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NOT ANOTHER STONE AGE MOD ... for BTS 3.17

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by The_Triturador, Oct 10, 2008.

  1. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    I've found a bug that always triggered the same event. Please, download the new StoneAge file (StoneAge1.53.rar) from the main thread. This is a very important fix so you must download it if you don't wan't to have problems on your gameplay :sad:. I've also brought more balance for event-triggers and the new DLL is included. Please, see the Changes_Log for more details.

    The file will be uploaded in about 30 minutes from now (see thread time :crazyeye:). Please, tell me if there are some other inconvenience found.
     
  2. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    What was the event that kept on triggering??

    But I might as well give it a try on the old computer, while I wait :p Coco giving +8 commerce and +2 production on the tile... for a penalty of 2 :mad: in the nearby city, and 1 :mad: in all cities?

    Drop the 1 :mad: in all cities, and I will not cottage coco :p But I have to say... 2 food, 2 hammers, 10 commerce (riverside financial civ), is a VERY nice tile, so the +1 :mad: is worth it...

    [Edit]Actually... it's not as good as I first thought. A US late-game cottage on that space would give 2 food, 1 hammer, and 10 commerce, but no 2 :mad: penalty.

    That said, coco would be nice if the nearby city just gave 1 :mad: ... and otherwise treat it as an early, late game, cottage... but if it clumped, you would have a large (ish) problem!!

    It makes for interesting things... so if it clumps (like cotton does) then it should be just 1 :mad:. Otherwise, a 2 :mad: nearby penalty would be fine...[/Edit]
     
  3. yendor

    yendor Chieftain

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    Does this new version fix the following bug I have encountered in acouple of my games;

    When I was building a tribe one of my exploring units opened a hut and got a tribe. The game immediately cancelled my tribe production and awarded me gold vis a vis a wonder being halted and would not let me select a tribe/settler to be gin new production. Very strange indeed. BTW, love the mod but can't we come up with something like sabre toothe tigers or woolly mammoths to replace the werewolf?
     
  4. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Hi ... Well, Tribes are National units and you can only have one of them on the game board. Also, tribes can only be built on capital cities. Maybe you are asking why I did this? It's very simple ... we don't want AI to build lots of them and get many cities so early in the game. Also this allows it (AI) to focus on other needs. I have made a test of that behavior and you are right. But after using the gifted tribe, you can build another from your capital. Well ... that happened in the test I did (right after reading your post). But I think it's not very logical to receive money and lose the tribe production when receiving it (because it's supposed to be a nomad tribe). I'll change it in the next upgrade :) (with other reported bugs/weaks). I have an idea of how to do it without changing the properties of the present Tribe. Thanks for reporting it :goodjob:, and keep enjoying this Mod :D

    PD: About the prehistoric animals, I'll try to find someone to help me with that ... or I'll try to do it myself. It would be very nice to have those animals in the MOD :D.
     
  5. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    I am going to play an entire game, even if it kills me ;)

    A few comments:

    For some reason, a few civs do VERY well... and others ... seem to get stuck !?

    Case in point.

    RNG gives me Lizzie of England (You nerfed Financial :( At least give it a few more cheap buildings, if you are going to increase the cap... but at least the cap was raised, which was a good thing to do ;) )

    Run into Wang Kon early on... and then meet Monty.

    Oh no... I can only imagine how fast he will kill me, right?

    Well... all civs REX like no tommorow... By the time I have 3 cities, they have 9. I manage to grab 5 cities, after being the first to Sedentary Lifestyle, and then run into MASSIVE GPT problems... falling to a pathetic 20% science. I keep at that rate for most of the game.

    Problem #1 rares it's ugly face: Inflation. By the time I hit the middle ages, I am running at well over 100% Inflation. Without Markets, or guilds, this REALLY hurts me.

    Then, I try to get some more units. Wang Kon beelines the religious techs, and gets Hinduism, Judaism, AND Confusism... I beeline the economic techs, and try and break even. However, it is soon hopeless, as (ATM) I am at least 10 techs, and possibly 12, behind the main tech leader: Wang Kon.

    Meanwhile, I check up on Monty... and notice that his seed camps are STILL giving +1 :food: and +1 :commerce:.

