NiGHTS: General Discussion

[markusbeutel]

I did it!!! I won on Emperor After (more than) a couple of false starts (i.e., I was getting my butt kicked early on) I finally got a good start & was able to build up fairly well and finally win!

I was America as usual, standard small continents, standard time, emperor difficulty, V10.3a. Was #2 in total points nearly the whole game, #2-3 in production, but lagging only 2-3 techs behind Egypt (the overall & tech leader). But darned that Egypt: Leading by only 2-3 techs, he managed to beat me to nearly every wonder in the book! I think I managed to get Stonehenge & GL, and managed to rush-build PT, but don't remember getting anything else. Got beat out with 1-3 turns remaining several times. I seem to remember there is a steam achievement if you lose 10 wonders like this -- I qualify from this one game alone.

So, anyway, once Egypt popped the Apollo Project before the relevant tech was even on my scope, I knew that a science win was out of the question. Then -- kinda out of the blue -- two or three of my RAs popped at the same time & I found that I could finish Globalization in 3 turns. So, OK, let's finish Globalization, build the Statue of Liberty in New York & build the U.N. in Washington & get a diplo win.

Darned Egypt!! So, OK, I can't build either the Statue of Liberty or the U.N., but I can burn my two GGs & save up a massive amount of money. So, of course, when the U.N. vote countdown reached 5 then Egypt started buying my CS allies. So I quickly bought the two back, then bought all of Egypt's CS allies + a couple of England's too, just for good measure, 'til I had 14 votes out of the 10 required for a win; then I declared war on both Egypt & England. Egypt managed to conquer one of its former CS allies, but I still won with 13 votes.

Impressive.

I still think that cities should be weaker. Your military is your defense, not a city that shoots arrows from another dimension. I understand that cities should defend themselves but I seriously should not be expected to surround an entire city with units just to barely take it.

heres an example, I beat England and now I am at their capital. I have 3 caravels, 2 archers, and 2 landscheknt(or however you spell them) and its SUICIDE to attack, my caravels and archers hit for 5 for 1 turn, then the town heals up 5! My land units get decimated trying to attack it!

Maybe if the damn town didnt heal so much back I would have a chance

I pillaged everything and its taking an awful long time to dwindle their population.

Update: I had to tech to Frigates to take London. I did 6 damage to the town while it healed 5. So it was a grueling process of waiting until my land units can finish it off. Defiinitely think about this. Also during this process population didnt even go down 1.

There's probably going to be a few new gameplay additions to v10.5 next week that will have an impact on taking Cities, so I am looking at this.

I was wondering is there any way to bring back the ability to regenerate the map after you have started? It's annoying when I start an immortal game and set everything up only to have to restart because I have a tundra start. IDK if you could do it now or would you need access to the core files? When do you think that they will be available to the modding community?

Ditto on regenerate map.

.dll access is probably required for something like this - or else you'd think that something along the lines of a regenerate option would have materialized already. Firaxis has been quiet on releasing any additional news about when we might get access since they first announced their intent on releasing the.dll 2.5 months ago...

 

[GT Ranma]

Hmm, ok, so I played a game on Standard Prince, and beat it easy... But I have yet been able to win a game on even Settler with Large or Huge maps... It seems once I get over 5 or 6 opponents it becomes impossible for me to win ; ;

 

[markusbeutel]

Hmm, ok, so I played a game on Standard Prince, and beat it easy... But I have yet been able to win a game on even Settler with Large or Huge maps... It seems once I get over 5 or 6 opponents it becomes impossible for me to win ; ;

IMHO, the larger the map, the more difficult it is to win - and that goes for non-modded games as well. Whereas a 5-6 City empire can get you a win on standard maps, a 5-6 City empire on large/huge maps is minuscule, and you'll have to spend much more time on expansion to match the AI's efforts. Huge/large maps really require an entirely different strategy than </= Standard sized maps, (where boxing out the AI can be a dominant strategy).

 

[retarded_archer]

I would tweak how much cities heal per turn. They can be strong but what really kicks you in the ass is the healing. Thats all you'd really need to change.

Thanks for being so open minded to community suggestions!

 

[markusbeutel]

I would tweak how much cities heal per turn. They can be strong but what really kicks you in the ass is the healing. Thats all you'd really need to change.

Thanks for being so open minded to community suggestions!

No problem - I'll look into it.

Personally I haven't had problems with city healing. It shouldn't be easy to take a capital. Turns 100-200 most cities have defenses in the teens. Those are rather easy to take with swords, archers and catapults.

The governments are better. They don't feel so random and pointless. The happiness bonuses really help.

If buildings have an Inn or Bathhouse, then garrisoned units will heal a lot faster - so that could be happening as well.

Agreed about the Governments - they were sort of redundant when there were so many of them being unlocked through policies. Unlocking through Techs with added local/global benefits feels more natural IMO.

