Noble's Club XII-Elizabeth Revisited!

[GGS]

1000 BC debriefing

It might be counted as a good sign, or two-city hubris, that I am not yet seeking advice from the community.

Spoiler :

Settling in place dictated York on the eastern copper so as not to waste a flood plain tile. As is my wont, if not addiction, the Great Wall was built in London. The four walkabout warriors brought in more than 250 Gold; have explored a lot of land meeting Zara Yaqob, Mansa Musa, Suryavarman II, Louis XIV while unusually remaining alive. The tech path was iffy. BW, Masonry, Agriculture, AH, Wheel, Mysticism (to expand York), Sailing, Pottery, IW, Hunting, Meditation. Leading in score the English Empire is really rather average.
The future? Well now, a southern expansion from York and an Iron city in the far west (working on both) seem rational, but The Oracle is a Siren song. With the GW and elephants I'm not too concerned about the badly placed horses.

Making haste slowly, is the current byword.

 

[Groogaroo]

Played a few more turns... currently @ 625 AD, things are going okay but I think I've got stuck into peaceful builder mode!

Previous reports
Update - Monarch Epic - 900BC

Update Monarch/Epic 625AD

Spoiler :

My tech path this round went... Currency > Code of Laws > Maths > Calender > Civilservice > Philosophy (bulbed) > Construction > Metal Casting > Machinery.

As you can see I got a little side tracked going through some military techs rather than staying on the education > Libralism path . I was planning a war against Zara with cats/maces but I don't think its really on after all, so it will have to wait until Red Coats.

I managed to grab all the southern sites I wanted allthough I'm feeling the pressure from sury (creative Git ) so desperatley need culture in a couple of my cities.

I feel I've lost focus a bit with this game, Were philosophical and I don't even have a dedicated GP farm Just yet , managed to grab a spot in the south with 2x Clam 1x Grassland Cow which will have to do for now. Guess I just got mesmerised by all the gems & Dye in the south!

My empire

The North

The South

Cities

Techs

Power

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Groog:

Spoiler :

You're definitely in "builder mode" . All of your cities are producing buildings! There's nothing wrong with this per se', but if you wanted an early war on someone you should have gone for elephants since you have them! Redcoats would work just fine too . It is kind of funny though - at the point in time where you are in my game, all cities were either producing military or recently captured so making forge/courthouse/barracks so that they could do so, with the exception of one city I think . You're in good shape though so whatever works!

 

[Groogaroo]

@ TMIT

Spoiler :

Yeah, I definatley got stuck in builder mode, I have 8 cities and only 1 of them is dedicated to building military ! The rest are all being cottaged up! I've definatley decided to go to war when rifling kicks in gives me time to get another military city up and running and build plenty of City Raiders for up grading.

 

[GGS]

540 AD debriefing

On balance, the developments have been favourable and the English have a short-term plan.

Spoiler :

The Iron city was built in the NW (although it is under some cultural pressure, and an elephant/copper city and a gems/dye city in the SE. The added techs were priesthood, polytheism, writing, alphabet, mathematics, construstion, aesthetics (for the Statue of Zeus in London) and HBR. The English have a modest tech lead without great trade availability. Eight workers are rebuilding the economy and currency is but a turn away.
The strategic appreciation is two-fold. The four neighbours have four different religions while the English have none so there is a great deal of free-floating annoyance directed every where but at London. The closest and weakest neighbour, Zara Yaqob, has no strategic resource other than horses. So I will eschew adopting a religion, build catapults and elephants, then liberate some Ethiopian cities.

A plan is a positive thing.

 

[KingMorgan]

Monarch/Normal to 25BC

Spoiler :

Settled in place. Despite TMIT advice i built wonders!!
worker>Worker-chopped>S/H-chopped>Settler>Axe * 6.

Teched BW first then headed off to writing and Priesthood.

Zara has been a lazy boy, my 6 axemen on his borders, he has 2 warriors protecting the Greatwall. Take a look what he completed the turn before hostilies commenced.

A swift invasion of the 2nd city and Zara was spearing elephants in the next world.