    Surprisingly, Monty is NOT researching Sedintary Lifestyle... in fact, with his entire hyper-empire reliant on the seed camps +1 :commerce:, researching Sedentary Lifestyle would, literally, kill his economy. And so he waits till the last minute.

    By which time I have swordsman. Iron vs. Stone is no contest. And his resent technological breakthrough has put his economy so far into the red, that he has strikes throughout his empire, to the bare minimum. It is amusing to see Stone Axemen appear as partisan troops (You haven't got any patches working, by the sounds of it), and the very next turn, go on strike. I wipe him out, as each city has only 1 troop on it...

    By now it is 1800. Yes, it surprised me too. And whats more, I am third in tech, and someone is between me and Wang Kon. That means, with inflation, and (possibly) poor timing, the most advanced civilisation in the early 1800's is a mid-medieval civilisation!!

    I have disabled Time Victory, but I assume someone is gonna get an easy culture victory...

    So here are my two suggestions:

    #1: Nerf Inflation. Maybe have it that you don't get any inflation at all, until Sedentary Lifestyle? I dunno how exactly you can do it... but it needs to be reduced, as it is styfling EVERYONES empires... I have only recently hit about 50%, and that is with the pillaging of the Aztecs!!

    #2: Make seed camps obsolete with... I dunno... Writing? Make Stone Workshops obsolete with Iron Working (or Bronze Working, maybe). That will mean that the destruction, and mass starvation of many civilisations will NOT occur as soon as you get to Sedentary Lifestyle. It will make the transition from nomadism to cities easier, and the AI, if it doesn't get it early, gets laughably behind (Early 1700's: Aztecs still haven't got cities, they are just a series of nomadic tribes that cover over half the continent)

    It is amusing, however, to see swords vs. Stone axemen ;) Merging with a reduced version of the revolutions mod (as it would be hard, in the early game, so maybe give a larger base stability, and also reduce the effects of nationality by a half?) would be very cool, but you might want to leave that until the game is more developed and balanced. But this is a great game, and its cool to see advanced civs, vs. old ones.

    A great possible scenario... Terra map, no barbs. Get 2 early game civs (Like the Aztecs and the Incans) in addition to all of the regular ones, and put them ice-locked in the early game. Then, by the time civs are reaching the mid-classical eras (Say... 50% of all other civs have iron working), then plop those two civs in the middle of the new world, and then, later on, see a backward civ, and try and colonise them. Simulation of real world, FTW!!
     
  6. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Hmmm what game speed are you playing? I've been playing on Marathon and on a Giant size map and don't have those INFLATION problems.
    I also have 4 cities and manage a 70% of science when entering the Classical era. But, maybe you need to low your cities maintenance costs with Courthouses. Well ... I haven't entered the Medieval era yet ... I'll keep playing tomorrow to see how it comes. About stuck civilizations, I've noticed something similar with Monty. I'll think on something to force them make the transition xD. By the way ... I've calculated the other game speeds with mathematic proportions. Well, tomorrow I'll see how the games goes when reaching Renaissance era. :D ... Thanks for the reports :goodjob:
     
  7. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    Epic speed.

    Here is a save game of 1895 (I think)... it isn't nice.

    I have got caravels about 25 years prior to this event (O.o), and finally reach someone, I recognise as either the Dutch, or the Carthagians... Then the next turn, I meet someone...



    Lincoln!? I double check my settings, to make sure I haven't enabled unrestricted leaders... sure enough, I haven't. Click "There will be peace in my time"...

    Gandhi?? OK... OK... peace

    Loius?? Whats up with these people?? I only wanted to see one person, and unless they are all on one city... oh no...

    I meet Hannibal. And if you haven't guessed already... he is master of the entire continent. He isn't THAT strong... but his techs are.

    He is 4 or 5 techs ahead of me (which is normal, I had a terrible start. Jungle to the south, coast to the west, Monty to the east, and desert to the south), but his vassals are laughably behind.

    From most tech to least:


    Korea: Tech Gods. Although, in economic techs, they are worse than me, in every other aspect, they are MILES ahead of me. I just want Korea to communicate with Carthage, so that I can trade techs -.-

    Carthage: I am much better economically, but there are many dead-end, and marginally useful techs that I am missing. However, Carthages strength lies in it's vassals... they are weak for now, but they will get stronger, very quickly.