 

[Callias]

Personally I haven't had problems with city healing. It shouldn't be easy to take a capital. Turns 100-200 most cities have defenses in the teens. Those are rather easy to take with swords, archers and catapults.

The governments are better. They don't feel so random and pointless. The happiness bonuses really help.

I agree with not messing with city defenses. I find them just right all the way up until I've got artillery and bombers (and the AI just has cannons or even artillery) - that's the point at which, IMHO, it's too easy.

Big cities, capitals or not, should be difficult to take.

 

[Synthome]

Hi Markus,

first of, great mod. Im playing it in combination with the perfect world map skript, and it just rocks!
I have a problem though since 10.4. Dont know if it is a bug, but it doesnt look right. India had a cultural revolution in it's city "Akra" i think. This city was taken by the roman empire, during that revolution and they burned it down. Now the small revolution status window in the upper ui looks somewhat garbled, as if multiple textures where overlapping. When i hover on it, it says that there is 1 turn left till any active goverment resolves. But that never happens. Could it be that India is somehow "locked" in that revolution, because the city in which it initiated is destroyed?

Btw: Im from germany, so if you need more information or my english is just too bad, maybe i could explain it better in german

 

[retarded_archer]

Big cities, capitals or not, should be difficult to take.

You should have to invest a lot of resources in taking it, not be actually impossible. Look at my picture, its impossible to take that town.

Literally, impossible.

 

[retarded_archer]

Because the terrain was difficult. I'd expect that city to be tough. That same city on flatland would be child's play to assualt. You just spam out more archers and more landsnekt. Don't be afraid to lose guys. Taking a city quickly is far more important than saving individual units (notable exceptions exist). You really ought to have about 6 landsnekt and about 6 archers. I see several spots for archers to shoot from, 4 spots for ships to shoot from, and you have 3 land tiles for melee units to attack from. Another thing against you is your army looks outdated and you don't have iron. So you have no real siege.

I wouldnt be afraid to lose guys if the case was that the town didnt heal 80% of my damage if I had the perfect setup you described. It would take a lot of turns and a lot of men to replace the dead ones attacking the town just to push back how much it heals every turn.

Also my army was not outdated compared to the rest of the world and especially england

 

[endymon]

I'm thinking city regen should have two modes. Under attack, and not under attack.

If the city is actively being assaulted each turn (or bombarded) then its regen is maybe 2. Otherwise it regen is much higher (5 say). To keep things balanced, perhaps city hp should increase. Whats it at.... 20 right now? Have it go up by 10 each 10 population.


On another note, I had some weird stuff toward the end of my game. My submarine was attacked and sunk by a city and frigate. I don't know how they spotted it.... or how either of those are physically cabable of damaging a sub.
Also I noticed archers seem to still be able to dmg high tier units, like destroyers or infantry.... how? Their ranged strength is 8..... how can they do anything to a strength 45 thing?

 

[markusbeutel]

Hi Markus,

first of, great mod. Im playing it in combination with the perfect world map skript, and it just rocks!
I have a problem though since 10.4. Dont know if it is a bug, but it doesnt look right. India had a cultural revolution in it's city "Akra" i think. This city was taken by the roman empire, during that revolution and they burned it down. Now the small revolution status window in the upper ui looks somewhat garbled, as if multiple textures where overlapping. When i hover on it, it says that there is 1 turn left till any active goverment resolves. But that never happens. Could it be that India is somehow "locked" in that revolution, because the city in which it initiated is destroyed?

Btw: Im from germany, so if you need more information or my english is just too bad, maybe i could explain it better in german

Glad to hear you're enjoying it. This is actually the second time this particular bug has come up so I'll look into it with Moaf. It seems like a rare occurrence at the very least and we haven't yet identified the problem.

I'm thinking city regen should have two modes. Under attack, and not under attack.

If the city is actively being assaulted each turn (or bombarded) then its regen is maybe 2. Otherwise it regen is much higher (5 say). To keep things balanced, perhaps city hp should increase. Whats it at.... 20 right now? Have it go up by 10 each 10 population.


On another note, I had some weird stuff toward the end of my game. My submarine was attacked and sunk by a city and frigate. I don't know how they spotted it.... or how either of those are physically cabable of damaging a sub.
Also I noticed archers seem to still be able to dmg high tier units, like destroyers or infantry.... how? Their ranged strength is 8..... how can they do anything to a strength 45 thing?

Currently Cities gain +1 Strength per population, and I don't really want to get away from this, as it really helps the AI - and the AI needs all the help it can get tactically. In vanilla CIV V, I believe Cities gain 0.25 Strength per population - and if an AI decides to focus on culture, it's very possible to put off constructing defense buildings until it's too late.

