Nobles' Club 373: Mao Zedong of China

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Mao Zedong of China, whom we last played in NC 321; we last played the Chinese under Qin Shi Huang in NC 361. The Chinese start with Agriculture and Mining.

• Traits: Mao Zedong is Expansive and Protective. Expansive adds +2
  
  to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Protective gives all Archery and Gunpowder units a free City Garrison I (+20% City Defence) and Drill I (+1 First Strike chance) promotion, as well as a +100% bonus to Walls and Castles.
• The UB: The Pavilion, a Theatre with +25%. The bonus isn't going to do anything if you're not generating massive amounts of culture in the first place, but when you are it can turn the tide of a high-stakes cultural battle in your favor.
• The UU: The Cho-Ko-Nu, a Crossbow with +2 First Strike instead of +1 FS, and Collateral Damage up to 60% which also affects Siege units. Ever wanted to rain death down upon your enemies' flanks while raining death down upon the enemies directly in front of you? Yeah. Aside from a lack of ways to deal with city defences these guys are walking siege units that mow down Melee units and don't care overly much about anything else. Less than most Knights would fear a Pike, at any rate.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps to give AIs nearby strategic resources.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC Mao Zedong 373 Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Moving away from an agriculture resource when you start with Agriculture tech feels bad, but plains hill capitol over second ring dry rice is definitely something to consider. I guess move warrior 1N(W?) to scout that area, see if there's any I'unno Corn or Wheat up there and if so settle the PH, otherwise...maybe still settle PH anyway? Not sure what the best play is here.

What do the experts think?

 

[Izuul]

My default would be to settle the PH so I would move the warrior somewhere to the east to see if there's any reason not to do that. I guess SE onto the rice.

 

[Thrasybulos]

My fog-gazing abilities aren't exactly top-notch... but it seems to me that we have a FP 2S 1W, and another one 2W?
The latter would be kept with a PH settle, but not the former.
So the PH settle (vs SIP) would lose the Rice (granted, it's a dry Rice, but still...), a FP, fresh water access, another two river cottage tiles (2S & 2S1E), and the option to forego AH for a while by mining the Pigs. And be a turn later.

I know that PH center tiles are great, but isn't that a bit much?

 

[Izuul]

Fresh water isn't a major consideration with expansive and a rice that will get connected at some point. That's already +4 health. The PH settle also allows for a 10T worker (11 including the 1t to move).

Researching AH isn't too bad for China since they have amazing starting techs.

SIP is definitely a long-term play banking on a big bureau cap down the road whereas the PH cap should give a much faster start in terms of expansion.

 

[soundjata]

Settling on the PH has the slight inconvenience of idling the worker for a few turns before AH is ready (on deity).
Might be a case for settler first.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Moving away from an agriculture resource when you start with Agriculture tech feels bad, but plains hill capitol over second ring dry rice is definitely something to consider. I guess move warrior 1N(W?) to scout that area, see if there's any I'unno Corn or Wheat up there and if so settle the PH, otherwise...maybe still settle PH anyway? Not sure what the best play is here.

What do the experts think?

I don't think dry rice qualifies as a food resource.

But I'm still inclined to SIP. Gets more river tiles. Might move away from food by going 1NW. The difference between 10 and 12 turn worker is not huge either especially since AH takes a long time to research. I'm thinking just going BW right away and chop like a madman. Hopefully the tiles in the south are nice and will make tech decision more clear.

 

[a pen-dragon]

The difference between 10 and 12 turn worker

As I do not see a 3 tile for the SIP capital the difference would actually be between 10 or 15 turns, and this matters.

I agree with warrior SE.

For the capital the choice is difficult, but I would probably go on the PH. If the land there is bad a turn 1 SIP is always possible. I think the quicker start should allow to switch the capital later for bureau with a net benefit compared to SIP.

 

[sampsa]

For me 100% on ph. 4T earlier worker is massive, not only because of won workerT but also growing starts earlier.

 

[Tecumseh1]

T55 Demigod:

Warrior 1NW and stone! Went for the legendary stone settle. Could not resist it although PH seems OK too. AH->TW->BW. Now struggling to get to Masonry. Regret not going pottery earlier. Maybe AH->TW->Pot->Masonry->BW makes more sense if going for pyramids?

Went settler first in capital to grab second pig. Stayed at size 1 in second city, building 2 warriors and then a worker working 3 hammer tile. Looks like Pangaea style map so skipping archery. After getting BW finished 3rd settler with 1 chop. Managed to get the gold. Although maybe it's better to stay compact and cottage the southern floodplains? I'm a sucker for gold.

 

[AcaMetis]

T55 Demigod:

(Consider a spoiler tag for the screenshot:

[SPOILER][/SPOILER]

Blurring it doesn't really work all that well)

 

[Tecumseh1]

As I do not see a 3 tile for the SIP capital the difference would actually be between 10 or 15 turns, and this matters.

I agree with warrior SE.

For the capital the choice is difficult, but I would probably go on the PH. If the land there is bad a turn 1 SIP is always possible. I think the quicker start should allow to switch the capital later for bureau with a net benefit compared to SIP.

Right that's me not reading the map correctly. 14/15 < 10 that's very true.

 

[Tecumseh1]

(Consider a spoiler tag for the screenshot:

[SPOILER][/SPOILER]

Blurring it doesn't really work all that well)

Hmm I did "insert image" inside a spoiler tag. I just removed the pic for now.