    Me: I have prioritised the lower edge of techs, meaning I am OK economically, but I am miles behind in religious, and cultural techs.

    And then there is a drop, of not 1, but 2 eras!!

    India / America: Barely post-sedentary. They have agriculture, and fishing, but that is about it. They must be so over-expanded, that they must almost be dead!! I look forward, if they don't advance too quickly, to crushing thier Archers, with my Redcoats (Making a new record for "What is the most unbalanced tech difference you have seen?)

    And then... the wooden spoon goes to...

    France. These guys, in 1900, are still not even sedentary, and are lacking another tech!! They have over expanded, and the increased inflation is meaning that these guys are now stuck, permanently, at 0% science, living off the 1 free beaker they get... Its pathetic, quite honestly...

    Basically, the AI seems to over-expand. This means that they are miles behind in tech, always. If they could tone down the expansion, then it might be OK... but they are expanding far too much, before they get currency, and/or courthouses.

    [Edit]Screw it... I am going to play as the French ;) Hopefully, I can make something of that mess :p[/Edit]
     
  8. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Wow ... that's pretty fun :mischief:. I was thinking about the inflation rates and you are right, I'll have to re-calculate the inflation rates because there are many more turns in this game. Also, I'll have to force AI to get Sedentary Lifestyle. With workers and Cottages, I think they will be able to continue developing :p. However, I'll play a game without the MOD just to have an idea of when inflation rate starts to grow (there is one parameter that specifies how much turns must have been played in the game to let inflation rate increase, if I'm not wrong). After that, I want to have a look of how inflation rate increases between era transitions. That will let me make a better estimate of how inflation rate should grow :). I'll start the tests today ;).

    Thanks for the comments and reports :goodjob:
     
  9. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    I've been checking a game I started in the vanilla Civ4 game and now I understand how Inflation parameters work. I made a mistake because I though they worked different :crazyeye:. Well, I'll adjust them now and will make some other minor changes. Update will be ready very soon :D ... I'll make some tests before uploading it.

    Pd: Also I'll make sure AI will get the Sedentary Lifestyle tech :crazyeye:
     
  10. Kimbal

    Kimbal Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot for all the improvements, I'll try starting another game this weekend.

    Great job so far
     
  11. NonPrayinMantis

    NonPrayinMantis Warlord

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    Hola Triturador!

    I've been trying your mod out this past week and I must say it is pretty good.

    I definitely agree with digitCruncher that over-expansion is killer to the economy of the AI empires. In all the games I have played so far, the largest empire is usually the most backward.

    For instance, in the first game I played (and finished with a AP diplo win) the most advanced empire was the Germans - and they only had four cities! In that game I was isolated (with Monty :eek:) on a fairly large continent which after killing Monty off, I took completely over and then teched alone until I beelined optics and met the other civs. I wasn't the first to sedentary lifestyle (that was the Germans) but I emerged as tech leader (on Prince level).

    One thing that I noticed is that the hammer costs of buildings are extremely high in your mod - about twice as much as normal. That is one thing that I would change. For instance, a regular speed barracks is 50 :hammers:, 150 on marathon, but your barracks is 102 :hammers: on regular speed and 306 :hammers: on marathon! Plus, the thing obsoletes after gunpowder and you have to build another one called the garrison which costs twice as much!

    The sequence of experience giving buildings is good in your mod. First, the stone weapons workshop, which obsoletes at bronzeworking. Then you have several buildings for each type of unit - the archery range for archery units(perhaps it should be buildable without pine - but at double cost - and it obsoletes way after you can't build longbowman anymore), the wheelwright for chariots only (which obsoletes long before chariots obsolete), the barracks for melee units (which also obsoletes while you can still build melee units), the siege weapons workshop (which also helps give XP to cannons), and the stable for mounted units (which no longer gives additional XP to mounteds - until the garrison). Then finally the garrison comes along and does what a barracks does in the normal game. This sequence is good but I think it has some kinks to work out. However, all of these buildings you need to build to keep your military experienced cost a lot more than normal.