Oracle was completed, CoL was taken for Confu, although i'm not going to run it. Raised a ba ba city on my southern borders, settled 3S of cap. Ruins should give +beakers event at some point.

Need to explore the rest of the continet, possibly Mansa has blocked off the rest of AI, going to REX with a vengence. Courthouse and librabry has been a popular build, Zara ex Cap will be a GP farm with NE, it has a powerful build potenial too. other city is rough but will pay for it's self as the GLig was captured.

Capital View

Will REX for the mo till more map is uncovered.

To 1020AD

Spoiler :

As planned the REX and exploration occured.

Mansa is on his own in the SW corner, Loius is hidden behind Surey and i'm not sure where Gilamesh is, islands or behind Loius i guess.

Despite some doubters, (not looking at TMIT)

Built, SoZ - have the event, TGL - have the event, Patha good for the Nat Epic, soon to start the Awatt.

I hve expanded.

Loius decided to go for an annoying DOW on Mansa, then decided i was fair game idiot. He has slowed the mighty REX and allowed his annoying Budist Sury to STEAL MY LAND. He has taken on of Mansa cities just below me.

Stupid computer put Taosim in my weakest city in the middle of all the troubles, still double gems. Soon a Fpalace in coventry to keep down maintaince of my soon to be captured empire.

I have a huge tech lead as should be expected.

One glance screen for you trainspotters!!

New plan is to pal up to Mansa, i have peace with Louis, and many catputs in build queues. Few spare Axes that weren't needed in the phoney war. I have a ruins event on MCasting so will head to Mach and upgrade Axes to Maces, tech to Enginnering. Sury has the Mids so will swing by to liberate them, then continue to Frog lands for some vengence.

View attachment NC XII AD-1020.CivBeyondSwordSave

To 1938AD

Spoiler :

1220 - GS from farm, adcademy - GM arrives Mansa cap 1600 gold (ToA)
1230 - Loius DOw on me. I upgrade 9 axes to mace.
1320 - loius peace, has lost Gao to me. AP demand peace. Bulb ED to finish.
1330 - Relise i could have defied AP stop war as only 1 city is buddist.
1370 - Bulb part PP
1470- GS Adcadmey london
1535 - Upgrade rest of axes to Redcoats. I take Rifling with Lib.

1575 - AP demands peace with Loius.

Safe in the knolwlege i have 10 turns of peace with Louis, i declare war on Sury.

I had been building trebs!!

Hamms demands AP peace. Too lazy to march over there and raise the AP.

Peace sury, redclare on Louis, take 2 cities.

AP peace again!! Vassalize Sury around 1830's

Louis culture flips one of Surys ex cities. Time to declare on Louis.

Upgraded to Infantry, Cannons etc.

Vassalize Louis, he was a vassal of Gila, sadly his master didn;t protect him, his lonbows and the odd musket weren;t up to the job.

Lost my large tech lead, take peace with Hamm,Gila,Hastp.

I own the contient. Manas recongises my Empire and for a 2nd time offers as a vassal, Gila hates him. I refuse then relant a few turns later. I tech to Mass Media, hammi has taken most of the radio wonders. I take effial and the important Christo. (After building Christo i didn;t change civics, such a waste) Build UN, ifail to realise that Mansa is 2nd highest in pop, major miscalc. i now fail a Diplo victory in 1870's. I tech for Computers. I build Internet, aquire 3 techs, another 2 before the end. Head for space. Tune 6 best cities, build SS to 3 turns till launch. Then out of the blue

Gilga had decided his pal Hammi was for the chop, he vassalizes hammi, Now Gila is 2nd in pop. i win as mansa has to vote for me.

Ironicaly i get the victory i planned for 50 turns ago.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Kingmorgan

Spoiler :

Of course you don't have to follow my advice . The reason I gave it, though, was that there is +3 worth of resources to be claimed early on - gold in BFC, nearby ivory, and gems to the south (which you don't have yet). Gems were my 3rd city, although I did some very abusive axe-locking on Zara (Dow early with a warrior at first, and just park axes in his territory forcing him to spam units and work unimproved tiles for extended periods). Just as an example, I DIDN'T oracle CoL, but had it in 950 BC. Working gold and 2x gems was a big part of that tech speed - and it also powered me to construction by around 100 BC which was very important to my military throughout the game.

