No ranged units challenge, masochistic version

[Matthew.]

Well, gave it a try.

Started with Monty nearest to me (with jungle/forest around my cities, oh joy). I was forced into a very slow start in order to get enough warriors to hold off his rush.

From there, I picked off weaker cities when convenient. Unfortunately by the time I was able to move on to bigger things, Rome already ran with the game. I quit when Ottomans declared war right before Dido and I were going to team up on Rome.

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Even with the AI helping by taking out half the Civs for me, there was no way I was going to be able to get through Rome's 100+ defense cities before someone finished the game.

Some thoughts on the game:

Spoiler :

-I think with a semi-secluded start and time to get a few cities and NC up, it wouldn't be too bad. What slowed me down wasn't the AI's military, but their city defense. A quicker start would probably allow you to keep up with enemy city defense better.

-I didn't get as many promotions as I thought I would. Mainly because I was forced to burn many of them on instant-heals, as I didn't dare lose more units than needed.

-Once you survive the initial rush, the AI sucks as usual and is unable to launch any sort of competent attack. More specifically, the AI sucks at keeping their military upgraded so come T200+ and they are still running around with trebs and CB's... doesn't matter what you use.

-With roughly equal combat strength, it takes 6 infantry two full rounds of attacks (with pillage in between) to take a city.

-I do think that any detour to the bottom of the tech tree does slow you down quite a bit. With my first point, I think a semi-secluded start and bee-lining to Universities would help counter it, but it still means swords/Lswords are useless.

-A single siege unit probably would have won me the game

And Pilgrim, I think I understand your point a bit better in the original thread. CB's are what allow you to hold off that initial AI rush with ease, which snowballs into faster NC, science, techs, gold, etc. In addition, it allows you to counter-attack while ignoring siege/melee techs.

I'm not really sure what that means though. CB's could get nerfed, but since the AI can't play the game, it isn't going to affect mid/end-game much. Perhaps a penalty against cities, as you suggested, would be enough. It would allow you keep up defense, but if you wanted to counter-attack you may need to bring more than just bows. The numbers on cats/swords may need to be modified, too; it would depend on how big of a penalty archers would have against cities.

 

[Tabarnak]

This is more or less what i explained earlier. I didn't get Civil Service very fast because of poor food locations and spearmen focus

So it's now the turn 94 and 2 armies of 9 and 8 landsnechts are ready to go outside. At 220 piece, the UU is cheap. I will buy a lot more to replace dead ones and maybe create a 3rd army. I will get Chivalry ASAP too and build some horsemen in capital soon.

With all this power level i also bullied a couple of cs

Spoiler :

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Save file :

 

[The Pilgrim]

-I think with a semi-secluded start and time to get a few cities and NC up, it wouldn't be too bad. What slowed me down wasn't the AI's military, but their city defense. A quicker start would probably allow you to keep up with enemy city defense better.

It's the combo I think. As someone already mentioned, by the time your units reach the cities they're damaged, which doesn't help at all with taking down defense.

-I do think that any detour to the bottom of the tech tree does slow you down quite a bit. With my first point, I think a semi-secluded start and bee-lining to Universities would help counter it, but it still means swords/Lswords are useless.

Yep. But that's barely surprising. The easiest way, probably, is turtling until industrial/modern, gaining a huge tech lead and then, as you said, it's doesn't matter what you fight with anymore. But defeating outdated units doesn't prove much.

And Pilgrim, I think I understand your point a bit better in the original thread. CB's are what allow you to hold off that initial AI rush with ease, which snowballs into faster NC, science, techs, gold, etc. In addition, it allows you to counter-attack while ignoring siege/melee techs.

Right. Archery line allows you to cut through enemy lands like a hot knife through butter with minimal loses and yet focusing on infrastructure and building at the same time. While infantry is irrelevant. So I understand your point as well and agree with you.

