Nobles' Club 272: Augustus Caesar's Great Experiment

[shakabrade]

@krikav
Yup, you overextended, you greedy Scandinavian, that is the only risk on this map Antium did not really bring anything to you. For the stone city, I chose to share my Dry corn and a FP. It makes regrowing much fast, city can whip a Granary and Workers, does not require a border pop for stone and makes Mids much safer. Wheat would not have changed my mind. I see my Mansa was lucky with Jewish reli. You needed to wait for Confu. I was extremely lucky. Earlier religion helped my happiness and culture wars. Your Ravenna was risky, Mansa could have slipped before the border pop. Did you put it on the hills for better barb defense?

@Kernigh
Markets and courthouses are just too expensive. Epecially on Monarch you can get whatever you want with units or you could failgold much more money from even some eralier wonders like ToA to keep the science slider constantly up, making markets totally useless.

 

[krikav]

Have not even read your entire post yet, but this....

Those civic switches are the bane of me. Almost every GOTM I played, I forgot about them.

Hah, that is comforting. I'm playing the BOTM209 and yesterday after I forgot civic switch (essential) last turn of the GA and had to eat a 2 turn anarchy more or less 1 turn after the GA had finished.
I saved the game and called it a night then.

 

[shakabrade]

Have not even read your entire post yet, but this....

Hah, that is comforting. I'm playing the BOTM209 and yesterday after I forgot civic switch (essential) last turn of the GA and had to eat a 2 turn anarchy more or less 1 turn after the GA had finished.
I saved the game and called it a night then.

Yeah, that hurts.

If there was a NC no replay rule, I would have played many of the maps with barbs not having Archery. If before T5, I just add Archery when I remember, but sometimes you make 10 moves with your warrior and see 3 barb warriors and then realize that you need to go back all over again and redo the damn opening.

 

[krikav]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

Ravenna was settled T58 and blocked his path entirely, closing off the path east. I had the settler there for some time and it was only when I saw him moving east with his settler that I did settle. Rome had popped borders again by then and with the peak all tiles where covered.

I think you are right with Antium, but settling a second city fast on a PH with insta-connection.. Well, I couldn't resist.
That extra commerce helped me get pottery before economy crashed completely, which was needed because I settled that city.

You seem to have had a very smooth and efficient game! I did play it differently, built a bunch of pretorians and bullied Mansa quite abit, poor guy didn't get any metal!)
Did work out OK too, did a lib-astro T144. Shaka found me with his caravel and was kind enough to sell me his map so I got traderoutes right away!

 

[krikav]

I add abit of the play up to Astro here too, I did play abit more after this I think, but then the game got put on hold which seems to have become permanent.

Spoiler T143 :

I teched alpha and traded for IW. Traded compass away for math at some point too, but cant remember when. Self-teched currency too because I needed it.
I probably went way to light on the cottages, but I hate building cottages when I got rep scientists.

Peace for CoL+some small stuff. Getting CR3 pretorians to upgrade to grenadiers later.

Over the course of the game, I bulbed philo->2x Education->Lib, and only after that I did an academy iirc.
I love these screenshots with units everywhere and cities in revolt and "Adopts Pacifism".
The turn after this revolt, Mansa gives me CS for Philosophy+some gold. Timing was not great.

I was hoping to get some good trades out of the guy when I got paper, but he had different plans and stole it from me the turn I got it.
With him at only 2 cities at this point, i could gift him 2 fishing villages for him to develop, then I liberated Gao and gave him some warriors.
I realized I had overbuilt prets totally and replaced all warrior garissons with 3xp prets but didn't want to delete free xp warriors. It pained me abit to keep them during pacifism though.

After 5-10 turns he had not made much progress at all getting these cities up, so I gave him a handful of workers too.

A more compact and more peaceful approach would surely have been better. Losing out on parth/GLib and the nationalwonders failgolding was harsh.
Was fun dominating Mansa and playing with him abit though!

 

[shakabrade]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

Ravenna was settled T58 and blocked his path entirely, closing off the path east. I had the settler there for some time and it was only when I saw him moving east with his settler that I did settle. Rome had popped borders again by then and with the peak all tiles where covered.

I think you are right with Antium, but settling a second city fast on a PH with insta-connection.. Well, I couldn't resist.
That extra commerce helped me get pottery before economy crashed completely, which was needed because I settled that city.

You seem to have had a very smooth and efficient game! I did play it differently, built a bunch of pretorians and bullied Mansa quite abit, poor guy didn't get any metal!)
Did work out OK too, did a lib-astro T144. Shaka found me with his caravel and was kind enough to sell me his map so I got traderoutes right away!

Spoiler :

I totally did not percieve the mountains... Yeah, you did well by waiting the last moment as you already had too many cities. I probably settled it sooner as it was my 4th city.
Glad you found out that circular logic behind the not totally necessary city. Which is definitely a decent city. But with so much food and some happy resources, you get to work all the tiles very soon. For me, the key was that my stone city was able to pump workers and settlers, together with cow-copper and that allowed the capital to work all the cottages asap and share all its food tiles. Also, the best thing ever was going to Alphabet after Writing. Usually I go Aesthetics and trade for Alpha and build not so essential stuff while waiting for Alpha as I have nothing better to do and have no money to support anything. Gpt was awful but the science was great, as I built it.

