No Modding Tools, Please!

[deanej]

It's not just terrain types. With your proposal, what would you do if you wanted to add a new XML field? By having the editor, you would not be able to do it. Best case scenario is that you break the editor, therefore rendering it pointless (at least as far as your mod is concerned, and all the people that don't like Aforress's stance here will be just as angry at the mod maker for breaking the editor). Worst case is that you simply can't do it.

As far as I can tell, most of the people that really, really want an editor wouldn't care if we would be unable to make mods that couldn't be made with the civ3 editor, without cheesy workarounds (such as having two resources that are mostly identical, because you can't add a resource to a plot at a specific time).

 

[Dale]

With an XML editor the fields to edit can be loaded from the XML schema. Since the XML file must match the schema, there's nothing to say the editor thus can't use the schema to dynamically create the fields to edit.

 

[Afforess]

With an XML editor the fields to edit can be loaded from the XML schema. Since the XML file must match the schema, there's nothing to say the editor thus can't use the schema to dynamically create the fields to edit.

What if I add an entirely new XML file? How will the editor cope then?

 

[Takhisis]

I want an editor for making maps, perhaps a separate basic XML editor would come in handy, but it'd be optional.

 

[EdCase]

And even if that is not the case with the (theoretical) editors Dale.
The point of an SDK is to go beyond what the casual modder happy with editors is setting out to achieve, thus allowing those who wish to to retain their status as "master" modders. Simply because the casual modders will not be able to tweak a setting and call it their own.

I am a fine example of what I am describing. Usually I'm happy with using the vanilla rules. I am a graphics whore however (duh! 3d modeller,animator & skinner) so any official tools related to map/terrain-making and models would be fantastic.
Someone else may wish to alter the tech tree (it's a given, someone always calls out.."but, but....hair braiding is essential to Civ we must have it!").
Well wouldn't a tool facilitate rather than hinder this desire ?

Others, well they want to alter fundamental mechanics, for this you need to get your hands dirty.
Finally, I don't understand why anyone would get angry at someone for "breaking" a tool that wasn't designed to go beyond its limits. That makes no sense. After all you would be modding a mod,packaging, which requires knowledge..................

 

[Dale]

What if I add an entirely new XML file? How will the editor cope then?

Adding XML files is obviously outside the realm of the "casual gamer" who the editors would be targeted for since to do such a thing would also involve SDK modifications to load the file . And if you're good enough to add in a new XML file to the SDK then you don't need an editor!

 

[Dale]

And even if that is not the case with the (theoretical) editors Dale.
The point of an SDK is to go beyond what the casual modder happy with editors is setting out to achieve, thus allowing those who wish to to retain their status as "master" modders. Simply because the casual modders will not be able to tweak a setting and call it their own.

I am a fine example of what I am describing. Usually I'm happy with using the vanilla rules. I am a graphics whore however (duh! 3d modeller,animator & skinner) so any official tools related to map/terrain-making and models would be fantastic.
Someone else may wish to alter the tech tree (it's a given, someone always calls out.."but, but....hair braiding is essential to Civ we must have it!").
Well wouldn't a tool facilitate rather than hinder this desire ?

Others, well they want to alter fundamental mechanics, for this you need to get your hands dirty.
Finally, I don't understand why anyone would get angry at someone for "breaking" a tool that wasn't designed to go beyond its limits. That makes no sense. After all you would be modding a mod,packaging, which requires knowledge..................

I think you meant to remark this to Afforess. I'm advocating editors.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

at first i laughed cause i thought the OP was trolling... but it appears hes serious.

@Afforess: just because you are an exceptional modder that doesn't need tools, that doesn't mean the rest of the modding community doesn't want (or need) them. for a lot of people modding is scary business, with such tools it will expand the modding community hugely (which is a good thing).

i actually find it kind of offensive that you would include me (and the rest of CFC) in your rant. as the second poster said: There is no We in your argument. i think very small minority of people would support this.

that all said, im not denying you your opinion, just giving you mine.

carry on then. as you were.

 

[Afforess]

@Afforess: just because you are an exceptional modder that doesn't need tools, that doesn't mean the rest of the modding community doesn't want (or need) them. for a lot of people modding is scary business, with such tools it will expand the modding community hugely (which is a good thing).

Apparently, you didn't really read the OP. That isn't a real concern;

my real concern is that if they give us some fancy, easy to use modding tools, a la Civ3 or Spore, they will cripple us from making advanced mods with the SDK. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can not think of a single instance, in gaming history, where a company gives users a simple editing tool AND the advanced source code too. It's always one or the other. And if we have to decide, I want the advanced code. It's as simple as that.

No one has yet adequately addressed this concern, so my argument is still valid.