The current mechanic puts the AI on a relatively even playing field regarding defenses until the later eras, when stronger units become available. This also helps limit the amount of runaway Civ's, (which still occur far too often), as aggressive AI's that pursue a domination victory early in vanilla CIV V can generally steamroll maps.

As for unit damage amounts, there's a minimum of 1 damage inflicted on defenders regardless of the strength of the attacking unit, (the same as in vanilla).

 

[wcbarney]

Hi Marcus - I have an off-topic question that I hope you don't get mad at me for asking. Over on the Civ 5 General Discussion sub-forum there is a relatively new thread: Formula behind getting cheaper techs when meeting civs. I was the first to answer and I said, basically, "no way, Jose, because is generated only by your own population, as modified upwards by science buildings & policies, etc." But the consensus, because of a pretty authoritative post by the recognized expert MadDjinn, is that the more other civs have a tech then the less beakers it takes for you to research that same tech. Since you are also a recognized expert, and one who knows how to read xml files & such, what is your authoritative answer to this question?

 

[markusbeutel]

Hi Marcus - I have an off-topic question that I hope you don't get mad at me for asking. Over on the Civ 5 General Discussion sub-forum there is a relatively new thread: Formula behind getting cheaper techs when meeting civs. I was the first to answer and I said, basically, "no way, Jose, because is generated only by your own population, as modified upwards by science buildings & policies, etc." But the consensus, because of a pretty authoritative post by the recognized expert MadDjinn, is that the more other civs have a tech then the less beakers it takes for you to research that same tech. Since you are also a recognized expert, and one who knows how to read xml files & such, what is your authoritative answer to this question?

I'll take a look at this when I get home from work later today. Invariably this is an easy thing to implement into the game, but it could also wreck havoc on gameplay as Civ's prioritize certain techs - and knowing what these techs are would allow you to choose a tech path that exploits this. (This would be especially true the more Civ's there are in your game). Having said that, the mechanic would work better in NiGHTS, (purely because there are more techs) - but without having read the article, it seems like you could "game" a system like this in vanilla CIV V.

 

[endymon]

Interesting, i didn't think such a mechanic was in Civ5.... I guess I don't need to look for a mod to do that effect then. Though, from whats in that thread, the effect could stand to be more pronounced. If the bonus of tech diffusion were increased substantially then the cost of all techs would have to be boosted further to compensate.

 

[Balerune]

Got a science victory 2001 t 421; England, immortal, sparse res., small continents. I tried also for a UN win but with 4 CS in hand 20k wasn't enough gold to buy the rest of them off.

It was a strange map with Persia well ahead but I had enough gold when they built the UN to swing a few CS to me from them because they had @ 90K gold and then stopped, more or less, working towards UN and went for conquest (which was the road they were on before they built the UN.)

 

[KaiserKevin]

Well, been playing this a while and enjoy the multitude of options. Few things I noticed:

Krepost doesn't give cover 1 promotion as barracks does, was this on purpose?
AI doesn't seem too good at expanding: always spams units and hits a low happiness; either doesn't build more cities or the barbs that get spawned for the unhappiness stops them ???
First I thought it was Archi, but last game played on lakes and AI didn't get more than 8 cities I think, hope this is just my experience.
For some reason when I met a city state I got a free tech or maybe a tech boost once in a while ???

Also was wondering if the 'synergies' work with unique buildings i.e. does the +4 culture/university policy work with Wats?

Will recent wonders (S.o.Zeus, Artemis, Mausoleum) be added eventually or no?

Timing for some wonder completions confuses me, Ishtar gate was built alongside and the Hanging Gardens around same time, yet I see it completed in like 1400-1500 BC Great Lighthouse, I don't understand why its so late, maybe I missed some balance issue, but considering the other bonuses the earlier buildings provide, why not switch docks and lighthouse or something?

Petra, Tower of Babel, Solomon's Temple and Parthenon all make me happy

I miss graveyard, liked idea of stone giving culture

The new image overhaul is appreciated, can tell difference between huge variety of building options for the most part. Cultural Revolutions make more sense and offer more/better options

Last issue I have is with Pagoda, seems nearly impossible to acquire a city with marble and gems/silver (thought it was) nearby and being anal about my city placements I've been fairly depressed about not maximizing culture output. Maybe make it so all luxury resources nearby gives a culture boost? Or maybe make not having mausoleum be a prereq

Sorry for unfocussed writing, was thinking a lot whilst playing, plan to do it some more.

 

[markusbeutel]

Got a science victory 2001 t 421; England, immortal, sparse res., small continents. I tried also for a UN win but with 4 CS in hand 20k wasn't enough gold to buy the rest of them off.

It was a strange map with Persia well ahead but I had enough gold when they built the UN to swing a few CS to me from them because they had @ 90K gold and then stopped, more or less, working towards UN and went for conquest (which was the road they were on before they built the UN.)

