Nobels for Violence

[raider980]

T100.

• Stockholm completes CB, start Settler.
• Bombard Palenque but not enough damage to take it yet.
• Meet Samarkand, ally of Morocco.
• Bribe Ashur to DoW Ghandi for the reasons stated in my previous post.

Interim. Spearman killed at Palenque. Ahmad DoW us, he has a lot of troops; Pikes, Swords, Trireme, Horses and strangely, still Archers not CB. Scout near Morocco is killed.

T101.

• Horses to Gandhi, 2 for 3.
• Still bombarding Palenque. It still doesn't look like the CB will do enough damage this turn to allow the horse to cap it. So I kill one of the enemy CB guarding the city as well as attack the city itself.
• Abandon Linkoping; Worker and CB retreat toward Turku, no point in sacrificing them in a hopeless battle.

Interim. No losses.

T102.

• Capture Palenque, puppet it. Ouch, we're at -19gpt. Make white peace with Pacal. He has Atlast and Swords still near city and our troops need to head east anyway.
• Stop Settler in Stockholm, don't need it right now, start Market for money.
• Caravan to Ashur.
• Hmm, Ghandi is actually the one on offense, he's attacking Dur-Shar. Ashur's troops haven't moved from around Birka.

Interim. Lose Cahokia Whales, Moroccan Trireme pillaged them.

T103.

• We're low on happiness, buy the Gold tile in Uppsala and move worker to mine it.
• Discover Drama & Poetry, start CS.
• Vatican City wants a road. No longer friends with Almaty and Lhasa but can't do anything about it at the moment.

Interim. Linkoping falls, took longer than I expected.

T104.

• Sigtuna finishes Stable, starts Circus.
• Adopt Patronage; decided to go with this so we can get lots of CS.
• GAd meets Malacca; Mercantile, friendly. Where are all the AI Civs on this other continent, there are none on the east coast.

T105.

• We meet Shaka on the other continent! He has Inscense and Truffles for trade, both of which we need for WLtKDs. Trade him Copper for Truffles.
• Birka builds CB, start Library.

Interim. Morocco finishes Machu Pichu, thanks Ahmad.. Gandhi builds Alahambra.

T106.

• WLtKD in Uppsala.
• Stockholm finishes Market, starts Library. Helsinki finishes CB, starts Library. Lund finishes Monument, starts Granary.
• Leif recruited as a spy, send him to Delhi since Ghandi has Chivalry.
• GAd meets Zanzibar, Mercantile, Irrational.

Interim. Pacal denounces us.

T107. Moving troops east, could use some roads in the east.

T108. Ahmad doesn't appear to be coming for Turku. Moving troops.

Interim. Angkor Wat built in a far away land.

T109.

• Trade Shaka Ivory for Insence.
• GAd meets Mogadisu, Maritime, Hostile.
• Stockholm finishes Library, return to Settler in one turn for city near Casablanca. We wanted one there anyway and it may help with the assaoult on Casablanca.
• Gold is online.
• WLtKD in Birka.
• Western road system is nearly complete, helping our gold situation.
• Adam the Explorer steps on a barb infested island.

Interim.

• Ahmad offers peace for Turku, No.
• Cahokia got their Iron and Whales back.
• We're now swimming in happiness. (Happiness changes so fast in this game).
• Adam gets hit by barbs, needs to get off that island.

Spoiler T110 Map West :

Spoiler T110 Map East :

Spoiler The Zulu :

Spoiler Adam in Trouble :

Summary.

• GrPr born.
• Spy discovers Gandhi is building Notre Dame in Delhi.
• There's an annoying Morrocan Scout that is hovering around Palenque.
• Spearman east of Lund is heading back to become a Pike, CivServ next turn.
• Samarkand is no longer ally of Morocco and I forgot to make peace with them.
• Workers near Turku are pre-building a road back, but I don't think we want to finish the tiles because that's a lot of gold wasted for a lot of turns. Perhaps I should have just marched them back west.
• Should have switched Circus in Sigtuna to something else when we no longer needed happiness I guess but forgot and now it only has one turn left.
• Ashur and Gandhi are now friendly with no red modifiers.
• We have a lot of CB, only 3 Spear/Pike. Maybe I should have built another Spear or two but wasn't sure whether to wait for Pikes so I waited.
• Those two road tiles outside of Palenque's territory are not costing us gpt. But there is one inside that can be razed when the new road gets built.