 

[Kernigh]

@shakabrade, I build Courthouses everywhere, because I'm afraid of city maintenance. When I have enough cities, my Financial Advisor shows high "Number of Cities Maintenance", and I expect each Courthouse to save a few gold per turn (for the rest of the game). I don't like the Market as much, because it loses value if I survive to the late game (when I would lower my gold rate and have more than enough happy faces).

I don't get much gold by failing wonders. In my Zara Yaqob game, I wanted to fail the Colossus, but AI Augustus Caesar has completed it, so I got less gold than I wanted. (I would have gotten more gold if I began the Colossus earlier.) Now that the Colossus is gone, I have no more world wonders to fail. I have a failing Moai Statues (national wonder), but I can't collect the gold until I complete the Moai Statues in a different city. In this NC272, playing as an Industrious Augustus Caesar, it might be easier to fail wonders, but I might want to complete the wonders for a possible Cultural Victory.

 

[Berks]

Enjoyed reading the reports. Work's eating Civ time so sticking to the other game I've got going. Good luck with the finish everyone

What determines where AI settles 2nd site and their initial research path?

Spoiler :

I played a dozen turns during some breaks at work a couple of times, and each time Mansa settled the Silver/Crab site and ruined the fish site for me due to also making it the hindu holy city.

Moved warrior SW first time and SE 2nd time, SIP, researched Ag and built Worker, if that matters.

[\spoiler]

 

[jnebbe]

@shakabrade, I build Courthouses everywhere, because I'm afraid of city maintenance. When I have enough cities, my Financial Advisor shows high "Number of Cities Maintenance", and I expect each Courthouse to save a few gold per turn (for the rest of the game). I don't like the Market as much, because it loses value if I survive to the late game (when I would lower my gold rate and have more than enough happy faces).

The idea is that those hammers will either produce more by building wealth, or that it will take so long for those buildings to pay off that you could've instead built military and conquered ai in that time instead (and often the ai will build markets+courthouses for you)

 

[Nick723]

Played a rather meandering game on demi-god...so far to Astro.

Spoiler :

Wow, Mansa is close! On demigod and as Imp, quite easy to box him in

Spoiler :

Went agri -> BW, then whipped the first settler at size 4

Spoiler :

Mansa beats me to the southern spot, but I get northern crab/fish and then block him by the stone.

Plan is to head to great wall and use border pop to get cows.

Get a rather late great wall turn 52, not sure it's very optimal play given our neighbour is Mansa (who will trade anyway) but I want to try out tech stealing in semi iso. Pyramids follow T68.

It's all in vain anyway, as I don't get a Great Spy!

Then I make the slightly questionable decision to limp to code of laws without getting pottery. One turn of strike and I get there, and surprisingly I found Conf!

From there, another slightly questionable decision to try and utilise the marble for failgold and I go aesthetics->lit. Miss Great Library by one turn, but get good fail gold which sets me off towards optics at last. Then Mansa gets Alpha (woop!) and I can blaze my way there by trading with him.

I actually bulb optics in the end, double bulb astro and get it T142.

Spoiler T141 Astro situation :

Fun map so far, has felt a bit of a breeze but I'm sure it'll get tougher from here!

 

[Kernigh]

Started a game at Monarch. I had played at Prince but went up to Monarch for NC 270 Napoleon, where I won a Domination Victory. I stay at Monarch, 3 difficulties below Demigod. (I deleted and remade this post because I forgot to put the screenshots in the spoiler.)

Spoiler 1000 BC T75, Monarch :

I didn't read the map spoiler, but I briefly opened a player's spoiler by mistake. Given the mentions of Astronomy and Mansa Musa, I suspect that we are starting on a continent with only Musa, and need Astronomy to reach the other civs.

When I play a Nobles' Club game, I don't use the default city names. This is now stupid, because I will have a Roman Empire with no city named Rome. The name of my capital will be Fertile Land, because of the corn and flood plains.

4000 BC T0. Give Archery to barbs. Settle in place Fertile Land, find a sheep in 2nd ring. Begin to build Worker, research Agriculture. Move my Warrior southeast. T1. Move Warrior onto stone. T5. Capital expands borders, annexes 2nd ring (with sheep, west corn), sees coast to north, silver to northwest, Mansa Musa's Skirmisher to southwest. My game would end if Musa declares war and walks his Skirmisher into my undefended capital, but we have peace. T8. Someone founds Buddhism. T9. Learn Agriculture (for corn), begin Animal Husbandry (for sheep). 3520 BC T12. Complete a Worker, who moves to the west corn. Begin a Warrior. I want a Settler, but I need a Warrior to watch for barbs before I settle a 2nd city. T17. Someone founds Hinduism. Complete a farm on the west corn. A barb Lion slays my Warrior by the east coast. Lion (2.00) attacked my Warrior (2.16) with 59.4% chance for Lion to win; my Warrior had more strength (by fortifying in a forest), but had been wounded by another Lion.

