. The AI is almost completely hopeless when it comes to going to war. I be-line for cannons and I've won the game! It is ridiculous how they will just have their army march up to mine and sit there and not attack while my siege destroys them. I know it's not your fault they are so bad at warmongering but is there anything you could do to help them out, I remember in Thals balance mod every time I took a city they go a free unit, maybe you could look into that. Oh and I've had the AI declare war on me when all it had was one warrior!!! I built 5 warriors and took his cities one at a time other than his capitol. Maybe you could bring back unrest for warriors?

Mongolia's capital will start with a base of 1 gold instead of 0 in the next update. As far as the AI is concerned - I realize they are fairly hopeless when it comes to warmongering. I won't go so far as to give them free units - but I am implementing a change where Civ's start the game with a military promotion that will only be available for military units built in the capital. Warriors are also going to have an Unrest rating of 1 again. There is also going to be a new city maintenance mechanic where the Unrest cost of each new and existing city you have/build, will be increased by 1 for every new Government type that you adopt. Despotism doesn't count and you start the game with each city producing 0 Unrest, (well, 1 really, but the citizen in your first city offsets this). This should reign in out of control Stability to an extent. Military Units are also getting a slight 15-20% increase in Unrest costs - mostly directed at ancient-renaissance units.

The new Government system should hopefully balance out unrest/stability more efficiently - especially after feedback.

If the AI is still terrible in regards to warring after this update - I'll look at Thal's idea and start working on ways to make their military more efficient.

 

[ZiRo]

I've almost finished a game with this mod now.

The AI seems to build citys on every available bit of land. Even 1x1 islands.
The AI ends up with a massive gold defecit, I guess because they buy all the over priced buildings?
The AI ends up unhappy.

I had a Siamese elephant problem at the beginning of the game, I beat them back and their economy fell apart and I mopped them up quite easily.

Britain had a big army going on, that I marginalised with a modern and effective navy. Nothing your mod has done wrong really, just contrasting an effective AI experience.

Egypt expanded the most, had the most cities, had done the most war mongering, marching their way to Berlin.

I went straight for their capital, expecting a huge army to come back from Germany to stomp me but all I had were a trickle of older units, AA and planes.

My economy isn't in good shape, I can't afford to buy any buildings - they're very expensive for little return in most cases. I tended to stick to the ones that generate gold or increase gold yield by percent. Also, things like Lighthouse in highly-watered cities, Windmill because it's cheap maintenence for good return.

Also, I might be being stupid but I never saw anything to do with Palaces as the loading screen suggested?

 

[markusbeutel]

I've almost finished a game with this mod now.

The AI seems to build citys on every available bit of land. Even 1x1 islands.
The AI ends up with a massive gold defecit, I guess because they buy all the over priced buildings?
The AI ends up unhappy.

I had a Siamese elephant problem at the beginning of the game, I beat them back and their economy fell apart and I mopped them up quite easily.

Britain had a big army going on, that I marginalised with a modern and effective navy. Nothing your mod has done wrong really, just contrasting an effective AI experience.

Egypt expanded the most, had the most cities, had done the most war mongering, marching their way to Berlin.

I went straight for their capital, expecting a huge army to come back from Germany to stomp me but all I had were a trickle of older units, AA and planes.

My economy isn't in good shape, I can't afford to buy any buildings - they're very expensive for little return in most cases. I tended to stick to the ones that generate gold or increase gold yield by percent. Also, things like Lighthouse in highly-watered cities, Windmill because it's cheap maintenence for good return.

Also, I might be being stupid but I never saw anything to do with Palaces as the loading screen suggested?

The next update (couple hours away now), will change up a lot of things. The AI shouldn't have as much trouble with money as maintenance costs are going to be much more staggered. The same goes for Stability and Unrest. I'm okay with the AI building everywhere - this shouldn't be any different than Vanilla Civ 5 except that the city-spacing limit is 2 and not 3. I'd rather have the AI expand poorly, than not at all.

The palace's are unique to each Civ. If you check the palace icon in your capital, it's different for every Civ and provides different bonuses.

 

[markusbeutel]

Version 7.5 released to CivFanatics/Downloads/Modpacks. Will release 8.0 to the Mod Hub tomorrow after I get some initial feedback on 7.5.

dragonmage119 - the icons look great. If you download 7.5 you'll see all of the other policies. Individual icons are probaby only needed for the buildings/improvements. This will make more sense once you see them, but for the 6 different versions of the ruling policies, (economic/foreign/military/health/education/building), I'd be fine with the same icon used for each individual ruling policy. Like there would be just 1 economic policy icon for all 6 economic policies, etc.

 

[Oohforf]

Version 7.5 released to CivFanatics. Will release 8.0 to the Mod Hub tomorrow after I get some initial feedback on 7.5.

dragonmage119 - the icons look great. If you download 7.5 you'll see all of the other policies. Individual icons are probaby only needed for the buildings/improvements. This will make more sense once you see them, but for the 6 different versions of the ruling policies, (economic/foreign/military/health/education/building), I'd be fine with the same icon used for each individual ruling policy. Like there would be just 1 economic policy icon for all 6 economic policies, etc.

Great! Testing it out now ^^

What type of feedback are you looking for?

 

[markusbeutel]

Great! Testing it out now ^^

What type of feedback are you looking for?

Mainly how the AI is doing with Gold and Stability. In previous versions they struggled with both - they should be at least moderately better now. Also just thought on the new Governments - what feels overpowered - and would it be better to have 2 completed government types unlock Utopia if culture comes too quickly now.