 

[LDiCesare]

Apparently, you didn't really read the OP. That isn't a real concern;

my real concern is that if they give us some fancy, easy to use modding tools, a la Civ3 or Spore, they will cripple us from making advanced mods with the SDK. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can not think of a single instance, in gaming history, where a company gives users a simple editing tool AND the advanced source code too. It's always one or the other. And if we have to decide, I want the advanced code. It's as simple as that.

No one has yet adequately addressed this concern, so my argument is still valid.

First of all, I don't think that anything you or we can say will change what Firaxis does. Your argument is still as valid as it ever was.
Second, you might want to read this again:

I also wonder whether the game engine Civ V uses comes with gaming tools they can redistribute. Tools for skinning characters or previewing 3d models for instance. If Firaxis could deliver these, it would cost them nothing but could help modders a lot.

If they include tools given by the engine, which make art-bundling/editing easier, then it doesn't clash with text files modding, as text files allow you to assemble art resources while tools may help make them.
There's no reason why they wouldn't provide an xml editor and the xml files if they wanted to. I know my firm sells a product where we provide both an xml editor and the xml files. Nothing prevents anyone from editing the xml files by hand if they like.

 

[Quintillus]

Without an SDK, the mods we will see will be on par with current Civ3 mods. Civ3 mods pale in comparison to Civ4 mods. I would go as far to say that there aren't really any Civ3 mods so much as there are Civ3 game tweaks.

Have you actually played top-notch Civ3 mods recently? Sure, there are limitations such as not being able to mod the AI, and not being able to seed events, and these are problems (although the no event scripting one may not be insurmountable). But to call them all merely "tweaks" - not only is it disrespectful to the modders, but if you'd actually some of the really good ones, you'd realize they're a whole lot more than merely "tweaks".

Maybe limitations when using the editors, but if there is still access to the raw files then it would be win-win if they release a user-friendly editor.

Agreed. And it seems Takhisis does as well (see below).

You don't grasp the concept of logic then
You say anyone can learn, I said I know someone who couldn't, so there's at least one person who can't, so your anyone is wrong, but you dismiss it nonetheless. I may of course not grasp the difference between anyone and everyone, not being a native English speaker but I think you're just ignoring arguments that prove you wrong.

LDiCesare does use logic correctly. He's logically disproven Afforess here.

I'm glad to see that sanity is being restored.
What about my third option: both. Have an editor for casual modder dummies (e.g. me) but still allow for manually editing the game with XML editors/notepad/whatever you prefer. I still think that a map maker would at least be useful.
For what it's worth, if you start checking in the civ3 utility programs section you'll find that terrain files can be edited manually using hex editors. So terrain types that you can't put together in the game editor, such as Sea tiles just alongside the coast, are feasible.

I think this would be an excellent option. There's a lot to be said for a "simple" editor for "basic" modders who just want a "tweak" of the game, and don't want to learn programming. And there's also a lot to be said for a lack of limits for those who do have the "15" minutes to learn programming.

at first i laughed cause i thought the OP was trolling... but it appears hes serious.

@Afforess: just because you are an exceptional modder that doesn't need tools, that doesn't mean the rest of the modding community doesn't want (or need) them. for a lot of people modding is scary business, with such tools it will expand the modding community hugely (which is a good thing).

i actually find it kind of offensive that you would include me (and the rest of CFC) in your rant. as the second poster said: There is no We in your argument. i think very small minority of people would support this.

that all said, im not denying you your opinion, just giving you mine.

carry on then. as you were.

I agree. It was arrogant to use "we" in the opening post, having not first established even a plurality by legitimate means. I'd suspect more people would support decent modding tools than be opposed to them in general. But rather than do research to discover if this is the case or not, you supposed that "we" all agreed with your position.

I, despite being a student nearing a computing degree, find the modding tools in Civ3 quite useful. Sure, I know how to program, but not in every language (I've never used XML or Python, for instance), and it takes more than 15 minutes to learn a language for all but supergeniuses like yourself, and even then I'm sure some knowledge of similar languages helps. And sometimes, when all you do want to do is really a tweak, a nice handy editor is really convenient. Yeah, I can program in C or Prolog, and can program without a GUI. But that doesn't mean such tools aren't convenient.

Does it take time to develop these tools? Yeah, of course. But it's nowhere near as complex as developing the entire game. And, as someone said in this thread, the tools can then be used by Firaxis themselves to speed up scenario creation (if you really want to edit maps manually in files, that's pretty ridiculous. I've done it before, and much prefer the Civ3 editor or the Civ4 WorldBuilder). They'll also introduce many people to modding who may well have not gone into modding had such tools not existed, and increase the value of the game. Some of those who start with the editor will graduate to programming, increasing the number of "programmer" modders. And the editor will provide a relatively "safe" harbor for new modders, increasing the stability of their "tweaks" - from what I've played of Total War mods, the lack of an easy-to-use editor can result in much less stability than would be desired.