In T17, I am 3 turns from Animal Husbandry. I count wrong, believe that I need 3 turns to move my Worker to the sheep. T19. My Worker reached the sheep in only 2 turns, and now must waste a turn (to wait for Animal Husbandry). T20. Learn Animal Husbandry, begin the sheep pasture. My next techs will be The Wheel (road) and Pottery (cottage). Complete a Warrior, begin another Warrior. T22. Fertile Land reaches city size 3, switches from Warrior to Settler. T23. Move Warrior onto the silver to watch for barbs. T28. Learn the Wheel. T30. Complete a Settler. 2720 BC T32. Complete a Warrior at Fertile Land, who goes scouting; begin a Warrior. Settle my 2nd city Iris's Rainbow (near silver and crab); it steals the west corn and begins a Work Boat. T34. Someone founds Judaism. T35. Mansa Musa still hasn't converted to any religion. Complete a Warrior, who stays to defend Fertile Land; begin a Warrior. T37. Learn Pottery. My only Worker begins to build cottages. T38. Complete a Warrior, who moves south toward the stone; begin a Settler. T44. Complete a Settler, begin a Worker. 2200 BC T45. Settle my 3rd city Aither Desert (on the stone). It begins a Warrior. I want Warriors from Aither Desert and Settlers or Workers from Fertile Land.

In T45, I have 3 cities. I can see Mansa Musa's border 2 tiles southwest of my silver. I had wanted to grab the silver before Musa, so I put it in the 1st ring of Iris's Rainbow. I am missing a mine for my silver. To connect the stone under Aither Desert, I need to learn Masonry, and to finish the road from Aither Desert to Fertile Land. With the stone and my Industrious trait, I want to build the Pyramids in Fertile Land. I also need Bronze Working to chop forests toward the Pyramids. I am researching Bronze Working (to reveal copper), and will research Mysticism (for a Monument in Iris's Rainbow), then Masonry.

T47. Mansa Musa adopts Slavery. T49. Learn Bronze Working, see copper 5 tiles east, 1 south, of Aither Desert. Begin Mysticism, because I want a Monument in Iris's Rainbow. T54. Learn Myscticism, begin Masonry. Iris's Rainbow grows an angry citizen. Complete the silver mine but need a road to connect it and fix the anger. T55. Begin Stonehenge (30 turns) at Aither Desert. T58. Learn Masonry; the stone under Aither Desert now boosts Stonehenge (now 7 turns). I next want Hunting and Archery, because I want Archers. There are copper and horses to my east, but I am far from connecting them, so I can build neither Axemen nor Chariots. 1600 BC T60. Musa settles a city 5 tiles west of my Aither Desert, displacing my Warrior. I wanted to settle there, but will take the spot south of Aither Desert. T61. Learn Hunting. Complete a Settler and begin the Pyramids at Fertile Land. T62. Complete a Monument and begin the Great Wall at Iris's Rainbow. I now have 3 cities building 3 stone wonders. Revolt to adopt Slavery. 1440 BC T64. "Stonehenge has been built in a faraway land!" I would have completed Stonehenge in 2 turns. Aither Desert switches to a Worker. Also settle my 4th city Green Water (south of Aither Desert). T65. Learn Archery. Get 99 gold from failing Stonehenge; raise my science rate from 70% to 100%. T67. Iris's Rainbow grows an angry citizen, but then I sacrifice 3 of its 6 citizens to hurry the Great Wall. 1280 BC T68. Complete the Great Wall at Iris's Rainbow.

Musa's Skirmisher returns, from east to west. The Skirmisher has squeezed between 2 mountains and is now in the neutral corridor between my cities of Aither Desert and Green Water. T69. I accept Musa's offer to open borders, so the Skirmisher doesn't need the neutral corridor. Musa has only 2 cities. I have 4. T70. Cancel my forest chops and hurry the Pyramids (city size 7 to 4). 1160 BC T71. Complete the Pyramids at Fertile Land. Would use the Pyramids to adopt Representation, but I have no angry citizens and no specialists, so I stay in Despotism. T74. Learn Iron Working. An iron is in the 2nd ring of Aither Desert (where I now begin a Monument). Another iron is 4 tiles east of Fertile Land.

1000 BC T75. Complete roads to my city Green Water and Musa's city Djenne. Musa knows Sailing but I don't, so I need a road to get trade routes. There is an angry citizen in Fertile Land, so I will adopt Representation when I begin the next session. My signs around Fertile Land mark partial work: "1r" is 1 turn into a road, "2c" is 2 turns into a forest chop. My demographics are 2nd in food (but only 1 below 1st in food), 5th in hammers, and 1st in commerce. I will send a Warrior into Mali to measure Musa's land and check for other civs. Espionage ratio with Musa is 284/276 (him/me), as if Musa never met other civs but put all his espionage points on me. If Musa is low of land, I might want to stay at peace; settle the land to my east; connect the iron, copper, horses, and marble; build more wonders; and aim for a Cultural Victory.

 

[krikav]

I replayed the opening a few times with the intent of trying out a more lean and peacefull approach.