    Building costs also slow the research and economy development. You have several buildings which only have short periods of use, then expire, then you have to replace them with newer ones. Then there is the river trading post which nerfs river trade until you build it - and you can only build it in riverside cities. That one I think is unnecessary.

    All in all a good mod, though - thanks for all your hard work!

    NPM
     
  12. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Yeah ... I've limited the Paleolithic and Mesolithic to build Tribes ONLY if you have less than 3 cities. It's completely right over-expansion kills AI economy at the start. They will be able to build more cities when reaching Sedentary Lifestyle. AI is supposed to develop its economy with Barter and other stuff.

    Yeah ... I think Wheel Wrights should no longer require Pine, so everybody can develop its production. It will also become obsolete with Engineering instead of Construction.

    Well ... I reduced the commerce from river tiles because players who start with rivers would have TOO MUCH ADVANTAGE in the game. Anyway, I think it can manage it so you can build them if you have river plots within your borders, not only if your city is near a river. It will also have reduced costs.

    Now I'm testing these new changes. I want to make sure AI won't lose performance in the game. It won't be interesting if it does. :D

    Yeah ... Thanks for your comments and suggestions. They really help this MOD to become a better one :goodjob:.
     
  13. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    Maybe you could have a tech that gives all river tiles +1 :commerce:...

    One thing you need to remember is to try not to add too many more buildings, or if you are, you should reduce the hammer cost... Otherwise you will never ever build some of them.
     
  14. NonPrayinMantis

    NonPrayinMantis Warlord

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    I would suggest the boating tech.

    NPM
     
  15. LeftBower

    LeftBower Chieftain

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    The stone age mod seems to be having issues on my computer. It comes up with an XML error.

    "Tag: ANIMATIONPATH_BOMBARD in Info class was incorrect, Current XML file is: xml\Units/CIV4EntityEventInfos.xml"

    Then the mod loads up fine, until I play a game, when it crashes and vista tells me it isn't working.

    Im running BTS on vista if that makes any difference. Any help? :confused: :sad:
     
  16. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Hi ... That's strange. I haven't changed the CIV4EntityEventInfos.xml file of the game so it should be loading the vanilla game file. Also, I've cheked the CIV4EntityEventInfos.xml from the BTS folder and there is no ANIMATIONPATH_BOMBARD defined. Maybe you have accidentally combined the mod with files from other. I'm making ALL THE TESTs on Windows Vista. But I haven't updated to SP1 because once I had a problem with my Civ4 Installation and I think It was because of the SP1. However, it runs ok on Vista but I can't assure it won't have problems with SP1. Try deleting the MOD folder and get another extraction from the .RAR file.

    PD: This MOD is for version BTS 3.17
     
  17. NonPrayinMantis

    NonPrayinMantis Warlord

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    I have been playing another game, and I have a few questions and observations:

    1) The scout is a worthless unit. This is because it is the only :strength: 1 in the mod. Now in the normal game, this is not a problem because the scout is good at defending against the animals that occur early. It has a +100% animal bonus that helps against animals that appear early. This gives it a modified strength of 2 against animals which is also the average strength of animals in the normal game. However, in your mod, animals have average strengths of at least 4, so scouts are just about worthless against them. Plus, scouts come along with a later tech than in the main game and this is after the time that animals appear on the map. By the time you can make scouts, you are running into regular barbarian units, not animals.

    I would suggest either making the scout available with no techs at all, or make it :strength: 2 to match enemy barbarian strength. Even though you can upgrade an atl-atl to make a scout, the only useful promotion it can get is tracker because the best atl-atl promotions are anti-animal ones.

    2) Scouts and explorers have no building that increases their experience (except for the barracks which occurs much later than they are available) which makes them somewhat weak. Shouldn't the hunting instruction and/or stone weapon workshop increase the xp of the scout, or at least have the hunting instruction give it hunting I?

    3) Did you know that the dog can capture friendly rival workers even when "aboard" the explorer? The explorer protects the dog and allows it to enter rival territory. All you have to do is find an unprotected worker and move the explorer/dog combo into its tile.

    4) The explorer (and scout I guess) can go aboard a caravel but the dog cannot. Also an explorer with a dog "on board" cannot go aboard a caravel, even with the cargo promotion.