Turn: 110 Era: Classic (for 1 more turn) gpt limit: 40 current gpt: 9 may DOW bribe: No may GS bulb: Yes Cities: 9 Workers: 8 may CS worker steal: No

(Sorry, couldn't figure out how to copy the table)

Since Gren is out, @vadalaz up

 

[vadalaz]

T110:
- Moving troops
- Enhanced our religion with Religious Center and Messiah
- Bought a couple of tiles
- Annexed Palenque
- Gifted 4 Horses to Ashur
- Sold 2 Iron to Gandhi

Interim: DoF with Assyria. Kyzyl wants us to denounce Ashur.

T111:
- Civil Service done, started Engineering
- Barb swordsman spotted near Palenque

T112:
- Uppsala converts to Mayan religion
- Met Attila. Copper <> Wine.

T113:
- Peace deal with Pacal ends. Looking for a worker steal opportunity
- Fighting near Casablanca, killed a Swordsman

T114:
- Sigtuna also converts to Mayan religion
- Engineering done, started Iron Working
- 2 Iron <> 3 gpt Attila
- Met Sydney on our continent, south of Tyre. Friendly, Gold
- Killed a Sword and a Pike

T115:
- 2 Horses <> 3 gpt Attila
- Settled Espoo. This triggers reckless expander penalty w/Ashur and Ahmad but not with Gandhi or Pacal for some reason
- We have a spare Ivory but noone wants it atm
- Caravan to Cahokia for the quest

Interim: Shaka in Renaissance via Gunpowder, Gandhi finishes Notre Dame in Delhi (and starts a... Shrine)

T116:
- Exchanged embassies and OB with Attila to explore a bit faster
- Ask around if anyone wants to co-DoW Pacal, all decline
- DoW Pacal, kill a CB and capture a Worker
- Mosque in Uppsala
- Noticed I could make peace with Samarkand so I did that
- PtP all CSs in case we want to stack it with Consulates next for a 25 influence resting point

T117:
- Plundered Mayan caravan, bought 3rd ring Gold in Palenque
- Met Singapore, Neutral Gems Jewelry
- Met Sejong, Ivory <> Cocoa
- Killed Moroccan Pike
- IW done, started Metal Casting
- India gets a pantheon, Desert Folklore

Interim: Shaka allies Sidon, Almaty wants our religion, Quebec wants Gems and investors

T118:
- Killed another Moroccan Pike
- Met Ur, Neutral Furs
- Caravan to Delhi

T119:
- We enter a Golden Age
- Moroccan Knight spotted, bad news for our CBs
- So I bribe Ashur to attack Ahmad, exchange OB and retreat a little bit

Spoiler Screens :

@beetle is up. Notes:

- CB in Stockholm was heading for Mt Kili to get the bonus
- I've been worker-baiting Ahmad's units near Casablanca. It's been working fine so far but do be careful now, Knights can one-shot CBs on open terrain
- Pacal pillaged our Horses in Palenque. And that's a Mayan missionary in the barb camp nearby
- Could prioritize Workshop in Palenque and speed up that Great Engineer
- Tech steal in 7 turns. Exchange embassies with Sejong and move to Seoul after the steal? Delhi still doesn't have a university or NC

Info:
------------------
Cities 9
Workers 12
Cannot steal from CS (need cities >= workers)
------------------
Medieval era

GPT from AI: 18 (cap 60)
Cannot bribe
May bulb GS
------------------

 

[raider980]

Haha, the other continent looks like a fun place to be. All we need now is to meet Dido, Alex and Genghis. Sejong must be having a great time.