Spoiler T234 :

Think it was the third time through the opening that I got Mansa to found judaism, which was kind of needed for what I had in mind.
Doing Oracle->CoL here. No clue why Mansa still haven't settled the stone yet.
Early tech was agri->TW->BW->Pottery. I think TW makes for a faster silver town, and the worker can choose either to chop or to mine silver, I empasised commerce obviously to reach PH+writing in time, so BW first wouldnt have helped much.
Alot of cottages early too.
Special thanks to Mansa who didn't feel like taking the stone spot for ages.

Chopping out pyramids.

Up at Music. That barb galley ofcourse turned around and smashed my clams, than hanged around there for ages. I think I got MC from Mansa for Music 5-6 turns later and I could get out a trireme.

Bulbing Philosophy. I did a 5-pop whip for GLib a while later.

Chopped out sistine. I also finished Parthenon in Cumae (stone-town)

I think I did some bad and greedy trading with mansa, so I couldn't really lib astro, so I had to resort to libbing MT. Met Shaka a while later with a caravel and got gunpowder from him though. Self-teching astro took 10-12 turns and was very annoying.
I was terribly busying building temples everywhere, so the few cities that where done with their 3 tempes and built cuirs where few. So I held out for the longest time, but the turn I saw Mansa got gunpowder I declared on him, taking Djenne and depriving him of iron, so he didn't get cuirs. A few muskets in Timbuktu/Kumbesaleh and that was costly, but I had enough units it seems.
I wanted to let him keep Ravenna a while longer, possibly letting Shaka take it, but when it got into revolt I couldn't resist.

Overview once he was gone. 3 turns later I get a GArtist, so I do a revolt to free market for 1 turn and hold out for the next person from Rome about 12 turns later for the first GA aside from Taj.
The music artist I settled In Medilinijm almost right away.

Doing some serious GP-points here!
I regret doing moai/shrine here, as I got a GProphet later on which delayed me abit.

The GProphet from Antium paired with a saved up artist and did a second GA which generated a GEng. Not great. :|
Starved out a final GArtist in antium though, had I gotten a GProphet there at 10% odds again it would have taken about 5 turns longer reaching legendary.

Long time since I tried to do a proper cultural victory, I had forgotten how much micro it was involved spreading religion and doing all temples.
Pyramids helped alot, first rep for the research and then also universial suffrage to get the final Cathedrals in the 3 core cities without having to whip them down. And prior to that temples in some stray cities that where not ready to whip them out.
I would have gone into enmancipation sometime too, had I gotten democracy in a trade, but they left me in the dust before that could happen.
Growing the cottages around Mediolanum faster would have helped alot I think.

 

[shakabrade]

Deity to 1380AD

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

After I met everyone and got those connections, I went on to build an Oxford and did so around 800AD. By that time my lead was still huge and I decided to Lib something bigger. Since there is no peace guaranteed with Shaka and I prefer military VC, I libbed Rifling for the Cavs. Guilds were gotten from the trade and Knights were prebuilt to be upgraded to Cavs. I never wanted to conquer Mansa as he traded with me like crazy and I would never be able to get remotely useful output from 5 cities compared to him. He is the best in the game for that. And I also knew he would peacevassal to me when I get enough power. But everyone else hated my Mansa. To help me with the upgrades, I assigned a bunch of merchants and got GM from GPP and the other GM from the Economics race. Having Mansa trading everything really helped, but the other AIs were useful as well. I thought that Taj is definitely mine, but I somehow lost it to Shaka?!

Spoiler :

As expected when I had built 1.2 Mansa's power, he peacevassaled. That put me on the hate map, but I also got to tell Mansa what to reasearch, which is really huge. Notice Shaka's fist in the air.



To be on the safe side, I kept my Cavs at home waiting for the Shaka's Dow. My Cavs would obliterate his forces wherever he landed and then I would find some small city somewhere and gift it for peace. That was the contigency plan. But what I actually wanted was to take more land. Hence the Communism right after the Rifling and MT.
I located Shaka's main navy and, fortunately, he went for Gandhi. That was really great. I had 6 galleons and some frigates, and also went on to attack Gandhi. I get the land and Shaka will like me.


This war was slow.


Really slow. But I did not want to sacrifice the tech rate by accelerating the military buildup as I already realized I had no chance fighting Shaka without high tech Army. I needed tanks simply because they can attack twice and bombers to make him into a soft cream. At least that was the plan. There was no way of me going military VC without fighting Shaka because he already held portion of land needed for domination.


I really do not want to deal with this.


Not so useful picture, but the suspense was high as I feared that I could lose a lot here.


Tech is still looking good.


This was really lucky. I lost too many units before this city, but in the end it equilized to be more normal 1.5 Cavs per city.


Bye bye Gandhi, and OH, I can give this totally commerce city to Mansa! Yeah baby!


Proof that I did that. And notice that I have begged small gold from Shaka for 10T of peace. I thought that Shaka with his army will find a target before he could target Mansa and consequently me.



With most of the cities coming out of revolt, I cannot delay the GA any further (GSpy + GS). Need those hammers for units and need that commerce to get to Tanks and Bombers. Mansa is teching really nicely with almost no cities.