 

[soundjata]

Deity T59

Spoiler :

Tech went hunting / archery / AH / TW / Pot / BW
We got bronze woopdeedoo!
And a patch of forests that need to go away to... clean the crime scene I think

Capitol went settler / worker / 2 archers / worker / settler
City 2 went archer / worker

So we got a huge army patrolling the borders (3 archers + 1 warrior)
a countless workforce (4 workers)
and an unlimited money machine (5 cottages)

I wonder how hard we should focus on making a barb city capture squad. (3 barb cities in sight, acting like ghostbusters)

I'm going to get bashed so much for the pigs in the second ring but eh... that city got a granary at least

 

[Tecumseh1]

Deity T59

Spoiler :

Tech went hunting / archery / AH / TW / Pot / BW
We got bronze woopdeedoo!
And a patch of forests that need to go away to... clean the crime scene I think

Capitol went settler / worker / 2 archers / worker / settler
City 2 went archer / worker

So we got a huge army patrolling the borders (3 archers + 1 warrior)
a countless workforce (4 workers)
and an unlimited money machine (5 cottages)

I wonder how hard we should focus on making a barb city capture squad. (3 barb cities in sight, acting like ghostbusters)

I'm going to get bashed so much for the pigs in the second ring but eh... that city got a granary at least

Very nice! I would not have thought going archery here, but seems to be working out.

What was reason you didn't put Guangzhou 1N for pig? For more cottages?

 

[soundjata]

T86

Spoiler :

After BW, went masonry (naturally) then writing
Grabbed the pyramids in Beijing (T75), which allowed a double civic switch (representation/slavery)
Just completed 2 libraries in Beijing / Shanghai and ready to research 'something'
Have 12 cottages for 5 cities.
Should plant a rice city #6 shortly.

Eastern barb city has been captured by Mali.
We are connecting copper but it's probably too late to get axemen action.
Khmer started plotting so maybe our antique archer trifecta will see some play.

Spoiler dont read if pcc :

Fortunately this is just a game and Shanghai city governor can decide to build a palace without risking incarceration

 

[chinemol]

just saw the palace being built in the pics I just uploaded. it's good to take brakes...
IMM T126

Spoiler :

played the opening twice. first time was death by lack of commerce
second time settled on stone. still, expanded quite a bit, the land and resources merited it
currently kind of up to date on tech, but huayna is plotting on me most likely. going for elephants either way. if he isn't, have to kill ramses culture wich took my FPs

 

[soundjata]

T105

Spoiler :

Good trades with MC (alpha, math, IW, ) as we raze 2 barb cities ( )

Engineering is near

Mansa magic is not working?

There are two absolute morons in this game: Capac and Varman.
Everyone is chilling in judaism but they plot against another

Shanghai is doing too many buildings at the same time Where is my scientist?

Stats

 

[chinemol]

just saw the palace being built in the pics I just uploaded. it's good to take brakes...
IMM T126

Spoiler :

played the opening twice. first time was death by lack of commerce
second time settled on stone. still, expanded quite a bit, the land and resources merited it
currently kind of up to date on tech, but huayna is plotting on me most likely. going for elephants either way. if he isn't, have to kill ramses culture wich took my FPs
View attachment 722056

View attachment 722057

View attachment 722058

1550s diplo win

Spoiler :

elepult against egypt went bad, he had maces. peace and 10 turn later push with a better organized stack did the job.
mansa peace vassaled after egypt surrendered
declared on inca, he was small but stubborn. took 2 cities, one was gifted back after capitulating
khemer was surprinsigly easy, usually he's very tough. he had an exclave with little culture so turn one of the war defenses went down and collateral decimated that little force
had bribed monty on dutch so when the AP vote came went for peace with monty to take out willem. no one supported me, had to gift tech for peace to monty. willem had lost a lot to monty, wiped out easy with cuirs cavs and medieval.
called vote for diplo win. with 4 vassals, it went through smoothly

overexpansion at the start paid off in terms of war production, but it was certainly a danger with such a commerce poor capital. forgot to say, built pyra and tgl, but couldn't work it out much due to lack of food. egypt had starved my southern front by culture flipping my flood plains

 

[soundjata]

T139

Spoiler :

Game is going on pretty smoothly.

T116 we get to engineering with the help of a GE bulb
(no Aesthetics required, thanks goodness. I had to personally research construction myself with my own beakers )

T122 the war prep is over and we invade Egypt while bribing in Feather Head.

T123

A few turns later the world is in Mayhem

T139 Final blow

There are 2 stacks pictured above.
We can also identify our GG, renamed from gustavus adolphus into "super ultra bombard mega splash"

Casualties of war:
- 1 Chokonu. Poor guy. He had favorable odds too

Ramses bro, barb cities were fiercer.


Bigger picture: time for important decisions.

Willem just libbed Astro, a very clever move.

We could get paper and optics in exchange for peace with Ramses (finish him in 10 turns.)
But if we get paper we won't be able to bulb chemistry.

Or we want nothing from him and just raze his last city asap? Let Monty take it?

Shanghai will finish brooding a GS next turn. Academy (+50/turn) or what?

Starve some city... Get another GP... Golden age something
(we are in rep-bureau-caste)

WHO is next?