Interesting religion choices. I'm guessing the Messiah is because Pacal has spread his religion to some of our cities. We can buy Mosques and then convert them all back. And, since we captured the holy city of Palenque, remove the heresy from there and take it over for our own religion. Nice.

I was hoping we could steal Chivalry from Gandhi, that may help with the Moroccan Knights.

 

[beetle]

One or two kills almost every turn, which I could not be bothered to note. Which seems odds because when I was sinking Dido’s ships, I so enjoyed making the tally!

• T120
  • upgrade Pike
  • adopt Consulates
  • put Pagodas on auto purchase
  • switch Palenque from Aqueduct to Couthourse
  • trade 3:1 w/ Ashur for WltKD and CS quest
  • exchange embassy and OB w/ Sejong (sorry, but I am too curious to wait for CS quest)
• T121
  • Shaka wants forgiveness for bullying Zanzibar, decline
  • trade Marble for Silver w/ Sejong
• T122
  • renew Spices for Copper deal w/ Ashurbanipal
  • Metal Casting researched, start on Guilds so we there will be choices of what tech to steal from Gandhi
• T123 Pacal offering up (new) Tikal, decline
• T124
  • loose a CB to Cape Town Pike
  • Ashurbanipal denounces us (backstab)
  • denounce Ashurbanipal
  • Guilds researched, start on Philosophy
• T125 Ahmad offering 1 gpt for peace, declined
• T126
  • loose a Pike to Moroccan Knight
  • Shaka asks to exchange embassy (agree)
  • meet Nebuchadnezzar, exchange embassy
  • trade Nebby Copper for Salt
  • discover Rock of Gibraltar, 2 NW left
• T127
  • loose Horseman
  • Philosophy researched, start on Theology
  • steal Machinery (because it was more beakers than Steel or Chivalry) from Gandhi (he did not notice, 27 turns to next steal)
  • move Spy to Seoul
  • revoke a couple PoP where influence is solid green
• T128
  • Forbidden Palace built in a far-away land
  • negotiate for mutual OB w/ Nebby when he offers 1 gpt for our OB
  • Gandhi founds Hinduism in Delhi
    • on the other continent, only Attila has founded a religion
  • Theology researched, start on Education
• T129
  • scarcher upgraded to XB
  • moving only Level 4 CB back to our territory

[table=head] Turn | Era | gpt limit | current gpt | may DOW bribe | may GS bulb | Cities | Workers | may CS worker steal

130​

|

Medieval​

|

60​

|

7​

|

no​

|

yes​

|

9​

|

12​

|

no​

[/table]
@fiddlesticks is up. I was going to use Catholic missionary to convert Espoo. Islamic missionaries I have been sending to Stockholm for modest beakers. Sorry for not anticipating the Machinery steal. The units with most xp were farther from Espoo, and we don’t have much money for upgrades. I think the only thing I built in Stockholm was Swords and Horsemen. Expos have been Libraries then Workshops. There must be a barb camp south of Palenque.

 

[fiddlesticks]

Here’s a few thoughts for the next few turns:
- We have more happiness than we need. I’d trade whatever luxuries we can for cash.
- Upgrading our CBs would be my priority for any gold we have.
- I’m inclined to make peace with Jerusalem and Pacal. Assur will certainly attack sometime soon and any forces on the Mayan front belong down on the Assyrian front.
- I’d like to take down Casablanca ASAP but I think the next 10 will be mostly upgrading, sniping units and positioning. I’ll try to put @raider980 in as strong a position as possible there barring an emergency from Assur.

How does that sound?

 

[vadalaz]

Sounds good. I'd also get a Great Prophet for Almaty and future CS quests, and start the road to Ragusa. We need to ally CSs on our border.

Islamic missionaries I have been sending to Stockholm for modest beakers.

Wait, so non-founders get beakers from captured missionaries of IFD religion? I didn't know that. Small tip if we're gonna do this then: try to weaken the missionaries down to 250 strength first, then send them to Delhi which has more followers than Stockholm. Weak missionaries won't be able to convert too many of Delhi's citizens, keeping Gandhi happy and IFD beakers high.