Still, you denied an AI those wonders and everything has a cost/benefit to it. Hopefully you at least see the reason for my (not quite expert) advice though !

 

[Groogaroo]

Havn't played anymore turns as of yet but looking at my game again I have a few questions about going forward

The details on the spoiler are based on my last update Update - Monarch Epic - 625 AD

Spoiler :

Planning ahead and looking to my first war I'm actually thinking of getting cannons before redcoats, I can get steel a lot earlier than rifling and will probably attack Zara with Cannons/Maces. I know redcoats are awesome but they are just standard rifles until matched against other gunpowder units where they get there bonus.

So am I being crazy thinking of going steel first? I've never gone for cannons with lib always rifles and just fancy trying things differently.

Also regarding civics and whipping. I'll have education soon and to be honest most of my cities still don't have courthouses! I'm planning to switch to slavery for just to whip uni's & courts then switch back to cast. Is it worth the 2 turns of anarchy? Normally once I switch to cast I stay there. I still havn't used my one GP goldenage yet but I'm saving him for a mass unit buildup/upgrade gold type of situation.

Thanks

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ groog:

Spoiler :

Cannons will help you a lot as long as you're sure you won't be tech-matched by zara and run into massed cuirassers. Probably not. As you mentioned, redcoats are just rifles vs longbows so CR cannons might be nicer. IMO you can go either way with it but if you wanna do cannons do cannons for something different .

As for caste vs slavery I usually stay in slavery till emancipation if not spiritual so it's not something I'm familiar with. If it gets you courthouses/oxford quickly and you need the tech power go for it. Actually, you may wish to use slavery to actually produce the cannons too, since you can't draft them! The longer you wait to use a military edge, the shorter/weaker that edge is after all. You could go the guilds/caste/workshop route also though, but if you do that set it up ASAP so that you can really churn out cannons once you get there.

Believe it or not, despite warring/whipping all game I was running cottages in virtually every city , with the exception of the good hammer sites.

 

[GGS]

1200 AD debriefing

Plan 540 proved to have some merit. The principal failure to date has been making only passive use of the philisopical trait.

Spoiler :

The Ethiopians only had six chariots, perhaps a dozen catapults and a whack of archers. Five cities have fallen and one of the last three should quite soon be acquired. England remained religion-free but in 940 AD Louis XIV converted from Judaism to Suryavarman II's Hinduism which suggests the source of the first French religion was close off-shore to the east. Team Hindu is a friendly pair annoyed at Mansa Musa. Trouble brewing?
The economy is not too bad but my tech lead has erroded so I think I'll try for banking in 17 (?) turns, then look at Liberalism, rifling or steel. As to matters military I'll take the two remaining enemy cities on the land mass and dither a bit about the one across the channel from Aksum as there are no English ships. The next war? First I'll commission a couple of horse archers for a continental "good will" tour. I have engineering , may trade for civil service, build a formidable field force in the SE and play the opportunist.

So, now, the English have more of a platform for action than a plan. A religion can be adopted when necessary and there are two Great Artists available for emergency use.

 

[Groogaroo]

Ok, I'm officailly a complete idiot!!!

mini update - Monarch/Epic - 1300 AD

Spoiler :

Decided to aim for steel with libralism and wipe out Zara with cannons, been building lots of CR2 maces & trebs, I have a GP ready to spark a goldenage for wartime civics switch, whipping up cannons & upgrade gold, Libralism comes in, Grab steel, and.....

I don't have any Iron do I!

Really its moves like this that keep me stuck at prince

 

[r_rolo1]

@Groo

Spoiler :

No, it is not that kind of error that keeps you in prince ( i've made it in Emperor )

Well, it might be some iron for sale .....

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok, I'm officailly a complete idiot!!!

mini update - Monarch/Epic - 1300 AD

Spoiler :

Decided to aim for steel with libralism and wipe out Zara with cannons, been building lots of CR2 maces & trebs, I have a GP ready to spark a goldenage for wartime civics switch, whipping up cannons & upgrade gold, Libralism comes in, Grab steel, and.....

