No Modding Tools, Please!

[mamba]

You do raise a good point. But there are still the people who just want to add a civ, change unit stat, make a simple scenario. Why do these people have to go to the trouble of learning a programming language just to make one or two little tweaks?

You do not need to learn a programming language to do so.

Yes, but it can look quite overwhelming, with all these short-form tags, "i" at the beginning of some tags, "b" at the beginning of others. More complicated than simply opening a window and changing a text box from "15" to "16" or using a scroll menu to change a prerequisite from bronze working to iron working.

Once you have done it a few times (2 or 3) it comes natural, I agree the learnign curve is steeper, but it also offers more flexibility.

If you never did it because it felt too complicated, you never realized how easy it is.

 

[Takhisis]

mamba, since you apparently know XML, is it the same as Blender? Hard to learn but easy to do once learned? Beginning in Blender was a nightmare but I got there eventually. If it's the same with XML, it might be worthwhile.

 

[The_J]

Edit: @Takhisis: XML is easy to learn .
Just the mass of files and where to look at will make it difficult at the beginning. It just needs time at this point, but it's technical not difficult.

If you followed the thread earlier you'll see I started with Lightwave(Amiga) and 3ds Max Dos.
I currently use Max, Maya and ZBrush. Blender is a good enough open-source tool, but not the flavor I crave.

'nuff said ?

Sorry, must have forgotten it .

Oh! and developer tools are very useful with regards to modelling and animation. Without them you end up (usually) writing your own import/export maxscripts (though I'm figuring import scripts will have to written anyways) or recreating their skeletons,hierarchy,naming conventions, guessing at scale...blah, blah,blah........

I guess, the firaxis artists didn't use more specialized things than the "normal" 3D modeling programs...but i'm not an artist, so i'm probably wrong here.

Just a note - I'm using Blender only... but a couple of years ago, I was using 3Dstudio MAX (not for modding though)... and the UI is very different. And from what I gathered, Blender has a somewhat idiosyncratic interface - for me, not a lot of my skills I acquired on 3Dstudio MAX transferred over, I basically relearned everything (of course, the AutoCAD + 3Dstudio MAX setup my father used was for architecture, so they deviate from the "generic" workspaces a bit) - and that's my view as amateur 3D modeller, I'd almost bet that professionals have a much, much stronger preference (for example, the Fortran <-> C++ rift at our physics department is... erh, sometimes very unpleasant!).

Fortran o_O.
on topic: The point is, that if you've learned one of the programms, then you have the abilities to do, what you want.
That you might have to learn some/many things new, is sure right, but you can do it. That you might have preferences, sure, but that normaly comes because you're just used to some of the things, that you don't know, how to do these things in the new program, etc, etc. That changes over the time.

 

[Shiggs713]

I know thats like saying oh I learned how to program using codeblocks so I can't use VS 2008. You can, you just didn't try hard enough.

 

[mamba]

mamba, since you apparently know XML, is it the same as Blender? Hard to learn but easy to do once learned? Beginning in Blender was a nightmare but I got there eventually. If it's the same with XML, it might be worthwhile.

Well, I do not know blender, always shied away from it I wold expect blender to be more complex however.

In xml it took me about 2 hours to have all the stuff figured out I initially wanted (adding civ specific units). It probably would have been faster if I had not searched for and read a few tutorials on this site about how to add units as they all were pre-BtS. I spent more time reading them than it would have taken to just look at examples, which I then ended up doing on top of that anyway. In the end I did it differently from what the pre-BtS tutorials described (granted, pre-BtS you could not do it that way, so BtS made it easier)

Everything (with one exception, city styles) I wanted to do in xml since was easy, it followed the same logic established by the unit xml. The files and tags changed but it wasn't new any more, just a variation on the same theme.

Now if you were to ask me what each tag in the xml does, I doubt anyone knows exactly, but for most of what you do you can ignore most of them and for the rest you simply go by comparison (like LH behaviour).

 

[Takhisis]

XML is easy to learn? Might give it a try... but i don't ahev Civ 4 here with me to try its real effects.

 

[mamba]

Where I really think tool support could help were easier unit and leaderhead creation.

If you could simply add / remove items like swords and rifles or hats and coats in an editor that would be nice. The animation would then follow what weapon you equipped or something like that. Texturing obviously is done in some graphics program, so no need to provide anything for that.

Even something simpler like having the ability to put any unit on a horse, a chariot or an elephant plus the ability to swap heads or animations + weapons and you have 95% of the units out there (minus the texturing) No need to swap coats etc.

For leaderheads something similar could be possible. In many rpgs you can change the face by adjusting mouth, nose, eyevbows, hairstyle, beard, face overall (thin, thick) and obviously the color of all of this. Have this and again the ability to put on coats, crowns, hats and you are all set for a host of new leaders and units

I doubt they provide any of this though, but if there is something I really want over what came with Civ4, that is it.