 

[fiddlesticks]

130 - moving military. Switched Palenque to Workshop. Sold 3 luxuries for gpt to Shaka, Sejong and Nebuchadnezzar respectively.
131 - Ahmad ally of Jerusalem - no point in peace atm. Horses/iron <> 3gpt Atilla
132 - 2 horses <> 3gpt Atilla
Assur enters Renaissance
133 - Atilla 4 horses <>6gpt, Open Commerce (I'm not sure this was the best pick - sorry)
Assur makes peace with Ahmad. Gandhi denounces Assur. Finish Education.
134 - Stockholm finishes Workshop, starts University. Only Espoo needs a Library before NC
135 - Fighting Ahmad
136 - Peace with Pacal 61g, 1gpt.
137 - Gandhi marble <>240g, Caravan back to Assur. Hong Kong (mercantile Neutral, PoP)
138 - Make peace PoP with Jerusalem
139 - Save faith for Great Prophet. Almaty and Jerusalem both want our religion. Working the Workshop in Palanque, so Great Engineer in 5 turns now. National College perhaps?
Interim - discover Steel, lose a Pikeman.

I made a lot of unit upgrades to crossbows. One in Espoo will get the range or logistics promotion after one more attack. Sorry the army is battered near Casablanca, but I took out quite a few Moroccan units to only one Pikeman lost. Assur is going to attack any minute, but I've got units in the area.
We have an extra Great General to gift in Stockholm. He popped on turn 138, but I thought we could discuss where best to use or gift him. I'd like to get the military city-state with Janissaries, but Shaka has him allied at 100+.

I'd save for a Great Prophet for the nearby city state quests. That should get us Almaty and its Mandekalu Calvary.

We have a spy steal available (Chivalry, Acoustics, or one I forgot).

We have a choice on our National College location. Capital or Sigtuna with a future Observatory?

 

[vadalaz]

One minor thing: let Lund work Horses, capital can work flatland Copper or farm instead. Lund needs the hammers. Could send it a hammer caravan at some point as well.

As for the GG we might want to citadel into Nimrud and get some roads there. Ashur has too many units and Nimrud's a good city to capture: mountain, river, 2x Bananas (eventually), 2x Spices, Horses.

Sejong on 5-city Tradition/Rationalism with T138 Archaeology will be a problem.

Oddly enough, 2 religions are still available.

 

[beetle]

+1 for Citadel between Birka and Nimrud. Buy a tile while we still have OB. Unfortunately, until we are at war, we won’t be able to plant a Citadel right next to Nimrud (because that would remove a Forest or Jungle).

Good spotting on Sejong. He needs to be handicapped, and since neither Attila nor Shaka have done so already, it’s probably too late for them to be up for the task.

It is no longer too soon for a discussion on Rationalism. Are we opening it? If so, are we finishing it? I could go either way on both questions. I usually like to try for Porcelain Tower of course, but I presume there is no chance of that this game.

If we allow lump sums, I think we'll have to remove the limit on AI gold altogether, otherwise we'd have to do lump sum to gpt conversions and keep track of too many things, which gets boring really quickly.

I very much agree with avoiding any accounting which might get boring.

But I also very much appreciate us having some limitations on using the rich deity AIs for free money. How about one of these (or some variation):

• 10 gpt per era from trades (so half of our current limit), no limit on lump sum trades
• keep current 20 gpt per era, but add allowance of one lump sum trade per era per AI
• tally each lump sum trade as either 7 gpt (resource) or 8 gpt (lux) and put an asterisk * in the summary table we are now including at the end of a ten turn round

 

[fiddlesticks]

Good tip on the IFD missionaries. I didn't do that with the one I had though.

I forgot to mention Gandhi asked to co-DoW Assur around turn 138 and I declined, but he's clearly not a fan.

I built a Pike in Birka who doesn't have Altitude training yet. We should pick that up if the circumstances allow.

Also SUGAR - everyone seems to want it. No city-states have it. Keep your eye out for a chance to get at least 3 quests and one or more WLKD.

