Nobles Club CXXV - Qin

[Robert FIN]

Emperor NHNE, Cultural Victory 1770 AD

Spoiler :

Decided to SIP, used the stone and marble in 3rd city to wonderwhore: got all the early wonders except for GL and Colossus. Got a warrior up to WMII and stole 2 workers from Liz. Oracled CoL and spread confucianism to Stalin to get him to pleased. Funded contiuous 100% research by selling techs to backward civs (Liz, Stalin, Giggles) and failgold (and eventually building the wonders myself: winwin). Whenever Joao or Asoka became too threatening, I used my big brother Stalin to pick on them at the cost of a tech or 2.
Libbed Democracy, then stopped teching for 100% culture. Got 4 religions for my 9 cities, so all my 3 legendary cities got a stupa, cathedral, conf academy and mosque. First cultural victory for me

Fun fact: didn't lose a single unit.

Welcome to the forums, and congratulations for your victory !!!

 

[dalamb]

@Jarno: congrats on your first cultural win.

 

[Robert FIN]

I'd like to start playing the map monday, so I'm gonna ask what do you think about my plan to tech BW first! SiP. My reasons to those actions are explained earlier in this thread. Please!

 

[vogonpoet]

@Robert:

Spoiler :

I am not very good at CIV, but I think I went BW, TW, Pottery, Masonary, Writing, Oracle techs, Alphabet. I SIPed just so I could enjoy mining the banana. It was nice. I didn't revolt until my first settler was out though, so maybe I could have timed BW to come in later when the settler was done?

My own game is at turn 162/1020 AD:

Spoiler :

Wow, I really underestimated those ChoKoNuts. I went after Stalin, and it was good, but it feels like I could have gone for a more total war approach and opened another front. Instead I developed my land, grew my cities, and built up a pretty decent tech lead. So now I have just finished off Joe, and am considering my options, which seem to be:

A. Go to war with the Hindu block while making friends with my Buddist buddies.

Pros:
1. They are small and backwards
2. Diplomatically sensible option
Cons:
1. Gandhi and in particular Joao will continue to expand like beasts.

B. Tech Feudalism, go to war with Gandhi then Joao, try to cap them.
Pros:
1. The Buddist shrine in Dehli.
2. Potentially useful (?) vassals.
3. Gandhi at least will forgive me, especialy if I take a few of his perhipheral cities to liberate back to him once the war is over.
4. These two are my biggest rivals, therefore this is most likely move to win me the game.
Cons:
1. Joao will probably side with Gandhi immediately
2. The diplo situation makes it silly


I don't know, it feels like I should beat up on my friends and leave my enemies alone.

Whoever my next target is, I have some questions:
1. If I want to Chokonut in the age of longbows, I thought I should have some normal seige to bring down the cultural defense - would a stack of trebs make sense, or will catapults be better? I am really not good at working out the combat promotion options.

2. Considering my decent tech advantage, should I devote more of my resources to war now, hoping to cap Gandhi and Joao sooner?

I really feel this is where I suck at CIV - I open ok, get ahead, wipe out a neighbour, then procrastinate too long developing my land and let my other rivals back in the game. But this map has a LOT of land, so developing it feels like it makes sense. Suggestions anyone?

 

[Robert FIN]

@Robert:

Spoiler :

I am not very good at CIV, but I think I went BW, TW, Pottery, Masonary, Writing, Oracle techs, Alphabet. I SIPed just so I could enjoy mining the banana. It was nice. I didn't revolt until my first settler was out though, so maybe I could have timed BW to come in later when the settler was done?

Thanks! Seems like BW is fine then. And it doesn't matter if you're newbie, I am a noob too!

 

[TheMadFiddler]

I'd like to start playing the map monday, so I'm gonna ask what do you think about my plan to tech BW first! SiP. My reasons to those actions are explained earlier in this thread. Please!

I did BW first, but I did not SiP and my workers seemed to always have something to do, so I would think BW first is fine.

Spoiler :

After moving the warrior to the south hill, and seeing the wheat IIRC from there, I decided to go one south for the plains hill production bonus and save the banana for a second city.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Ugh ugh ugh ugh blegh.

Spoiler :

I Cho-Ko'd the hell out of Stalin until I was up to nine cities, then settled in for a nice culture victory. Things were going quite well - I had a strong tech lead and had just killed my research to boost culture - when Lizzie AP cheesed a Diplo victory. Holy crap that's annoying.

 

[FlyingSwan]

I don't understand the love for BW first? there are virtually no forests to chop.Im pretty sure I went wheel/pottery for early riverside cottages and to hook up the stone.Theres no need to slave if you have some good tiles to work,I liked the mined banana/riverside grassland hills/floodplain cottage with which you can grow to happy cap/get a decent tech rate and then go BW.

 

[MilesBeyond]

I don't understand the love for BW first? there are virtually no forests to chop.Im pretty sure I went wheel/pottery for early riverside cottages and to hook up the stone.Theres no need to slave if you have some good tiles to work,I liked the mined banana/riverside grassland hills/floodplain cottage with which you can grow to happy cap/get a decent tech rate and then go BW.

