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NOT ANOTHER STONE AGE MOD ... for BTS 3.17

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by The_Triturador, Oct 10, 2008.

  1. Danthor

    Danthor Warlord

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    ¿Eres chileno Triturador?
     
  2. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Hi there ... No, I'm Peruvian. I suppose you though that because of the Main Screen of the Mod. I think that picture fits well. :D
     
  3. maxbjr

    maxbjr Warlord

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    Great mod, I like it alot. I did notice you do have to play on marathon or the techs come in way too fast.
     
  4. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Thank you man :) ... I think I will increase (only a little) the costs in the next version. It will also bring new events and some other good stuff ;). I'm already working on it :goodjob:
     
  5. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    It's an intersting mod. I feel that it needs to come in three different flavours though:

    1. Stone Age to Classical only. (To stress the Stone Age Environment)
    2. Stone Age to Present Day (Current Mod)
    3. Stone Age to Future (Use Next War as the future techs)

    I suspect it'd also fit in very well with Rise of Mankind or Thomas War.

    Finally, and you'll have to forgive my ignorance if they don't historically fit here, but how about a game option that allows to you turn on... dinosaurs?
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I to think it would work well with Rise of mankind but suspect that it would take a great deal of work to mak the fit work. For starters RoM has totally different food production and consumption parameters.

    Personally I am trying to make an extension to Stone Age which uses the vasinity bonus mod to add in some small economic "world wonders" to match the archaeological evidence for trade pre bronze age. However I keep hitting my head against my own ignorance:wallbash:

    No dinosaurs but mamoths and sabertooths would be nice :)
     
  7. Crazy_Ivan80

    Crazy_Ivan80 Chieftain

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    (pre-)historically there's no reason to diminish the amount of food you get when going sedentary as the first sedentary people continued to apply the methods of their hunter-gatherer forefathers. In fact, the first sedentary peoples didn't even engage in agriculture as is generally understood (i.e. a conscious effort to grow food) but rather as a recurring accident on the borders of several biotopes. Which is why the societies of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic crashed and burned before giving rise to a sustained neolithic revolution.
    Maybe fleshing out the transition between nomadic pre-neolithic to sedentary pre-neolithic to sedentary neolithic might help? (better to ignore nomadic neolithic though, I imagine it being hard to incorporate into a regular civ-game)
     
  8. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    That is a great idea. I'll first finish the standard version of this mod (there is still much to do and I'm working on it right now ;)) As soon as I have a finished version (before thinking on more ideas) with the complete TXTs loaded I will take your idea on work :goodjob:

    Yeah ... I know what you mean. You are right when you say that dimishing the amount of food from Seeds Camps is a mistake. I was planning to change that and also make the Farms spread one more food than normal game (Food per Citizen will have to increase from 2 to 3 just to keep the balance as well as other tips).

    This first attempt of my MOD is planned to fit with the standard Civ4 game so everybody can still have fun with their current maps after finishing the Stone Age Era. I really had more Techs on mind at first but AI's behavior wasn't what I expected. I don't think it would be fun if AI's level reduces. But when I did those tests I wasn't using Better AI's DLL. I think Better AI's DLL incorporation really helps AI in taking better decisions about how to improve its development. That is one of the reasons why I will gradually keep adding more techs (that will emphasize Earlier Eras and also make them fit better with history). The other one is to see what people (current players) thinks about those changes. A great idea is the one from Jabie. Making a Stone Age to Classical Mod would let the Mod emphasize eralier eras better but I want to finish the Standard idea first. I'll be introducing more ideas/stuff as new versions come out. Those will include many of the recommendations set in this forum. I'll keep stressing the earlier eras (historicaly true :mischief:) as well as players enjoy it.

    By the way ... thanks for you recommendations :D. Two reasons why I uploaded this MOD was to share it with everybody and also to get a better concept that will guide its development into better and more complete versions :)

    Pd: What do you think about changing the Farms behavior and leaving the Seed Camp's food amount? :confused:
     
  9. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    So ... I've spent many hours today just to undestand Python code :crazyeye:. Finally I've managed to make great stuff with it (actually for events). I'm adding many pretty good stuff for the next version (not only events) and I'm sure (also I hope :lol:) many of you will enjoy it :D. Well, I just posted this message to let you know that Stone Age Mod is still improving :eek:

    Thanks for those who have already tried this MOD. And for those who hasn't tried it yet, I recommend you to do it :lol:.

    Pd: I apologize with everybody if I'm taking too long for the next version :mischief:.
     
  10. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    It's better when you carefully plan and get stuff in as you go than you quickly put "a lot of cool things" in and end up with a "messed up" unbalanced project.

    Take your time, you know, we DO understand that you have a life too so there's no need to apologize :).
     
  11. KingArthur666

    KingArthur666 Warlord

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    What?!? A modder having a life? I thought that was against the rules.
     
  12. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    Looks very interesting!!

    *Subscribed*

    One thing you can do (or I will soon :p) is describe all the new things explicitly.