We still need cash for more upgrades (warrior and swordsmen). I didn't check if there was anything else we could sell Gandhi.

I like the citadel idea too. We need a good blocker unit for it. Our old Pikeman (who deserves a name of his own) is on the way there, but unfortunately he's open terrain promoted. Nevertheless, with altitude training and the cover promotions he may be our best citadel damage absorber at the moment.

 

[fiddlesticks]

On the gold issue. I'm in favor of scrapping it (i.e. the limitation is whatever we can sell).

 

[beetle]

@fiddlesticks we need a gold limiting rule.

T207: Peace deal time.

• 162g + 108 gpt from Pacal
• 476g + 80 gpt from Askia
• 394g + 27 gpt + Citrus from Pachacuti
• all of Indonesian unique luxuries from Gajah
• 107 gpt from Attila
• 3069g from Genghis to buy labs
• Osaka from Oda. It's a good city - 19 pop, Whales and Crabs, 5 Great Works, Forbidden Palace, Parthenon and a Public School. We can either sell the city to Genghis or keep it. I'd keep it for stronger endgame bulbs.
• Bought all missing labs
• Sold Stele in the capital, will rebuild for overflow
• GMu spawned, turned into a great work
• Themed Louvre and Sistine with the Japanese great works. We're up to 44 tourism, 165 culture and 27 happiness and that's without Universal Suffrage or Bank happiness. I don't think we'll need Eiffel after all.
• Started Windmills in some cities, we need all the specialist buildings

That was not his only round where @vadalaz demonstrated how to break the game. It has been great fun playing with him!

Also SUGAR - everyone seems to want it. No city-states have it. Keep your eye out for a chance to get at least 3 quests and one or more WLKD.

We get ours back on T150, sooner if Asurbanipal DOWs us.

 

[vadalaz]

I don't think we've ever hit the cap since we upped it to 20*era even if we account for the lump sums, so might as well remove the limit to keep it simple. Things only get out of hand when selling cities or DoWing for profit, so we maybe that's what we should ban or put a limit on, not the gold from selling resources. For resources we've banned selling single strategics for 2 gpt and that should be good enough.

 

[beetle]

I am +1 for ban on DoWing for profit, and no cap on gpt or lump sum trading. It was only the single strategic for 2 gpt that I wished for us avoid. I agree that is good enough.

How about a DP w/ Gandhi and making peace w/ Ahmad (for now). I am also okay with wars on two fronts.

@fiddlesticks How are we at peace w/ Jerusalem? Were they allied with Pacal when you made peace? If not, I can live with it, but my preference would be for a reload.

 

[fiddlesticks]

@beetle Jerusalem was allied with Ahmad for a few turns but then dropped out of Ally status. So it had no Ally at the time peace was made.

 

[Grendeldef]

@beetle Jerusalem was allied with Ahmad for a few turns but then dropped out of Ally status. So it had no Ally at the time peace was made.

I think he's referring to the rules, not how it was possible at all.

Rules:

• Only way to make peace with a CS is through a peace deal with its major civ ally

 

[fiddlesticks]

I see now. I can replay those turns if the group would like.

 

[Grendeldef]

I have no view or advice to that part but this rule was implemented as an addition to the rule corcerning DoWing a CS just for Workers. The purpose was to make it less lucrative & cheezy by preventing quick & easy peace.

 

[beetle]

I vote for continuing as-is (i.e., not reloading) but that we agree to replace this rule with something simpler (e.g. no CS DOW before T50) for the next game. That was an option we did consider before deciding to go with the current rule.

I was surprised that this rule caused to us to be at war with Ormus through to the end of the Byzantium game. That happened again last game (Brazil) with Panama City. So I was quite curious to see: Will the pattern repeat for a third time in a row? We don’t seem to be good at picking on CS that our enemies find attractive! I think there might be a subtle bit of causality being exposed here.

 

[fiddlesticks]

Maybe a simple rule could be: limit total CS worker steals to 2 per game and put a floor on CS war lengths (i.e. any war with a city-state must be for a minimum of 10-20 turns).