I didn't go the early BW route either, but I think there are two reasons why people would go for it:

1. Early BW means early Slavery. Since you can't chop for your cap, whipping becomes more important than ever for getting stuff out early.

2. Early BW means early IW, which on a mapscript like this is almost always a good thing. It also gets you well on your way to Machinery, which is your ultimate goal at this point.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@MilesBeyond.Hi.On point 1,I like to get the city to size 3 before building a settler,and you would want to get to this size to whip anyway so BW first doesnt make sense as the first tech.

on 2 IMO.Early alphabet equals early IW,which I try to get by turn 50 normal speed,after that trading math for IW is the way I usually go.I rarely tech IW unless Im Aztec or roman.On this NC were Qin,his UU needs machinery,I would suggest that to do a choku rush alpha is the fastest as it lets you trade for archery and IW.

anyway bad luck at being apostolic palaced to a loss.

 

[Aje]

Monarch/Normal NHNE

Hi guys.
I'm back from the dead and thought I give this NC game a shoot.
Thanks to the NC crew for choosing something other than the usual pangea.

I didn't plan on posting anything from my sloopy game, but I popped this GSpy 125BC and need some advice on the best way to use it.

Game so far & question on GSpy:

Spoiler :

I choose to SIP, because I didn't see any good reason not to. The PH was tempting, but not enough. Inital thoughts was wonderspaming to a cultural victory. The map seemed rich on food, but lacking of forests and happy Resources, which led made tech BW early nad then going to pottery for the granarys(not for the cottages).
The Close stone made me Think of pytamids/rep/SE powered by farms.

Anyway, we're at 125BC and have built 5 cities and the teching ok compared to the AI who seem to have the jungle flu. We have built the GW for barb defence and Oracled MC (for forges and tech trade value).

The GW has given us GPP towards GSpy and indeed a Gspy pops.

Should I: 1) Do a Spy mission to the tech leaders (Gandhi) capital? 2) Make him join a city where we later will build Academy (decent research while running rep) and using the EP Point on tech leader? 3) Start a golden age? 4) Other

Please also comment on city placement (Idea SE economy)

Spoiler :

Thanks to this forum

 

[WelshGandalf]

Darn you Nobles Club, I can’t resist playing the Chinese even though I’m in the middle of a GOTM…

@Aje Sorry I can't help, I never go much into the espionage side of the game. Maybe a golden age once the pyramids are complete? That way you can revolt into representation without anarchy.

@Robert FIN and others regarding starting tech.
Look at the start – what techs do you need to improve the land around you? Agriculture is clearly the main one. You might want to mine some hills (especially the bananas) early on too. But we already have both of these techs, which is quite a luxurious position to be in. You’ll want masonry at some point too but not really early on – it’s not a tile you’re likely to work. So I don’t think the first tech is that important here. Personally I went for the wheel – as it’s on the way to pottery (lots of riverside locations to put cottages down) and there’s always roads to build. Then I went for Bronze working, so I would have slavery available in time for 2-pop whipping at size 4, and also because the location of copper may influence where we settle.

Re: Cho-ku-nu rush
You can indeed oracle MC and then bulb machinery with a GS, and obtain IW and archery in whatever fashion you see fit. However another way is to self tech most stuff and bulb machinery with a great engineer, which can be gained from a forge and/or the pyramids. As we are industrious and have stone, it’s an attractive proposition so I went for it. I think it leads to a slower start date for building cho-ku-nus, but you have a better economy for building them & sustaining your economy.

So then, this is how the start went for me. Emperor, no events, up to 275AD.

Spoiler :

SIP, farmed corn, mined pigs & another hill, then cottaged the FP. Teched the wheel, BW, pottery, myst, masonry, writing, IW, half of alpha then traded it for IW, then MC.
2nd city went south for pigs/silver, 3rd went north onto the plains hill where it ran 4 cottages, the copper and a specialist. Never going to be a huge city but definitely helped the economy in the early days. 4th went east, 1S of iron.

Built Pyramids in capital around 925BC. Built forge there and ran an engineer, got my GE for bulbing machinery around 300BC, by which time, after trading for maths, I had also researched construction for catapults and currency was almost up too. So by the time CKN’s were being built I already had 4 catapults to get rid of cultural defence, 3 cities with forges/barracks and I was running police state to get those troops out even faster.

By 275AD I had razed 2 Russian cities, rebuilt one of them in a better location and taken 2 barb cities to the east. I’ve got about 400 gold and I’m still earning 15 a turn at 0% slider, I’m reluctant to tech anything else though as I fear I will need that money to keep the economy afloat as my troops go on the rampage. I’m torn between CoL (for courthouses) and Engineering (for faster troop movement, trebs and possibly the +2 for Notre Dame). Engineering is better but a lot more expensive than CoL. Maybe I’ll go for engineering and trade for CoL (which no-one has yet, but no-one has metal casting yet so I can give them that for it). Gonna start building up a secondary force to attack the Indians soon, and see just how far CKN’s plus some siege can take me.