    For example:

    * 1 new Civilization
    Spoiler :
    Digiton
    - UU: Epic Awesome Pretorian (99 strength swordsman available at Bronze Working. 3 Hammers. Can nuke tiles. Can start golden ages. If it dies, 2 Epic Awesome Pretorians appear on that tile to take it's place
    - UB: Epic Awesome Bank (Available at Mysticism, +1000% :gold:, +1000% :beakers:, No unhappyness, or unhealthiness in this city.


    * 5 new Leaders
    Spoiler :
    Lord DigitAwesomeness (Cha/Spi/Pro/Ind/Fin/Agg)

    etc. etc. etc.

    In fact, screw it. I will do all that for you. Tommorow. With real values (after I download it, as I have no idea what civs / units / etc. are available...)
     
  13. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Yeah ... you are right. You say you will do it for me :p. I would really appreciate is because now I'm really busy with the Events. Right now I'm working on them. I'm using Python pretty much and also I'm getting myself sure they work :crazyeye:. That takes too much time. If you really can do it it would be helpful. But you will have to send me the HTML in a notepad because only the one who created the thread can edit the 1st (and principal) post. However, thanks for your kindness :goodjob:
     
  14. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Jeje ... you are right man. Thank you :D

    That's fun, but also true. Anyway, I really enjoy doing this. :crazyeye:
     
  15. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Warlord

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    This is wonderful, with much potential! Thanks for sharing it. Haven't played through to ancient/classical era yet (started waay back at the beginning), but I do have some comments/suggestions:

    1) Animals: I occasionally see a 'barbarian' elephant unit instead of the 'animal' version. I also do not 'see' pandas, just grizzlies. I like the suggestion for adding ice age animals: sabertooth, mammoth, etc.

    2) Gatherers: An animation or icon for the gatherer developing the tile would be helpful, as I initially thought they had vanished only to realize later that they had done their job.

    Some suggestions:

    1) Would like to see the hunting/gathering/nomadic angle developed more. I forget where I saw it, but there was a mod/scenario (Charlemagne? Mongols? maybe in Warlords?) which had a nomadic settler unit from which new units were created. If something like this can be implemented, perhaps hunter/gatherer units would not be consumed but would be sent out within the fat-cross radius of the nomadic settler. The nomadic-settler would have to have some way of accumulating/holding gathered-items (hunted/gathered/acquired items are converted into some combo of food/hammers/science?). Similarly, for activities like mining, perhaps a seasonal camp which functions like a colony (from earlier versions of Civ) would work? Also, in terms of hunting, increase the overall number of animals but instead of just using them for nuisance/unit-promotions, why not have them increase food stores for the tribe? At least, this could be done for large/herd animals. Mammoths would also provide materials and building supplies (hammers). Some animals could increase culture in a pre-religious sense (e.g. big cats). Herd animals like bison/deer/camels would have defensive value only and cannot attack, but obviously could still injure the hunters.

    2) I like the epic sweep of time, but that leads us to only one thing: dynamic ice age(s). Perhaps this is already in there and I have not encountered it yet. There is a dynamic winter effect in the Road To War mod. There could be technology(s) which would help tribes survive the ice age. From the animals-revision above, animals with thick hides could increase health, countering the ice age which could have a decrease-health effect. Like RTW, ice age should not affect entire planet, only the areas closer to the poles and in mountainous areas (latter may not be easily/effectively programable).

    3) Wealth. Not sure if there should be so much wealth changing hands in the stone age. Villages usually give coins. Units cost maintenance. THis is fine for (later) societies which have monetary systems and standing armies. What was the 'wealth' of the stone age? Wasn't it in more practical items, such as tools, weapons, furs (clothing)? There were unique/religious/rare/art-like items of value (shells, feathers, gems, metals, etc.), but weren't these rare and that true-wealth were the items that allowed for the tribe to thrive? Probably difficult to incorporate into the Civ system, especially since at some point there would be a changeover to a monetary economy. Perhaps it can be reflected in the civics?

    4) Additional minor tribes. Beyond the barbarian-uprising phase, perhaps there could be other small nomadic tribes which could become allies or victims? Taking their nomadic-settler would add the unit to your tribe. Allying with them would boost culture/science.

    5) Science. How did nomadic tribes acquire knowledge? Through contact with others? Through repeated exposure/experience? Shamans/Healers became repositories of this knowledge. Perhaps number-of-exposures (accumulated like a quest?) to specific animals, specific resources, other tribes, allows your tribe to increase its science? Again, this is pre-settlement when most everything should be considered portable/impermanent. Until villages were founded there wasn't much time to sit around "thinking great thoughts". Visiting villages/other-units/etc could provide X-points of science (as well as the occasional map, free tech, and some wealth but less than now -- perhaps a tech-discovery is required before 'wealth' means anything?). Similarly, visiting competing civs should boost the science rate more than most other methods - but only if you physically visit them (there was no way in the stone age to just call up a rival-civ's ruler to chat! - entering Ancient Era could enable the usual Civ diplomacy feature).