I'm not really sure what that means though. CB's could get nerfed, but since the AI can't play the game, it isn't going to affect mid/end-game much. Perhaps a penalty against cities, as you suggested, would be enough. It would allow you keep up defense, but if you wanted to counter-attack you may need to bring more than just bows. The numbers on cats/swords may need to be modified, too; it would depend on how big of a penalty archers would have against cities.

Another option would be increasing archers costs. If we take into consideration cost/benefit ratio of ranged and melee, the difference is just ridiculous. I don't really know whether it's a good solution though. I came to the conclusion melee units need to become relevant again.

 

[budweiser]

There are so many I want to try: Babylon, Alexander, Japan, Hiawatha are at the top of my list.

 

[tommynt]

obviously this is far from imposible, espacially with Germany or just outteching and overrunning ai with superior units later on.

Dont think I d do it with promo units but rather just with masses (suround city - attack pillage/promo heal - take) loosíng like 2 units per city attack d just happen anyway - but so what ...

Also shonghai ftw only civ which might take cities without looses - build army of 10-15 horses - upgrade - take cities 1 after another ..

In fact, with shonghai it might feel like a normal game

 

[Moriarte]

Well, even with great start location, i quit.. around turn 180. Basically, i took all civs but Darius and Denmark OCC before turn 120. Darius had an impossible location, surrounded by mountains, hills, river, etc.. so whatever i threw at him, i lost, inevitably. Even riflemen vs. pikes/trebs/knights didn't give me any edge.. Can't be bothered to play this game until mech. infantry or something. So, my verdict is: doable, but situational.

Won't be doing something like this again. I love ranged units .

 

[Matthew.]

It's the combo I think. As someone already mentioned, by the time your units reach the cities they're damaged, which doesn't help at all with taking down defense.

It wasn't that bad for me. I just took ~8 with, and when the AI targeted one or two or them, I just pulled them out and the other 6 were already surrounding the city.

I may have been overly cautious, which slowed me down as well. I didn't want to get into a situation where I was forced to retreat all my units, else start losing them.

obviously this is far from imposible, espacially with Germany or just outteching and overrunning ai with superior units later on.

Dont think I d do it with promo units but rather just with masses

Yeah I think that would be the best way to go about it, too. I'd even say it is probably doable on deity with the right map.

So, my verdict is: doable, but situational.

Agreed.

 

[sufficiency]

An update:

Originally I wanted to go after Arabia next (because of his nice capital that also has the Petra), but after some consideration I decided to go directly to Korea (despite my DoF with Sejong) because he was wayyyyy too ahead in tech. Also my military advicer told me that Korea was "sad and only". This does mean passing through Arabia's land and denouncing one of my friends, but oh well.

Spoiler :

Sejong had basically no units whatsoever, however, Seoul had 70ish defense....

Spoiler :

IT HURTS IT HURTS IT HURTS IT HURTS!!!!

Spoiler :

Well, at the end it was all worth it I guess (I think I lost 7 Muskets). I got a nice capital with tons of wonders, plus another 11 pop city. My happiness is -22 now, but I can't take on Arabia yet so I will wait. The good thing is that I am ahead in tech against him, so I should be able to build up and crush him. Polynesia is REALLY mad at me, but his army isn't that big (yet) so I should be OK. As far as the other players go, Germany is really weak, so is Askia. Harold is essentially dead, and so is Theodora.

Spoiler :

I am so glad I didn't wait for Rifling to kill Sejong. He already had Industrialization and Rifling when I took his capital. Any slightest delay would have certainly doomed me.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

well, this self-imposed strategy will make me focus on UUs that often get skipped entirely. otherwise, it's a brief detour from the few optimal strategies at higher diffs.

i tried ottomans for janissaries but never got to rifling from an early push in my first game from Cathy (with 8 units when i had 4 warriors) and in second game from Hiawatha with Mohawks and comp bows at t70. I had warriors and horses. that was also a weird game when Oracle went at t59, a real rarity in my games. Neighbors and terrain have more to do with anything in my effort. I might have to pre-pick the AI and see what happens.

anyone else notice that at immortal or higher it takes more than 1 coal to get a factory? i bought one from an AI and tried to rush buy it but it was still grayed out. And I had no units that I built or was gifted that required coal. when i bought a 2nd one in the same turn I could buy it. it was like that for subsequent rushbought factories a few turn later (getting 200gpt from a GA to fund it 4 turns later).