Nicely done. Although I'm not really a fan of how the AI picks it's victory conditions and then doesn't really adapt them all that much at the moment.

Well, been playing this a while and enjoy the multitude of options. Few things I noticed:

Krepost doesn't give cover 1 promotion as barracks does, was this on purpose?
AI doesn't seem too good at expanding: always spams units and hits a low happiness; either doesn't build more cities or the barbs that get spawned for the unhappiness stops them ???
First I thought it was Archi, but last game played on lakes and AI didn't get more than 8 cities I think, hope this is just my experience.
For some reason when I met a city state I got a free tech or maybe a tech boost once in a while ???

Also was wondering if the 'synergies' work with unique buildings i.e. does the +4 culture/university policy work with Wats?

Will recent wonders (S.o.Zeus, Artemis, Mausoleum) be added eventually or no?

Timing for some wonder completions confuses me, Ishtar gate was built alongside and the Hanging Gardens around same time, yet I see it completed in like 1400-1500 BC Great Lighthouse, I don't understand why its so late, maybe I missed some balance issue, but considering the other bonuses the earlier buildings provide, why not switch docks and lighthouse or something?

Petra, Tower of Babel, Solomon's Temple and Parthenon all make me happy

I miss graveyard, liked idea of stone giving culture

The new image overhaul is appreciated, can tell difference between huge variety of building options for the most part. Cultural Revolutions make more sense and offer more/better options

Last issue I have is with Pagoda, seems nearly impossible to acquire a city with marble and gems/silver (thought it was) nearby and being anal about my city placements I've been fairly depressed about not maximizing culture output. Maybe make it so all luxury resources nearby gives a culture boost? Or maybe make not having mausoleum be a prereq

Sorry for unfocussed writing, was thinking a lot whilst playing, plan to do it some more.

The trade-ff right now between Barracks and Kreposts is the culture/gold discount on city tiles vs the promotion. It's probably skewed towards Barracks, so I'll look at boosting the Krepost in v10.5. What size maps are you playing on at the moment regarding AI expansion? The vanilla game seems to have been tested by Firaxis mainly on Standard/Standard, as all other map types and game speeds end up having strange balance issues imo. This correlates as well towards Large/Huge map sizes in NiGHTS. The AI does expand faster than in vanilla, but not always to their full potential - especially on these map sizes.

The recent official Wonders from the DLC will not be included - as this would lead to strange empty spots on techs for those who purchased it vs those that didn't (probably the majority). I may, however, still introduce copies of them which mimic their abilities. As for when Wonders are built, it all depends on which AI are in the game, their flavor tendencies, and what victory type they decide on pursuing. The actual build times can vary quite a bit in that regard. I didn't really want Lighthouses appearing that early in the game because there are already a plethora of food-resource buildings in the Ancient Era. The Lighthouse makes the upper Tech path more desirable at the moment. What I could still end up doing is switching the buildings around on the tree while also switching their abilities - which would ensure the Great Lighthouse is built earlier. (And synergies do work with the UB's).

Agreed on Cultural Revolutions - these will make even more sense when they become permanent between Revolutions. As for the Pagoda, it's one of those buildings that I didn't want to be available in every City, (like vanilla Observatories) - plain and simple. I could potentially remove the prereq and make it a little bit easier to build than it currently is, though.

 

[JFD]

So far, with the latest update, I have noticed that A.I. civs do not spam cities as quickly as they previously did, which I wholly prefer.

As a suggestion, perhaps you could rename the Kremlin wonder to Saint Basil's Cathedral, which the image actually shows, and maybe the Kremlin could be added as a seperate wonder. Just a matter of specifics, but you've thus far portrayed the wonder's far more accurately than vanilla Civ (such as the Great Oracle's giving of a free social policy, rather than a tech, and vice versa for the Great Library), and I think it would be nice to do the same for Russia's main wonder. And if you're ever interested in adding additional wonders, the Tower of London wouldn't go amiss, perhaps with an effect on unhappiness, or occupied cities, as it would be nice if there were a few more Civ-specific Wonders.

Nonetheless, the mod as is is progressing excellently and I am particularly looking forward to the implementation of permanent governments. This mod has definitely brought the life back into Civ.

 

[Steinernein]

Clearly, it would be a funny feature (who knows if it would be 'fun') if loyalists and radicals had a civil war depending on the actions you took prior to the cultural revolution , then you can safely annex off AI cities as they're in a middle of a civil war or vice-versa. After the cultural revolution ends you gain control of all rebel cities +have a new government type.

Oh, a general question: What settings do people play most on with Civ Nights and what other mods best work with Civ nights?

 

[looorg]

I wouldn't look to much at that City healing thing, if you lower it to much then the tactic of just throwing wave after wave of cheap crap troops at the city until it crumbles will once again be the one to use and that quite frankly sucks hard.