It's certainly in part your tone that's irked me, but in the end I'd trust Firaxis on this. They've set the precedent high for modding, and I don't think they want to pull a Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 on modding for Civ5, so significant limitations are unlikely. And if it really took that much time to develop an editor, I doubt they'd do so. And having played around a good amount in Civ editor creation myself, I'm sure a full-time team at Firaxis that knows the program better than the back of their hands could make a decent one without delaying the game by more than two or three months .

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

Just release the editors source code and don't hardcode and we should get by...

 

[Dale]

I can not think of a single instance, in gaming history, where a company gives users a simple editing tool AND the advanced source code too. It's always one or the other.

Crysis. There is the Crytek Sandbox, which is a user-friendly easy to use GUI based editor, and there is the Crysis Mod SDK which contains source code, access to the full assets and the ability to manipulate anything (except the core Crytek engine).

There's one which blows your statement out of the water. I suggest you don't resort to generalities to try and make statements. There's always an exception.

I'm sure there's others, but I've wasted enough time disproving pretty much everything you've said. I can't be bothered wasting more time. Enjoy your fears and like I've said twice in this thread, the only fear you should worry about is if Firaxis do give us an editor for the masses that you mod isn't lost in the "noise", as you lovingly refer to it.

 

[SJSerio]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I can not think of a single instance, in gaming history, where a company gives users a simple editing tool AND the advanced source code too. It's always one or the other.

To expand on what Dale said, how about Heroes of Might and Magic (I believe it was...) 4. That had an editor with it, along with a scripting portion that allowed deeper modding. Let's see, well, there was this game called Neverwinter Nights and its sequel, Neverwinter Nights 2. Both had robust editors along that while relatively complex compared to a strategy game editor, was still easy enough for anybody to create simple scenarios, etc. That, of course, had the more advanced scripting source for advanced modding. And let's not forget Morrowind from Bethesda...

Heck, look at RPG Maker XP and RPG Maker VX. They allowed for creation of some very intricate works with the editor portion alone... Throw in the Ruby Script (I think it is called) that was included, and people have made games far beyond the intent of the programs.

 

[Ikael]

Sorry, but I would love to have a simple level / unit editor. I don't have programming skills and all my mods tends to be on the small scale / balancing side. I don't think that to develope such tools would be too much of a hassle for Firaxis.

 

[The_J]

Just trolling here: In the case of Civ4, Visual Studio and Notepad/Wordpad are modding tools, aren't they?

I am a fine example of what I am describing. Usually I'm happy with using the vanilla rules. I am a graphics whore however (duh! 3d modeller,animator & skinner) so any official tools related to map/terrain-making and models would be fantastic.

You're a 3d modeller and can't handle Blender?

 

[Shiggs713]

I wouldn't mind seeing some simple little tools for some of the people that modding would otherwise be to intimidating. At least some worldbuilder-esq tool. Someone already mentioned somewhere about modding unit graphics/models easy such as how you create a creature in Spore, except it would be preferably in an external editor this time. Something like that would be nice, but I would want to have other options as well. Maybe some kind of XML editor for the noobs, but honestly, I'd never use something like that. If you can read English, you can write XML. Its stupid simple and anyone requiring one won't be making much of a mod anyways.

I agree with Afforess to a degree, generalized modding tools are not the way to go if you want to see good mods... its too complicated for that. I'd basically like to see it just like civ4 but with an improved world builder and an easier way to swap weapons, skins and body parts between units. Maybe some other little additions, but seriously leave the coding to the coders.

 

[mathepic]

Just trolling here: In the case of Civ4, Visual Studio and Notepad/Wordpad are modding tools, aren't they?

Neither are specific to modding.

 

[Chazcon]

This entire thread is nothing more than chest-beating by the OP.

Have a nice life, Afforess. I'm out.

 

[deanej]

With an XML editor the fields to edit can be loaded from the XML schema. Since the XML file must match the schema, there's nothing to say the editor thus can't use the schema to dynamically create the fields to edit.

A pipe dream of mine is to have an editor that does just that, though I don't think many of the people that really want them would like to deal with stuff like iCombat, so there would need to be a way to display known tags nicer.

Another idea I just have is to interface the editor with the SDK, so the values the editor needs can be added directly. For example, instead of using gc.getInfoTypeForString("CIVILIZATION_ROME"), you would use gc.getEntryType("Civilization").getEntry("Rome") in the code. That would allow new types of entries and fields to be added without breaking the editor.

And I think I speak for all of us when I say that even advanced modders will use the editors if they are good enough and would be really happy if we could have both editors and modding that is at least as powerful as civ4.