 

[Monthar]

@ sufficiency, please put your screenshots in spoiler tags.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

@ sufficiency, please put your screenshots in spoiler tags.

or thumbnails. those are really big and screw up the layout of my page.

 

[Tabarnak]

Well my game didn't go like i wanted. I lost some units against Stockholm and replaced them immediately to reach Honolulu later. That city was already at 30 and surrounded by hills

Meanwhile, Delhi was also surrounded by hard stuff to go through like mountains and hills, rivers, etc.

I stopped at the turn 117. It was an ''all-in'' strategy, i.e. teching to a point where you only build units to win as fast as possible before they got too strong for that era. My civ was pretty healthy, buying a unit almost every turn. But i couldnt hold entirely these attacks.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Points to ameliorate :

-Get Civil Service around the turn 85 instead of 93-94
-Land on a lucky area with better spots to settle and grow(played the 2nd roll)
-Get lucky with non hilled capitals and their extra city placements
-overall luck with cs and indirect helpers

Is this strategy is viable? Of course it is. That was way from perfect. It was fun though

 

[The Pilgrim]

Well, even with great start location, i quit.. around turn 180.

I think the fact almost all of us quit says quite a lot.

Won't be doing something like this again. I love ranged units .

Same here. I always knew I loved them, but I needed this challenge to find out how deep is my love.

Well my game didn't go like i wanted.

I'm not surprised, although I had my hopes high while waiting for your report. It's easy when you have soft cities and little military to deal with, but when you occasionally hit hills and walls and you most definitely will at some point, all your progress goes down the drain.

 

[budweiser]

Here's a good thing to take away. When you scout make note of if the capital is on a hill or flat. An embassy will work too. Then you can judge your chances on something like this. In my game from the other thread, only Denmark was on a hill.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i decided to try with japan. i had a fortunate start. i moved the settler to a hill that later had 6 iron on it. and i bought 2 tiles right beside a CS for another 6 iron (with a 3nd city, not my cap). this fueled me being able to take 1 city pre-100. it had 11 defense and i lost one of 6 units doing it. i settled for decent gold peace deal while America took the next city i was gunning for. i got samurai ~t115. made a push for another city on the way to a cap when this silliness happened. Monty took 2 of Persia's cities. I took on of Persia's city while America took his cap. But at the same time Pacal was taking Monty's cities. Before I took the other Persian city that Monty took he offered a peace deal involving Teotihuacan. I wasnt paying attention that Pacal was taking it. I didnt take it cuz i wanted Pasargadae on my way to his cap. I have it down to less than half life and clicked next turn. During his turn he settled for peace with Pacal and gave him Pasargadae in the process. It shut out all my units and locked 3 of them from getting back to my other city. DAMNIT! He saw his impending doom and had to settle with someone. That is hugely frustrating. I can dow Pacal real quick and get it back but my other cities are hugely vulnerable to him just marching south to my cities. stuff like that is infuriating, particularly when im on my way to 2 caps before muskets.

i had a great quarry start (2 stone 1 marble and 2 more in another city) and at t60 when i got my pantheon it was amazingly still available. (i also got mausoleum later for good gpt.) i got the 3rd religion at t85 or so and took ceremonial and asceticism. later enhanced for Rel. texts (IP was already taken) and mosques. ive got about 20fpt to fund them and maybe later a gp from policies. i went liberty and took a GS with finisher. no wonders available as im consistently behind in techs but not too far (difference in me and tech leader isnt much--only one in ren era so far).