I am done with the game, but I'll stop here.

 

[shakabrade]

@krikav
You probably went to culture to practice it for GOTM or to save RL time... When did you decide to go for culture? Did you need to kill Mansa in the late game to get there faster?

 

[krikav]

Begging to give the hot-heads 10 turns to figure out someone else that needs to die is a super useful tool that alot of people should use more often.
Mansa got alpha somewhat early in my game, and I did some quick check and tried and got sailing from him, that was super nice at that point because I could connect that city on the eastern shore.

 

[shakabrade]

Spoiler :

Begging to give the hot-heads 10 turns to figure out someone else that needs to die is a super useful tool that alot of people should use more often.
Mansa got alpha somewhat early in my game, and I did some quick check and tried and got sailing from him, that was super nice at that point because I could connect that city on the eastern shore.

It is kind of an abuse, but I can live with it, I intentionally left Gandhi alive for a long time just to keep the Shaka at war with someone else while I was teching but the problem with that is that he makes even more units when in war. Never sure if such moves backfire or not, but they help you not die immediately. Ok, on this map, he would need to be able to do the naval invasion, and the AI is incredibly bad with that.

It is nice to have Mansa tech Alphabet early as you can focus more on the Aesthetics - Literature - Music line and here it means you can start building some failgold a bit earlier. Yeah, that eastern city was costly and I connected it with a road before Sailing, I think, at least. What I did here and normally don't do is beg Mansa for 3 techs, And I got all of them. Meditation, Priesthood and Monotheism, I think. Separated by some 20ish turns. Definitely something worth considering. There was a thread I read recently on begging and it gave me an idea to try more.

 

[krikav]

@krikav
You probably went to culture to practice it for GOTM or to save RL time... When did you decide to go for culture? Did you need to kill Mansa in the late game to get there faster?

Spoiler :

Prompted by your nice start, I replayed the opening and it was somewhere there I figured I would give culture a try.
I did end up going culture in a recent BOTM just to save RL time, and that got me abit interested.
It's a VC that I have ignored for a long time and I think I do need abit more practice to have it in my arsenal.
There are some really nice and counter-intuitive things to consider, that commerce is worth zero in all cities except 3 toward the endgame is pretty gamechanging and forces some rethinking.

There was no need to kill mansa really. I screwed up in the lib-race, giving him too much stuff and forcing me to take something that I could so I took MT, and with that I built some HAs/Cuirs in the cities that where done with temples/missionaries and didn't really have much other things to do.

Hard to tell if it slowed me down or not. Once his cities where out of revolt they made it much easier to keep 100% slider, but I also lost some time when building units, so don't know.
Couldn't trade anything with him. He was teching like a beast with his 4 cities (Think his GLH helped) he also stole a pair of techs from me before I could swing them to him.
Later he was hated by shaka/Mao who I did not want to upset!

Regarding your game:

Spoiler :

Shaka built statue of liberty in my game, which was new. Highly un-shaka-like. His land was loaded with resources though, he had most of what we could give him, and he was really big.

First time I played the game I did meet some of the AIs, and I couldn't believe our luck when we had Gandhi there with a huge island of his own. I did upgrade 12 CR3 prets to grenadiers and was about to ship them.
But... If you take mansa as a Vassal, doesn't it make abit of sense to buddy up with Gandhi as well? Not sure if it could been as safe/efficent to go after say... Brennus or WvO though.

 

[shakabrade]

Spoiler :

Prompted by your nice start, I replayed the opening and it was somewhere there I figured I would give culture a try.
I did end up going culture in a recent BOTM just to save RL time, and that got me abit interested.
It's a VC that I have ignored for a long time and I think I do need abit more practice to have it in my arsenal.
There are some really nice and counter-intuitive things to consider, that commerce is worth zero in all cities except 3 toward the endgame is pretty gamechanging and forces some rethinking.

There was no need to kill mansa really. I screwed up in the lib-race, giving him too much stuff and forcing me to take something that I could so I took MT, and with that I built some HAs/Cuirs in the cities that where done with temples/missionaries and didn't really have much other things to do.

Hard to tell if it slowed me down or not. Once his cities where out of revolt they made it much easier to keep 100% slider, but I also lost some time when building units, so don't know.
Couldn't trade anything with him. He was teching like a beast with his 4 cities (Think his GLH helped) he also stole a pair of techs from me before I could swing them to him.
Later he was hated by shaka/Mao who I did not want to upset!

Spoiler :

Indeed, culture is a different game. Basically, you need, ideally, 9 cities which are all able to build 3 temples, you need at least one GA Farm and that city can also be your Legendary city which will need a bit more culture bombing. You also want to go lean early and trade whatever can be traded as the early game is limiting your victory date. And teching stops at Nationalism, ideally Libbed. Cottages need to be developed, so, sharing tiles with the surrounding cities is important to develop all of them. Having Marble makes everything so much easier. This start was perfect for culture.

Regarding your game:

Spoiler :

Shaka built statue of liberty in my game, which was new. Highly un-shaka-like. His land was loaded with resources though, he had most of what we could give him, and he was really big.