I don't have any Iron do I!

Really its moves like this that keep me stuck at prince

Spoiler :

Yikes, my bad. I forgot the Iron I had came from Zara . I was running around with knights and just assumed you'd have the iron for cannons without even thinking about where I got mine - his cities. As rolo suggests, you may wish to attempt a trade, especially if you have a nice religious friend. Otherwise, tech grenadiers, use them + trebs to capture iron, then upgrade to cannons from city capture money + whatever you can drum up...cannon upgrades aren't super expensive from trebs.

 

[Groogaroo]

Okay so maybe its not so bad after all.

Spoiler :

Grenadiers... Hmmm... Not a bad idea I think I'll roll with that, military science is only 9 turns away. Thanks!

I can't believe I forgot I didn't have Iron just took it for granted really!

 

[KingMorgan]

@ Kingmorgan

Spoiler :

Of course you don't have to follow my advice . The reason I gave it, though, was that there is +3 worth of resources to be claimed early on - gold in BFC, nearby ivory, and gems to the south (which you don't have yet). Gems were my 3rd city, although I did some very abusive axe-locking on Zara (Dow early with a warrior at first, and just park axes in his territory forcing him to spam units and work unimproved tiles for extended periods). Just as an example, I DIDN'T oracle CoL, but had it in 950 BC. Working gold and 2x gems was a big part of that tech speed - and it also powered me to construction by around 100 BC which was very important to my military throughout the game.

Still, you denied an AI those wonders and everything has a cost/benefit to it. Hopefully you at least see the reason for my (not quite expert) advice though !

@TMIT

Spoiler :

Only a little joke with you. Had i been a Noble level player i would have followed your advice, it was the right advice. I'll always take wonders just for culture/denial/usefulness. In this case SH saves building/whipping moments, which is a clear advatage. On the map the 3rd border pop was required to take the copper, without it you have to wait for the settler to be built, tech the wheel, connect the 2nd city (or mine, if you didn't settle the coppper). Personally i think stonehenge is a must if your not creative or deity.

Just read your write up, very surpised you didn;t axe rush Zara. In this save does AI start with Archery on Emp? Or did you not get copper connected in time?

 

[Groogaroo]

Okay so maybe its not so bad after all.

Actually maybe it is that bad!

Spoiler :

Things have gone a bit screwy in my game, played up till 1500AD and I'm about to retire.

After my mistake with the Iron I went for Military science for Grenadiers instead. Built a huge stack of Trebs/Grens prepared to Declare on Zara... and Sury declares on me.

It takes my stack 6 turns to get to the Sury frontline, I had to aggresivley whip all my commerce cities TWICE! in the south to repel Sury until the rest of my troops arrived. Fought sury, eventually taking most of his cities, but... neglected my border with Zara.

Sury became a vassel to Zara, Zara Dow'd me and began picking off my lightly defended cities in the North! I had to whip all my commerce cities in the North but didn't really help much. All my troops were in Surys lands about 12 turns away!!!

I'm retiring because I've whipped the hell out of my cottage cities and really destroyed my economy keeping too many of Sury's cities, I'm starting to fall behind in tech except for military techs, problem is I can't produce enough troops to take advantage of it!

Really didn't have enough production cities in this game for war.

 

[Krick19]

Ouch groo.

Anyways I need some help.

I'm doing pretty well, but I'm still a bit behind in tech, and way behind in power. I don't have much time to write a report, but if someone could look at my save and give me a few pointers, that would be great.


1540 AD save below.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can do it, but probably not today - I just got home after doing school/work for 12 hours straight (although I'm clearly a forum presence at work )...so I'll hold off on analyzing saves.

