No Modding Tools, Please!

[SJSerio]

A pipe dream of mine is to have an editor that does just that, though I don't think many of the people that really want them would like to deal with stuff like iCombat, so there would need to be a way to display known tags nicer.

Another idea I just have is to interface the editor with the SDK, so the values the editor needs can be added directly. For example, instead of using gc.getInfoTypeForString("CIVILIZATION_ROME"), you would use gc.getEntryType("Civilization").getEntry("Rome") in the code. That would allow new types of entries and fields to be added without breaking the editor.

And I think I speak for all of us when I say that even advanced modders will use the editors if they are good enough and would be really happy if we could have both editors and modding that is at least as powerful as civ4.

With MS Access, you can create forms that use multiple tabs and create tabs within that. I am certain that you could do that with a self built editor as well. Then you can arrange the fields into groups that you can put on each tab, with the more prominent ones being within the first couple of tabs and the more background stuff in the later ones.

 

[Shylock]

You do know that developers often use the tools they give to us themselves to work on the game?

Bethesda RPGs are well-known for the fact that the editor they give with their games is more or less the same one they used to build the game for example.

 

[EdCase]

You're a 3d modeller and can't handle Blender?

So how did you draw that conclusion from my post ?

On second thoughts never mind. I don't really care.

 

[deanej]

You do know that developers often use the tools they give to us themselves to work on the game?

Bethesda RPGs are well-known for the fact that the editor they give with their games is more or less the same one they used to build the game for example.

I doubt the civ3 developers made everything in the game with the editor. Though they might have for the stuff that the editor can be used for (maps and most of the stuff that can be done with XML now).

 

[Hail]

this discussion is a variation of the old "give us programming language so simple, that that we can program without knowing how to program"

who stated that modding should be a simple task?

if you have only 15 minutes of spare time and expect to make a mod. i will disappoint you: the best you can do is make one of "my first unit" crap mod, that no one will give a crap about.

simple tasks, such as tweaking some unit type's attack value can and should be done by hand. i do realize that tracking dependencies in quite a few XML files can be a pain, but i do not think, that the devs should create editors just for that.

of course there should be some map/scenario editor. i can't image making scenarios else wise.

i think that a map/scenario editor + SDK + some source code is the best way to go.

as to all other possible editors: the devs should not waste their precious time writing them. be prepared to spend some time learning (XML, python, etc.) and if you are not up to it, then you should not be granted the right to mod. i prefer quality over quantity any day.

 

[Earthling]

Afforess, you were and still are 100% right. Regardless of what people who just want to "add one unit or graphic" and have no intention of major modding or programming ability. I of course hope we could get both but I still fully agree that I'd rather have the SDK/source.

(coming from someone who right now really doesn't effectively use such, but I'd rather the potential was out there.)

 

[Takhisis]

But why couldn't we have both, Earthling? Why should this be posed as a matter of choosing between them? They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[EdCase]

this discussion is a variation of the old "give us programming language so simple, that that we can program without knowing how to program"

who stated that modding should be a simple task?

Who stated it shouldn't ?

if you have only 15 minutes of spare time and expect to make a mod. i will disappoint you: the best you can do is make one of "my first unit" crap mod, that no one will give a crap about.

Ahh! recognition the goal of all modders, or not. There are some that would like to mod their own games for themselves, who require neither "fame" or praise.

simple tasks, such as tweaking some unit type's attack value can and should be done by hand. i do realize that tracking dependencies in quite a few XML files can be a pain, but i do not think, that the devs should create editors just for that.

of course there should be some map/scenario editor. i can't image making scenarios else wise.

Modifying maps can be achieved by tweaking files as can creating scenarios. Everything is data after all.

i think that a map/scenario editor + SDK + some source code is the best way to go.

But your not the developer so............

as to all other possible editors: the devs should not waste their precious time writing them. be prepared to spend some time learning (XML, python, etc.) and if you are not up to it, then you should not be granted the right to mod. i prefer quality over quantity any day.

Granted the right ? Who died and made you

Your aware that simply because something can be downloaded your NOT actually obligated to do so, right ?

 

[The_J]

So how did you draw that conclusion from my post ?

On second thoughts never mind. I don't really care.

Um, yes i did draw that conclusion.
you as "pro" should be able to handle the professional tools without big problems, and it should be easier and more satisfying for you than using an included editor.

 

[EdCase]

Um, yes i did draw that conclusion.
you as "pro" should be able to handle the professional tools without big problems, and it should be easier and more satisfying for you than using an included editor.

If you followed the thread earlier you'll see I started with Lightwave(Amiga) and 3ds Max Dos.
I currently use Max, Maya and ZBrush. Blender is a good enough open-source tool, but not the flavor I crave.

'nuff said ?

Oh! and developer tools are very useful with regards to modelling and animation. Without them you end up (usually) writing your own import/export maxscripts (though I'm figuring import scripts will have to written anyways) or recreating their skeletons,hierarchy,naming conventions, guessing at scale...blah, blah,blah........

 

[Afforess]

Who stated it shouldn't ?

You are going to be very disappointed. Even with an all encompassing GUI modding tool, modding will still be very time consuming.

Ahh! recognition the goal of all modders, or not. There are some that would like to mod their own games for themselves, who require neither "fame" or praise.

Because the stated goal of every modder is fame...

 

[Lord Tirian]

Um, yes i did draw that conclusion.
you as "pro" should be able to handle the professional tools without big problems, and it should be easier and more satisfying for you than using an included editor.