First time I played the game I did meet some of the AIs, and I couldn't believe our luck when we had Gandhi there with a huge island of his own. I did upgrade 12 CR3 prets to grenadiers and was about to ship them.
But... If you take mansa as a Vassal, doesn't it make abit of sense to buddy up with Gandhi as well? Not sure if it could been as safe/efficent to go after say... Brennus or WvO though.

Spoiler :

It would make some sense if Shaka was avoidable, but since I thought that he could cap his whole continent, I decided that I needed much more production to fight him. This whole game is about beating Shaka or not dying to him. My Shaka, and probably all Shaka's in all other attempts was very strong and was teching faster and faster. Maybe even he would have taken Gandhi out or at least crippled him enough that I could not really trade with him. Gandhi's land was really fantastically developed and poorly defended. I could not resist and had the units. On the other hand, I could have taken out China (totally opposite side of the world) beforehand but then I would need to go for Willem who capped to Shaka or to Brennus, who was totally advanced with tech and had units. So, I was not ready and had no way to project force so far. Maybe if Shaka attacked Brennus instead of Gandhi, I could have piggybacked and taken Celtic land, but that would have also made me a land target of Shaka before I am ready to fight him. Later in the game I do engineer events to happen to make a safe passage for me to win.

 

[Kernigh]

Too early for me to read the spoilers of other players.

Spoiler 200 BC T107, Monarch :

To recap, I met Mansa Musa; won the Great Wall in 1280 BC T68; won the Pyramids in 1160 BC T71. I now have 4 cities; Musa has 2 cities. I might build more wonders and aim for a Cultural Victory.

In 1000 BC T75, I know Archery and Iron Working, and am researching Writing. (Musa knew Writing by T69, when we opened borders.) I am missing Sailing, so I can't build the Great Lighthouse. I am missing the techs after Mysticism, so I can't build the Oracle, nor the Hagia Sophia, nor the Apostolic Palace. After I get Writing, I want to research Mathematics and build the Hanging Gardens. Then I want Currency (for the trade route), then I might run from Aesthetics to Music. I might connect marble before I get Music and build the Sistine Chapel. In 1000 BC T75, I revolt to adopt Representation (with the Pyramids). I don't want to research Monarchy, because I have Representation and I don't see wine.

In 975 BC T76, as I restore my government, a barb Archer appears just outside my borders, 4 tiles east and 1 north of my capital Fertile Land. This might be my 1st game where I completed the Great Wall, which closes my borders (on this continent) to barbarians. I can now ignore the barb Archer, who can't enter my culture to pillage my mines and cottages.

In 825 BC T82, I want to settle a city by cow and copper. The 2nd barb Archer would raze the city, but I have the Great Wall.

I go ahead and settle my 5th city Vulcan.

The game teleports the barb Archer, who is now 2 tiles west of Vulcan, on the wrong side of a mountain. (My "I" signs show a route to spread irrigation after I learn Civil Service.) The barb is now in the neutral tiles between Aither Desert and Green Water. (These tiles are in the 2nd rings of both cities, but neither city has expanded borders.) The barb might move west and annoy Musa.

Mansa Musa of Mali rolled an unfair start. He is stuck on a small peninsula west of my capital, while I have so much empty land to my east. His 2 cities reach all his resources. I expect to get the iron (in the 2nd ring of my Aither Desert, and the 3rd ring of Musa's Djenne). Musa has room for 2 more cities (with no more resources), but might send Settlers east through my open borders. I want to grab the best resources to my east before Musa does.

In 700 BC T87, I learn Mathematics and begin an Aqueduct in Fertile Land. I need an Aqueduct to begin the Hanging Gardens. Because I want the Hanging Gardens, I can't build Settlers in Fertile Land. In 650 BC T89, I begin a Settler at Iris's Rainbow. This one goes east.

In 500 BC T95, I settle my 6th city Demeter Forest (east coast, pigs and horses in 1st ring, marble in 2nd ring). My science rate falls to 40% (and later to 30%). I made a road to bring the Settler and connect the horses to my capital. (I still don't know Sailing, can't sail the horses along the coast.) A pair of Workers had completed the road under the big one turn ago, just in time to move my Settler, and now begin the pig pasture. T95 is also when I complete my 1st Granary (it's in Vulcan), and when I hurry the Hanging Gardens at Fertile Land. In 475BC T96, I watch the video of the Hanging Gardens, and I see Musa's Worker repairing his wheat. (The teleported barb Archer had pillaged the wheat farm and the road.)

In 425 BC T98, someone founds Confucianism. It's Mansa Musa! Next turn, he converts to Confucianism and sends his missionary toward me.

In 400 BC T99, Iris's Rainbow expands borders to the 3rd ring. This reveals the Confucian holy city of Kumbi Saleh; I can see it from my culture 2 tiles northeast. (My Archer on the silver hill can't see that far.) I also learn that the teleported barb had pillaged Musa's horse, and Musa hasn't repaired it. I have enough espionage to see that Musa is researching Alphabet, but I expect to lose this info as Musa builds Courthouses for more espionage points.