 

[Jawa'sRevenge]

A agree with what has been said, except the python, I can't write python worth anything, although maybe thats because it was the first real programing language I tried.

Known: C++, Visual Basic
Learning: Unreal Script
Tried: Python, C

 

[phungus420]

Python is very similar to C++. It looks the same to me really, just have to be careful with the whitespace, but failing to compile because of semicolons is pretty similar. Also the capital-lowercase conventions seem to be different, at least in civ, but it's not like that matters.

 

[Adler17]

Anti-Aforess

Sorry for not having the time to read all 180+ posts here. If my points were already told, I am sorry to repeat them and not only second them.

Int the very first moment I thought: Aforess, are you the fat swag of madness (like there is here a proverb in Germany)? Indeed Civ is LIVING on the editor and the other modding tools. Anything else would be out, soon. Indeed it is a matter of fact, that many good scenario creators like Rocoteh and El Justo did not come to civ IV but remained at civ 3. It has the better modding tools than civ 4. Better means, better to to use for people without knowledge on programming. Only then we have most people able to mod.

Modding tools means living of Civ. Full stop. Without them it would die slowly.

Again, these tools must be simple. No BS of text editors or ingame editors. They are way too complicated. But an external tool, you can design maps, rules and everything. Additionally it would be fine for a graphic editor, too, where you can make your own units and buildings and so on. Then we all have the fun we had with Civ III.

Adler

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[LDiCesare]

Anti-Aforess

You might want to remain at least remotely polite. I mean, there are rules, and a little bit of respect can't hurt. And I can't say I agree with Aforess, but you're pushing things a bit far.

It has the better modding tools than civ 4. Better means, better to to use for people without knowledge on programming. Only then we have most people able to mod.

That's just totally false. Civ 4 has better tools in the sense they are more powerful. Fall from Heaven 2 couldn't exist in Civ 3. The mods one can do in Civ IV are far superior to those which can be done in civ III. If Civ V has less modding power than Civ IV, then it'll be a failure for me. Providing tools, external or not, is good, but providing access to data files and a scripting language is a must.

 

[Nitram15]

I agree with Afforess. Other programs, could destroy Civ 5. Maybe an XML editor, or a Civ 5 Model editor could be fine.

 

[Afforess]

Indeed Civ is LIVING on the editor and the other modding tools.

No it's not. Civ4 has NO modding tools. There are TONS of mods. There are more mods for Civ4 than there is for Civ3, which does have modding tools.

Better means, better to to use for people without knowledge on programming.

It's already been discussed to death here, but there is no real way to get around the programming requirement of modding. There's no such thing as a tool that will let you code C++ without actually knowing C++ before hand.

Again, these tools must be simple. No BS of text editors or ingame editors. They are way too complicated. But an external tool, you can design maps, rules and everything. Additionally it would be fine for a graphic editor, too, where you can make your own units and buildings and so on. Then we all have the fun we had with Civ III.

Civ3 mods all pale in comparison with Civ4 mods.

 

[Dale]

Civ4 has NO modding tools.

WorldBuilder is a modding tool. I would advise you to stop using generalities. They seem to be your defeat every time.

 

[Afforess]

WorldBuilder is a modding tool. I would advise you to stop using generalities. They seem to be your defeat every time.

I'm sure everyone here will agree the WorldBuilder is more of a testing platform than an actual modding tool.

 

[SJSerio]

I'm sure everyone here will agree the WorldBuilder is more of a testing platform than an actual modding tool.

No, it is a modding tool. Not a very good one, but a modding tool, nonetheless!

 

[Nitram15]

I don't think so. Can you add new civs with it? Can you add new civics, and new graphics with it? No.

 

[zeggy]

Firstly who is this "we" ?

Secondly modding tools and editors have never stopped any dedicated modder from ignoring/working around them in any game.

Lastly, modding tools are quite convenient for some who would wish to make straightforward mods but actually have an ongoing life outside of the game.

I totally agree

 

[LDiCesare]

I'm sure everyone here will agree the WorldBuilder is more of a testing platform than an actual modding tool.

No. It's a modding tool. If you want to create a scenario, it's very convenient as it allows you to see the layout of the lands. You can later write your scripts to react to units entering tile x, but without the WorldBuilder, it would be a real pain to make your scenario.

I don't think so. Can you add new civs with it? Can you add new civics, and new graphics with it? No.

Can you add new maps with it? Yes. Can you add new scenarios? Yes. A tool isn't supposed to do everything. This one does only 2 things: Map making (and it could be better at it) andd scenario creation. Saying these aren't modding is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Nitram15]

No, these aren't modding. These are a very few things, and I don't suppose this is modding Civ4.