That's a shame groo - diplomacy is one of the keys to this game at all levels:

Spoiler :

I mentioned it in my "tip to beginners" but of course couldn't spoil anything there ("choose religions carefully to avoid nasty surprises"). Sury is a dangerous, dangerous zealot if not in his religion, which prompted both my immediate attempt to spread it to him, and then when he adopted buddhism like louis I followed him over. Sury is hell when not in your religion, but one of your best friends when he is (comparable to sal, izzy, zara, and all other zealots). His favorite civic is OR, which I was also in all game for this reason! This was important because if I didn't do it, I'd have been toast before 200 AD with all the zara warring I was doing .

You're on pace to winning on monarch - you had the regular empire management pieces in place here, even with a blunder in terms of resources (which I apologize for not noticing). A little bit more diplomacy would have seen surprise DoWs being nearly impossible - friendly AIs won't take your enemies as "peaceful" vassals because that means a DoW! Other than that, you did well. Note that you out-teched me all game on a lower difficulty level, which means you had more than enough tech power to win militarily! I didn't have rifling, liberalism, chemistry, or even MT at the end of my game (I think I traded astro for a lot of stuff last second, including PP to make my beakers look cool there). Granted, this is somewhat the consequence of warring all game, but still! Don't give up, you have Monarch in your grasp, and you're very close! First one is always the hardest...get it in NC XIII

Edit: Never mind I lied Krick. My thoughts:

Spoiler :

Shame that Zara got the AP in your religion, you won't be cheesing out like I did .

I'd have placed hastings for more food...

Canterbury/warwick seem to be working unimproved tiles, so be sure to improve those ASAP. Merchants IMO are not efficient in warwick, while coventry seems to be functioning well as a GP farm.

Merc is good since you have a vassal - you're not feeling much negative effect from it like you might otherwise especially since you only have 2 routes/city atm.

I have to hate on caste here - I don't see how it's helping you at all relative to slavery. You're working maybe 1-3 workshops empire wide, and other than that it's only seeing use in your GP farm, but I don't see a bulbing strategy that merits holding down only scientists, so you may wish to convert to slavery. IMO you want free speech ASAP also - it will help you a lot more than B. at this point.

Since you got the mids (which I admittedly shake my head at somewhat for no industrious/stone), you do have another option here - get stock exchanges up and rush buy like crazy once you hit rifling. You have some distance on the AIs on the rifling race. IMO you can go that route, or consider using nationalism and drafting, which will probably require more culture infrastructure...your pick if you wish to use a redcoat war.

IMO if you're quick you can redcoat both zara and MM to death. Your power is ok if not a little scattered. I'd prioritize either siege now or CR maces for upgrades, no need for muskets.

Overall you're doing pretty good - IMO you can win this and have a reasonably certain path toward doing so if you play your cards correctly. Do keep an eye on french culture, although he seems a long ways off atm.

 

[Groogaroo]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

diplomacy is one of the keys to this game at all levels

Agreed funny though when I'm playing a peaceful culture or space win I have no problems with Diplo as soon as I throw war into the picture it all goes wrong. I got too sidetracked into one thing with this game and lose focus on the other aspects.

Sury is a dangerous, dangerous zealot if not in his religion, which prompted both my immediate attempt to spread it to him, and then when he adopted buddhism like louis I followed him over.

Yeah, this was actually a tricky one in my game, Sury was hindu, the only hindu in the game so I opted for buddism along with Zara & Mansa. Zara swapped out when he founded the Jewish faith. Really should have thought about possibly swapping to free religion after lib.

even with a blunder in terms of resources (which I apologize for not noticing).

While I'd like to blame you that was totally my fault, all credit goes to me on that one , no need to apologize. I really appreciate the tips you've been giving me, thanks.

Thinking about it again, after sury Dow'd I shouldn't have decided to take his lands instead of Zara's (Sury's lands were mostly quiet nasty) should have just defended sued for peace and then moved on to Zara.

I may replay this from just before the Sury DoW to see how I could do things better.

Thanks again for the advice

 

[Anomander Rake]

Update:

I haven't had a chance to play at all since Monday's start - I have barely had time to check my emails. I do have an evening free tonight and will make my first moves then.

I have been able to log into this thread from work, the temptation to look at the spoilers is really high, but I have managed to resist so far. I'd only be cheating myself anyway, but I'd still like to try this 'on my own'.

AR