 

[Robert FIN]

4000BC-3280BC

Birth of the Dragon Empire

Spoiler :

Chinese are united to one civilization under godlike leader Qin Shi Huang(di).

Chinese men decided to settle Beijing in the place:


Research is focusing on the secrets of The Wheel.

Beijing starts building Worker, we'll need it soon.

In 3640BC, TW is finished and Qin likes gold, so next in turn is Pottery. It contains the unlock of the most powerful building of the game, the Granary. Cottages r' fine too!

In 3600BC Stalin of Russia shows up. Must be cautious.


3400BC, Worker finished and sent to build a corn farm nearby Beijing. Warrior is next in queue.

3280BC Pottery finished.

What should I do next (in the game).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Aje:

Great Spy use:

1. The least imaginitive use is starting a Golden Age; for players who don't know anything about espionage and don't want to know; may as well select the No Espionage option.
2. Using a Great Spy to Infiltrate an nearby Civ or a technology leader is a great way to learn how to use BtS's espionage system; on normal speed infiltration provides 3000 espionage points against the target Civ; build up to a dozen Spies and perform various clandesine missions against the target Civ.
3. To really experience the power of the espionage system, after acquiring Alphabet set the espionage slider to the the max and keep it there; in this case Great Spies should construct Scotland Yard in high commerce cities which provides a +100% espionage multiplier.
4. Another idea is generate as many Great Spies as possible and settle them in the capital with Scotland Yard and eventually build a Jail and Intelligence Agency, the other espionage multipliers, both +50%; can also run Representation which adds 3B to the 3B they already produce.

Try a trojan aka trap city. This is a city usually no more than 3 plots from one's capital that is given to the AI. This allows a good distance discount. This city is usually used to steal technologies and influence civics and state religion.

Maximize the other espionage discounts:

1. Trade route to the target Civ -20% if player has trade route in target city
2. State Religion -15%, if target AI does not have same State Religion
3. State Religion Holy City -25%, this applies even when player and AI have the same State Religion
4. City culture 0 to -50% based on ratio of AI/player culture in the target city
5. Stationary Spy -10% per turn, -50% max
6. Espionage Point Spending 0 to -50% based on espionage accumulated against the AIs compared to their espionage spending

Check out the Espionage Article in the Civ4 War Academy.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Aje]

@Sun Tzu Wu:
Thanks for the long and informative advice.
I will try an espionage game later on, but I've heard that it works better on higher diificulties where the AI Techs faster (i'm playing this NC on Monarch).

In this game I was planing for a cultural victory and since I'm teching faster than the AI I'll probably settle the Gspy for a little extra science and culture. And the extra espionage won't hurt.

Later in the game:

Spoiler :

I'm up at about 1400AD and have been playing this Culture massing poorly. Will win in 75turns or so. I've keeped a good diplo game though, so the AI are waring eachother If I get bored with waiting out the culture I could go for a conquest/religous win, but that will also take a lot of time...

 

[Robert FIN]

My Monarch gameplay continues:

Woohoo, got old Imageshack back!!

3280BC-2560BC

The Age of Slavery Begins

Spoiler :

...

Tyrannic Qin heads next towards BW for Slavery.

When the corn farm was built, Workeer starts to build a cottage on the Floodplain.


Turn after Beijing had reached pop3, it starts training settler to make the Chinese Empire a little bigger.

Worker starts building farm to riverside grassland below the floodplain.

India !!


Worker moves to the hill to build a mine.


Look at this desert:


BW finished, next Masonry for Mids.

Mine finished, next Worker moves 1S to make a cottage.

In the last turn of the segment the settler was ready. I changed to Slavery.

Here's my (dot)map:




Where shall I move the settler to build a city?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Sun Tzu Wu:
Thanks for the long and informative advice.
I will try an espionage game later on, but I've heard that it works better on higher diificulties where the AI Techs faster (i'm playing this NC on Monarch).

In this game I was planing for a cultural victory and since I'm teching faster than the AI I'll probably settle the Gspy for a little extra science and culture. And the extra espionage won't hurt.

I agree that espionage is probably more effective at higher difficulty levels than monarch.

Setting the great spy is a really good idea. The earlier in the game its done, the more effectivec it becomes.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[soundjata]

@ Robert FIN: Any particular reason you decided against mining the Bananas?

 

[Robert FIN]

@ Robert FIN: Any particular reason you decided against mining the Bananas?

...nope ... I just thought that I'll be plantasing it anyways when I get Calendar.

 

[soundjata]

...nope ... I just thought that I'll be plantasing it anyways when I get Calendar.

In the meantime it is a stronger tile than a regular mine. Use it

Concerning your city #2

Spoiler :

I would advise 3N1E of Beijing. It has fresh water and allows a good amount of tile sharing with the capitol.
There isn't really much point going further north considering the kind of tiles you gain (plain and desert )