    6) food -- to add to the thought about no-wealth/maintenance. Stone Age units would need maintenance, but it wouldn't be money -- it would be food and hammers. Again, perhaps a civic handles this.
     
  16. johny smith

    johny smith Deity

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    We got the moving camp to using yields in the WoC working at this point, but no python popup choices yet to make units. Anyway if you are interested.
     
  17. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    This is a known bug for many many many many mods... if you de-select the "Frozen Animations" it *should* fix that problem.

    Its either that, or "Single-unit graphics". But I am 80% sure it is Frozen Animations.

    If de-selecting both of those still doesn't fix the problem, then it is a big (ish) bug... but I am reasonably sure that the fix is honestly that simple...

    [Edit]Confirmed. On my family computer which is literally 10000000 times better than my laptop, I have proper pictures, and not the War Elephant symbol

    Deselect Frozen Animations if you wanna see the pretty pictures.[/Edit]
     
  18. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Warlord

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    Another suggestion:

    7. Prehistoric Wonders = new resource-tile. Tribes are nomadic, but can create wonders like the Lascaeux (sp?!) Caves. In Civ terms, you are a non-settled tribe creating a permanent wonder with no city to put it in. So, allow the civ (i.e., you or the AI) to place this wonder somewhere on the physical map as a new resource tile. Or have the game place it somewhere in the current fat-cross of the nomad-unit: like those events which say such-and-such square had a boon happen to it. Haven't played long enough to discover/build other wonders, but something like the Caves, even if its main effects expire, is something that would have benefit on into classical/later times. THis benefit wouldn't (cannot) be a building in a city in Civ terms (i.e., there is no such thing as a 'city' yet), so it has to be something tied to a location. Perhaps it is a new resource tile (some mod I played in CIV-III I think had an ancient ruins resource?), which you benefit from on top of the tile's other benefits if you choose to settle there later.
     
  19. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Warlord

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    Addendum re fat-cross of nomad-unit. Cities have fat crosses, presumably the workable hunting/gathering zone for the nomadic tribe should be smaller -- limit the range to just the 8 squares surrounding the unit, plus auto-utilization of the square it is sitting on.

    I wonder if there is a way to build in that hunter/gatherers deplete resources and then have to move on (until the advent of settled agriculture, which allows for things like seed-planting, limited irrigation, storing the harvest, etc.). In other words, a mechanism is needed to 'force' the nomads to move around. Perhaps something where turn-1 in a location you get full-benefit in the current-square (less-benefit in surrounding squares, if worked by population/hunters/gatherers), then increasingly reduced-benefits each turn thereafter. It won't truly capture seasonal movement patterns of nomads, but is a proxy for it anyway. Additionally, if hunting of big game animals becomes lucrative, as suggested earlier, then that would be an incentive to follow-the-herds and not stay in one place (perhaps there is a mechanism to systematically move the herds around, simulating cyclical/seasonal migration patterns?).
     
  20. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    Played a quick game (abandoned because the Tectonics map script had about 5% land, and 18 civs >.< It was insanely crowded)

    Even at noble difficulty, I found that the AI can build tribes at an epic speed... seriously!! By the time I had built my first tribe (!) the AI had already got 2 out the door (for 2 cities), and a third was well under-way.

    Maybe a small tip for those trying to play? Possibly in spoiler tags?

    Its not fun starting the game several techs behind :p

    Spoiler :
    I think where I went wrong was not going for the happyness / healthiness techs, so I was stuck with 4 :) 4 :health: for the entire game. Also, another problem was that I had no forests anywhere, only 2 hills = very very very low production.
    If I were to do it again, I would research the three happyness/healthiness techs early on, and THEN go to build some tribes. I expected to build tribes immediately after researching the unlocking tech... but I was miles down the tech tree before my population was anywhere near a suitable level for expanding!


    And as with the Next War mod... is the cultural victory shuffled around? Otherwise cultural victory would be MUCH too easy (especially with cave paintings hanging around for 600,000 years ;) )

    It should be increased by slightly less than the additional turns in the game. So if you have 15% more turns, then you should have around 10% higher cultural victory thresholds.

    Finally, I can't WAIT to see those Pig farms / the grains alternative. +20% :food: each !? Thats like, for a big city (size 20) with both... + 16 :food: !! Which is BETTER than +16 :health:

    I mean... it is VERY powerful... of course it requires no less than 8 resources to be that useful. If I were to make a suggestion, I would reccomend that you nerf it by removing the +25% production with cow/sheep/pig/corn etc. etc. etc., and reduce the bonus from +5%, to just +3% (For a maximum of +24% food, or +9.6 food.

    I wouldn't want to obsolete that building, however, as many cities will be requiring it to survive.

    I haven't got that far yet, and I have an assignment to validate (I am not going to get many marks, but it sure beats failing the paper for not completing an assignment :p ), and if there is something I am missing, please tell.
     

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