In 350 BC T101, "The Venerable Bede has completed his greatest work, The Most Powerful Civilizations in the world!" Out of 7 civs, I rank 4th and Musa ranks 6th. This is a surprise; my army of 3 Archers, 1 Chariot, 7 Warriors doesn't look so powerful.

In 300 BC T103, I settle my 7th city Trailokya (near iron between Fertile Land and Demeter Forest). This is the last copper or iron on our continent, so Musa is now stuck with no copper nor iron. Musa has not sent any Settler east (across my culture), and I now rule all the best eastern city sites. Musa has 3 cities; I have 7 cities. The continent has room for 3 to 5 more coastal cities; 3 of them would have seafood. I don't see any islands.

In 200 BC T107, Mansa Musa has Alphabet and we can trade techs. In the next session, I will try to get Sailing from Musa, learn Currency, and move toward researching Music.

 

[Kernigh]

Spoiler 1380 AD T198, Monarch :

To recap, I met Mansa Musa and built some wonders. I used the Great Wall to teleport a barb Archer toward Musa; the barb pillaged Musa's wheat and horse. My wonders so far are the Great Wall (T68), Pyramids (T71), Hanging Gardens (T96). I have 7 cities; Musa has 3.

It is 200 BC T107 and Musa now has Alphabet, so we can begin to trade techs. Musa wants Mathematics; can research Meditation, Monotheism, Monarchy, Aesthetics, Currency, Horseback Riding, Metal Casting, Compass; will trade Polytheism, Sailing, Alphabet. Those are the only techs in my foreign advisor screen, but I deduce that Musa also knows Priesthood and Code of Laws (because he founded Confucianism and adopted Caste System). Musa's economy is about the same size as my economy (going by the GNP graph), but Musa is more advanced than me.

I wait 3 turns to finish Currency before I trade techs. I get Currency and Musa gets Monotheism in 125 BC T110. On the same turn, Musa opens the trade table to offer his Polytheism + 130 gold for my Mathematics. I want Sailing. I negotiate and accept his Polytheism + Sailing + 20 gold for my Math. With Sailing, I begin my national Moai Statues in Green Water. I also sell my spare corn to Musa for 1 gold per turn. I begin researching Aesthetics at 20% science. 1 turn later, I get Mansa's Code of Laws for my Sailing, and begin Chichen Itza in Iris's Rainbow. I also settle my 8th city.

The new city is Ocean of Heaven (8th, 100 BC T111, with fish, whale, silver in 2nd ring). I also need to settle the northeastern "X" tile, because if I don't, then Musa might settle and steal the silver or marble in his 1st ring. T111, when I settle of Ocean of Heaven, is also when I connect the marble. T111 is also when I get wheat.

My culture steals the wheat from Musa! This is the only wheat on our continent; Musa loses the wheat again soon after he reconnected it (after the teleported barb pillaged it). I am surprised that one of my cities reaches the wheat tile. My Aither Desert has 2nd-ring borders and can't reach the wheat. My capital Fertile Land has 4th-ring borders, so the wheat must be in the 4th ring. (I would have guessed 5th ring.) A new city might fit on the "X", 2 tiles north of the wheat, but I don't want to settle so close to Musa's border.

In 50 AD T117, my northeastern "X" becomes Mercuria (9th city, so Musa can't settle and steal the silver or marble). Each of Ocean of Heaven and Mercuria need some culture to expand borders to reach a fish in the 2nd ring. I can't spread religion, so I build Monuments for culture. Mercuria steals the marble from Demeter Forest, and Ocean of Heaven will get a forest chop. If I can get 2 forest chops, I would build a Library, not a Monument; but each city has only 1 forest. (I did build a Library with 2 forest chops in Demeter Forest, my only city to get a Library before a Granary. That Library did annex the marble.)

I want more wonders for a Cultural Victory. There are 2 big groups of wonders: the 1st group at Aesthetics to Music in the tech tree, and the 2nd group at Electricity to Mass Media. In my 11th regular game, I played as Tokugawa of Japan, built most of the 1st group, but lost the 2nd group to Elizabeth of England. I raced Elizabeth to a Cultural Victory. I'm not sure, but Elizabeth might have won 2 turns before me! We aborted the race, because Elizabeth built the United Nations, where I luckily grabbed a Diplomatic Victory. In this Augustus game, I approach the 1st group of wonders. I will skip the Statue of Zeus (missing ivory) and Shwedagon Paya (missing gold), but I want (from least to most) the Parthenon, the Great Library, and the Sistine Chapel.
Musa learns Aesthetics in T117, a turn before I learn it in T118. I switch Green Water from the Moai Statues to the Parthenon. Musa turns away from Music and begins Horseback Riding, while I begin Literature to (Great Library). I need a Library before the Great Library, but Fertile Land would finish its Library 2 turns after I get Literature; so I whip the slaves and hurry the Library in T118, then produce Wealth until 175 AD T122, when I begin the Great Library (which gets most of my forest chops).