its t137 and im getting unis up in about 5-10 turns but im not sure what to do about that awful peace deal Monty gave Pacal. i can refocus and move to another cap and settle for peace with monty. he is permanently weak for later as he is last with only his cap. somebody might take care of that for me anyway. or i can go directly for pacal. itll take me about 10 turns to move them back to his area though.

im trying for the first time a new (to me) way of doing melee. ive given every samurai the medic promo. with 2 barracks and 2 cities making samurai every 5 turns the ones im losing arent as big a deal cuz they pop with medic promo as a first promo option. my swords i upgraded didnt have it until the 2nd promo. and they are getting roughly 20-25 hp/turn when next to each other. so the time between moving to the next city has actually been pretty nice. like 3 turns or so. im curious what they might be like much later with more promos. im thinking ranged defense to limit dmg vs dmg increases. after uni's im not sure when i'll catch up in tech and still go for muskets/rifles.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

HA! just went back to that situation to dow Pacal. I did and took that city from him. I then proceeded towards Montys cap and lost about 4 units taking it. The turn before taking it Pacal came to me with a peace deal for gold and Monty's city Teotihuacan. I took it, liberated it to him and then took his cap. Everyone pretty much hates me anyway (all guarded and hostile) but I wasnt going to be the one to remove a civ from existence, haha. it's t153 and im building my 2nd army to try an split them up. im using all my iron as im 1 tech from Gunpowder. i want them all to have carry over benefits. I'll try and keep them alive this time. When I get my muskets ill mass upgrade and march. I have 14 iron now, so 2 armies of 7 plus a couple horses and pikes for each. I have an awful China w/GW situation that i'll have to try and figure out how to deal with later. and ill need some remote annexes for reinforcements later but that has to wait til happiness improves.



also, it was funny to see t151-liberated monty's city and took his cap after that, 152-he comes to me with a DoF and i took it, 153- he denounces me. im not sure if he's crazier than Nebuchadnezzar or not but he's about as bipolar as they come, haha.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Well, even with great start location, i quit.. around turn 180. Basically, i took all civs but Darius and Denmark OCC before turn 120. Darius had an impossible location, surrounded by mountains, hills, river, etc.

Should have been America.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

yeah. unreal. i quit about t175. i had to reload and try a 2nd effort after splitting to 2 armies wasnt going to work. i started again from the upgrade to muskets and moved my entire army to the Americans. i chopped up 1 crappy city (def 22), and started in on a second one (def 28). that's when he rolled up with minutemen and cav in mass numbers. 2 to 1 for mine. every further promo went to insta heals. Boston, 9 pop and 28 def with terrain that isnt too bad (but still abusive for minutemen) and i lost 10+ units trying to take it. i seriously think the game just insta-spawned 20 units out of thin air. i bled him before the attack so he didnt have 2k in gold to rush buy them and he was 4th in mil strength and 'about as strong as us' from the adviser. before i gave up after 15 turns of combat 16+ promo'd samurai muskets went down the tubes to a superior minutemen outnumbering from complete thin air. plus he spammed 3 more cites before i could take two.

im sure this is a 'doable' strategy for others but its so tedious and problematic that it's not worth it. it's out of my system now. i'll try to do a more balance warfare in the future but without seige the melee units wont cut it for me. he actually had a spearman that took me 3 attacks to kill with a MUSKET! seriously stupid.

 

[The Pilgrim]

yeah. unreal. i quit about t175.

Welcome to the club!

he actually had a spearman that took me 3 attacks to kill with a MUSKET! seriously stupid.

Yep. All AI has to do is to fortify a screen of melee outdated guys on hills and good luck with taking them down. Melee vs. melee = guaranteed stalemate. Defending is so much easier. You need a healthy bunch of horses to flank and have a semi decent chance to break through.

 

[sufficiency]

Yep. All AI has to do is to fortify a screen of melee outdated guys on hills and good luck with taking them down. Melee vs. melee = guaranteed stalemate. Defending is so much easier. You need a healthy bunch of horses to flank and have a semi decent chance to break through.

Hence "masochistic version"!