Just a note - I'm using Blender only... but a couple of years ago, I was using 3Dstudio MAX (not for modding though)... and the UI is very different. And from what I gathered, Blender has a somewhat idiosyncratic interface - for me, not a lot of my skills I acquired on 3Dstudio MAX transferred over, I basically relearned everything (of course, the AutoCAD + 3Dstudio MAX setup my father used was for architecture, so they deviate from the "generic" workspaces a bit) - and that's my view as amateur 3D modeller, I'd almost bet that professionals have a much, much stronger preference (for example, the Fortran <-> C++ rift at our physics department is... erh, sometimes very unpleasant!).

On included editors: that's a mixed bag. Editors specifically made for modding usually suck, but they're very accessible. Editors used by the developers themselves are usually very helpful and convenient (though they often have a steeeeeeeep learning curve... I remember the time I used the NWN2 toolset).

Cheers, LT.

 

[EdCase]

You are going to be very disappointed. Even with an all encompassing GUI modding tool, modding will still be very time consuming.

Because the stated goal of every modder is fame...

Me ? I won't be disappointed, if I mod anything it will be for my own satisfaction so the time I spend will be my own. Please remember I started modifying games, scenario creating, modelling, texturing etc etc..before you were born. I do have a rough idea what it entails

Stated goal...hmm, I have donated many models over the years without even asking for a mention in the credits..so I guess it is not (was not ?) always the case.

But good luck with your endeavours, I hope you gain the "fame" you crave.

 

[Afforess]

Afforess, you were and still are 100% right. Regardless of what people who just want to "add one unit or graphic" and have no intention of major modding or programming ability. I of course hope we could get both but I still fully agree that I'd rather have the SDK/source.

(coming from someone who right now really doesn't effectively use such, but I'd rather the potential was out there.)

It makes me glad to see sanity in this forum.

I hope you gain the "fame" you crave.

While I appreciate backhanded jabs as much as the next guy, remember, talking about individual users is against the rules.

 

[Earthling]

You know I would sig that except I know it's not really about me personally, just the opinion I expressed. (ie. if that was in like an OT politics thread that would be sigged in an instant) Though yes, I do think your stance is reasonable and I think a lot of others are missing the point. You (and I) are not against, say, an easy map editer/worldbuilder - but I know that really doesn't do very much for serious modding. I certainly know I couldn't do what I wanted like add new victory conditions, change the AI, etc... just by adding in new units or maps or graphics. Though I haven't done such because I'm not a great modder - but I'd rather the potential was there for those who want it.

And Takhisis - it's not that we couldn't have both. It's that I mostly agree there probably won't be both. I also don't know of any games that marketed both the "customizable interface stuff" and had SDK-like resources available. Judging from other games, stuff like Spore etc... I see exactly what the problem with civ V going this route is and think it's reasonable modders would be concerned.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: This thread is starting to become more hassle than its worth.

Can I strongly suggest that people start discussing the ISSUES, and not each other? Otherwise, I close the thread, and deal with the people.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[EdCase]

While I appreciate backhanded jabs as much as the next guy, remember, talking about individual users is against the rules.

Afforess, for what it is worth, that was a genuine comment.
I'm too long in the tooth to be snide to someone the same age as my youngest of 3 children.

I'll reiterate my viewpoint one last time. Editors if planned into the development cycle will never detract from the modding possibilities, especially when being touted as a marketing point.
Modern games when touted as moddable are coded to be exactly that. Civ was late to the party with IV. I'm expecting V to be as open, but more streamlined in its processes.
Time and the game release will be the only things that can truely answer the questions though.

You may have more noise as you call it, but if your mod is good, it will stand on its merits no matter what.

Now I really must get back to SOTS, I have some Hivers needing to be squashed underfoot.
Be well

 

[Takhisis]

Take the personal comments off, pleeease... if you want a mosh pit, post in YouTube comments or join forumwarz... but not here.

 

[mamba]

Wow, it takes only 15 minutes to learn it? That is pretty amazing...

if all you want to do is tweak a few numbers that is all it takes

Most stuff will take an hour or two to figure out though - and some like the citystyles are even more involved

OK, sarcasm aside, XML is not so plain. Yes, it is readable, and I can understand and find a good amount of it for basic editing. Of course, there are many "functions" that I am clueless as to what they do (throughout all of the files) and when it comes to Schema, I am lost. Regardless of it's "ease" to learn, it is a pain to work through. All of the lines and cross referencing to make sure that file is edited so this will work and such. Give me a simple, user friendly editor any day of the week.

I am with Afforess on that one, get a decent xml editor and just spend a little time learning the xml formats

Anyway, my point is that yes, I can read the XML, but it is the hassle of editing it that is the problem. It is very time consuming and, quite frankly, tiring... especially for someone that is not a programmer. I am more of a designer! That is my passion and getting bogged down in code (be it C++, Python, or even XML) just takes me away from my passion and makes it a chore.

Learning nifskope and blender seriously takes a lot more effort than editing xml (Python and C++ may be another issue). So if that is what you did manage to learn, xml should be relatively easy (though potentially not as 'fun')

 

[mamba]

So wht you and Afforess are saying is that people that don't know how to program should not be allowed to contribute?

XML editing is not programming.

Even if you do not do that, you can obviously still contribute. There are people like Bakuel or Ekmek who only create content (units, leaders) for others to use. Since you feel artistic that is the direction you could take, or you could colaborate on a mod where someone else does the 'coding'.