    5) The lumbermill only gives +1 :hammers: to a forest tile. A grassland/forest with a lumbermill has 2:food:1:hammers: and a plains/forest with a lumbermill has 1:food:2:hammers:. Remember that the lumberyard is destroyed by the lumbermill so the initial hammer increase by the yard is wiped out by the mill. If you make the lumbermill give +2 :hammers: this will fix the problem.

    NPM
     
  18. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    @NonPrayingMantis: Were these changed?

    In previous versions, Scouts were 1 strength, with +200% vs. animals (Still worthless, yes, but oh well) Nonetheless, the weaknesses of scouts vs. animals is a problem that needs to be addressed. I find that animals tend to die off by themselves, before I have a chance to kill them myself... Maybe weakening the animals might be a good idea (I think I got 5 food, and 3 hammers in my last game for killing animals... total!! Then they all died), and making more animals pop up, instead of just stronger ones... That will mean that units pre-axemen have a chance against units, such as the bear (!!) I am surprised that a cave bear is almost as strong as an army of axemen!

    But the AI doesn't use the Dog/Explorer combo (I think...) Thus, if you don't do it, then there is no problem ;) But that said, I think dogs are a weak unit overall... 1 strength, with hidden nationality, and no defensive bonuses. There is nothing that that unit can kill (Except workers... but that is just cheap)

    (Question: Can you, when you get mech infantry, load a marine into it, move the mech infantry, and unload it? Thus giving the Marine 3 (or is it 2?) movement? Does the AI know how to do that (as that is really the only benefit to mech infantry with cargo space)? And finally, to prevent micro management, is it possible to modify the Python so that, when a unit with garrisoned troops inside is killed, if the tile the unit was killed on is not impassable to the garrisoned troops, then the garrisoned troops survive, instead of being killed? So if a transport (on ocean) is killed, then the marines die (as ocean is impassable to marines), but if a mech infantry (on plains) carries marines, and dies, then the marines don't die (as marines can go on plains)?)
     
  19. The_Triturador

    The_Triturador Warlord

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    Hello xD ... That depends on how you manage your Hunters. If you just build them without promoting them, then they will become a prey instead of being the Hunter :lol:. I always get many food and production to my cities using them. But remember battles are defined by probabilities so, it's possible to have too much bad luck and don't take advantage of the feature. But with the promotions you will find it easier to manage it. Well, at least I have no problems, even tough sometimes my hunter has more than 90% chances to win and he dies :lol:.

    I don't think AI understands how to use it. Maybe it knows how to, but doesn't care about it :lol:. I'll think about something better for it :crazyeye:.

    If you do it on the same turn, then you can't because after uploading a unit into a transport, you can't move it (also happens with Naval Units). But it's possible to load the units after moving them and then, one the next turn, move the Mech Infantry, unload the Marines and move them. Makes sense after all (I think :crazyeye:). But I don't think that would make much difference.

    Well ... I really did it to let the Marines approach an enemy city without recibing collateral damage (from artillery or air bombard). When you get collateral damage, many units are affected from it, so this would be helpful to push up your army (well, Marines are not enough powerful on the Future Era, but mayb you lack oil or aluminium ... who knows?) without getting weak units weaker. I haven't reach that era so far :lol:, so I'm not sure if AI use it. But I don't really think it would.

    I think it is possible. Haven't tried already, but I will later. Now I'm bringing balance to the MOD (not the force :lol:). I think I finally got it ... will have to play some more turn before confirming it ;).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks for your comments and suggestions :goodjob:
     
  20. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    You can load/unload units into transports as many times as you want. However, after loading a unit into a transport, or after moving the unit from a transport to an adjacent tile, it cannot move for the rest of the turn.

    This helps for your transports. Say you have a Chariot, in a galley. If you drop the unit of at a city (By moving the galley to the city, then using the 'unload all' command for the galley, or the 'unload unit' for the chariot), then the chariot will still retain it's 2 movement, so it can move 2 movement points immediatly after that. However, if you select the chariot, and tell it to move to an adjacent tile, it will lose ALL it's movement.

    This is how you move chariots quickly across continents, if you have an ally with roads on that continent. It also would work for marines (as you can load a unit into a transport, even with no movement, as long as the transport and the unit are on the same tile)
     

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