I finish the Great Library (250 AD T125, Fertile Land), then the Parthenon (300 AD T127, Green Water). I am 1st to Music (400 AD T131) and finish the Sistine Chapel (425 AD T312, Fertile Land). I had accumulated 2 Great Engineers by having both the Pyramids and the Hanging Gardens in Fertile Land. I used the 1st Great Engineer to hurry the Sistine Chapel, and will save the 2nd Great Engineer for another wonder. My 3rd great person is the free Great Artist from Music, whom I settle in Iris's Rainbow.

I trade Music to Musa to get gold, Priesthood, and Monotheism (Organized Religion). After I have the Sistine Chapel, I take 2 turns of anarchy to convert to Confucianism and adopt Organized Religion. (I refuse to adopt Caste System, but stay in Slavery to whip more wonders.) I have Confucianism in 4 of my 9 cities. I finish my national Moai Statues (540 AD T137, Green Water) and finally Chichen Itza (560 AD T138, Iris's Rainbow). I was slow to build Chichen Itza, because it got no forest chops.

Someone had founded Christianity, but I try for the last 2 religions. I research Meditation, then Philosophy and found Taoism (600 AD T140, Vulcan). I research Theology, trade it to Musa to get Monarchy, then research Divine Right and found Islam (940 AD T157, Mercuria).

In 820 AD T151, "Machiavelli has completed his greatest work, The Most Powerful Civilizations in the World!" Among 7 civs, Musa is 6th and I am 7th (last). Musa has Horse Archers and Longbowmen. I only have a few Archers, a Chariot, and a bunch of worthless Warriors. I can make Spearmen to defend against Horse Archers, but I can't make any medieval army units. (I forget about my unique unit, the Praetorian.) I continue to ignore war techs as I run through Paper and Education to Liberalism.

I complete Angkor Wat (1040 AD T164, Iris's Rainbow), the Spiral Minaret (1110 AD T171, Fertile Land), and the University of Sankore (1170 AD T177, Green Water). In 1440 AD T174, Musa offers his Calendar for my Philosophy; I agree to give Philosophy (because I have Angkor Wat), but negotiate and take Metal Casting (plus World Map), not Calendar. I use Metal Casting to add Forges to my cities. I take 253 gold for failing the Hagia Sophia (as I expect; I was late to Theocracy) as I approach Liberalism.

In 1220 AD T182, "Your Civilization is the first to discover Liberalism! Choose a free technology..."

These choices are bad! I want Nationalism, but I forgot that I need Civil Service for Nationalism. My choices are Feudalism, Civil Service, Drama, Alphabet, Calendar, Horseback Riding, Compass, Construction, Machinery, Gunpowder. Musa already know most of these; he only misses Compass and Gunpowder. I choose Gunpowder, because it costs the most beakers, and because Musketmen can defend my cities better than Archers. I trade Gunpowder to get Musa's Civil Service (plus Drama, map, 50 gold). I later give Divine Right (plus 25 gold) to get Musa's Machinery and Alphabet, so I can research Printing Press after Nationalism.

Mansa Musa completes his 1st wonder, the Apostolic Palace; I'm so happy that I vote in 1360 AD T196 to give the AP residency to Musa. (The other civs with Theology might have missed the AP by wasting their hammers on Hagia Sophia.) I complete Versailles (1370 AD T197) and the Taj Mahal (1380 AD T198). I enter my 1st golden age and will change civics.

In demographics, I rank 4th in food (172 million bushels; rival best 418, average 207, worst 73). This is dangerously low. My civ might be too small to win by space or via the United Nations. I would need to either get my Cultural Victory, or go to war to stop someone else's victory. I rank 2nd in land, and might get more food after I settle my 3 coastal "X" spots; it would raise my city count from 9 to 12 and add 1 fish. Musa never sent a Settler east, is stuck at 3 cities.
I know almost nothing about the civs on the other continents. I almost never check the list of top 5 cities, but this list is most useful now.

The 1st city, size 13, stands out because it has the most holy shrines of Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. It also has Stonehenge and the Statue of Zeus. The guy (or gal) who leads this civ probably started with Mysticism, got his capital stuck on Stonehenge, and founded all 3 early religions in his capital, before he had a 2nd city.

The 2nd city, size 16, has most of the game's other wonders: the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus, the Oracle, Hagia Sophia, the Mausoleum of Mausolos, Shwedagon Paya. This guy (or gal) might have lost the race to Buddhism, then learned Priesthood (Oracle) and took the Oracle's free tech, Metal Casting (Colossus). I guess that Oracle Guy might have founded Christianity. Because both cities were founded in 4000 BC, I am sure that Shrine Guy and Oracle Guy are from different civs.

I have my Fertile Land at 3rd and Iris's Rainbow at 4th, then Musa has Timbuktu with his Apostolic Palace at 5th. The only wonders that I can't find are the Temple of Artemis and Notre Dame. I don't know, but I suspect that Oracle Guy has Notre Dame, and someone else has Artemis. If Oracle Guy reaches Electricity, he might race me for the Cultural Victory. I am aiming for Democracy and the Statue of Liberty, but after that, I want to get Optics and find the civs on the other continents. Or they might find me?